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LTIR - getting to the bottom of it...


Guest radoran
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http://www.capgeek.com/faq/how-does-long-term-injured-reserve-LTIR-work.php

Teams receive cap relief when a player is considered to have a "bona-fide long-term injury" — injuries that cause a player to miss at least 10 games or 24 days. This is one of the most commonly misunderstood aspects of the CBA.

Just because a player is on LTIR does not automatically grant the team extra cap space. In the event a player is placed on LTIR, his cap hit still counts toward the team's overall cap payroll. Relief only comes if replacing the player's salary pushes the team's cap payroll to date over the cap. The amount of relief is limited to the amount the team has gone over the cap (less the amount of payroll room the team had at the time the LTIR transaction took place), not the entire amount of the injured player's salary.

There is no formal designation of "replacement players."

Also, here:

http://hfboards.hockeysfuture.com/showthread.php?t=533088

It appears a player must miss 10 games before being eligible for LTIR(?)

Here's a column on our old favorite, Flyer legend Mike Rathje:

http://www.kuklaskorner.com/index.php/psh/comments/mike_rathje_and_the_flyers_cap/

It appears that Rathje never came "off" LTIR - despite "trying" to play in 2007 preseason.

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WHEN do teams get "cap relief" for players on LTIR is my main query here... If Pronger is "on LTIR" now, does he come "off" at any point and need to be put back on?

And how much relief will the Flyers get?

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Doesn't he have to be medically cleared to come off of the LTIR? I mean, ultimately he (Pronger) will be able to never be cleared to play if he does not wish to be. No test can show that he is no longer having symptoms unless he himself makes that proclamation.

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Doesn't he have to be medically cleared to come off of the LTIR? I mean, ultimately he (Pronger) will be able to never be cleared to play if he does not wish to be. No test can show that he is no longer having symptoms unless he himself makes that proclamation.

Right, this is true. I've just been trying to figure out how this all applies to the cap situation...

And the real question is whether or not the Flyers are making plans based on Pronger not coming back - ever.

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And the real question is whether or not the Flyers are making plans based on Pronger not coming back - ever.

That is the direction I hope the organization takes. If by some miracle he is able to return to his former self, I would welcome him back with open arms but it is in the best interest of the Flyers to plan like that is not going to happen.

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I think at this point only the Flyers know what they are planning on doing with Pronger, and even THEY might not have a clue yet. I am sure this is one of Homer's hot topics this summer as it significantly impacts the team's plans. I remember that was one of the questions that Homer was asked when the season has ended. I think he speculated that Pronger *may* be ready to play this season, but that was a speculation. I am guessing he goes through various tests over and over again, but I am not sure whther we will hear anything definitive any time soon.

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The problem is if he does play next year he is one hit away from looneyville and if we lose him then the window (summer time trades/signings) will have passed. That would suck to have lost out on a big time replacement player if Prongs was to get hurt again...

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@radoran Aziz is pretty knowledgeable on this topic, but I do remember reading a while back that you don't get cap relief for LTIR until the season actually starts....which kinda takes you out of the UFA market. I do think you can go over the cap during the summer (think it's 10%), but the problem is you can't really upgrade with Prongers money, because the start of the season provisiion.

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It appears a player must miss 10 games before being eligible for LTIR(?)

has to miss 10 games ON the LTIR, not before. once placed on, the player can not return to play for at least 10 games. he can be placed on the LTIR immediately after receiving an injury. can even be placed on it effective retroactively if he has already missed games before the seriousness of the injury was discovered. for example, a guy takes a puck in the hand and misses 3 games with what the team thought was a bad bruise, but xrays eventually find a break. they can put him on the LTIR effective the first game he missed due to the injury, and only have 7 left before they can bring him back. one complication is 24 calander days must also have passed, so...really, the limitation is 10 games or 24 days, which ever is longer.

It appears that Rathje never came "off" LTIR - despite "trying" to play in 2007 preseason.

that's true. same with hatcher. and primeau. they were all on LTIR until their contracts expired. rathje never made it out of training camp in 07, and was LTIR'd when the season started.

WHEN do teams get "cap relief" for players on LTIR is my main query here... If Pronger is "on LTIR" now, does he come "off" at any point and need to be put back on?

my understanding is that the injured reserve list only exists between the 1st day of the season and the last. i.e., opening day through the day the team is eliminated from the playoffs or has played their last regular season game, which ever is later. i can't find anything super specific on that, aside from these this:

16.11.a

A Player who finishes an NHL Season on the Injured Reserve List and continues to be injured and

unable to perform his duties as a hockey Player by reason of the same injury at the time

he reports to the Club's Training Camp in the next League Year, will again be eligible to

be placed on the Club's Injured Reserve List.

that and the "prior to opening day" LTIR illustrations in 50.10.d all specifically mention the player being put on LTIR on opening day.

the real details have to be in the CBA somewhere, but i haven't been able to track them down yet.

And how much relief will the Flyers get?

the flyers will be able to exactly replace pronger's salary at the moment he is placed on the LTIR, and are allowed to exceed the cap by whatever amount that requires..but ONLY the amount it requires. if they are flush up against the cap at that moment, they will be able to exceed the cap by pronger's full cap hit. if they have $2mil in cap space at that moment, they'd only be able to exceed the cap by $2.921mil...exactly enough to completely replace pronger's $4.921mil cap hit. if they were, say, $5mil under the cap at that all-important moment, they would not be allowed to exceed the cap at all.

the timing of placing players on the LTIR is critical. ideally, the team is bumping right up against the cap. whether that means delaying sending guys down to the phantoms or what, the flyers will want to completely max the cap out for opening day. this is why, i think, you see some GMs playing delaying games with placing players on the LTIR. they want to make sure they have their roster and cap number positioned to take maximum advantage of the overage allowance.

Edited by noodl
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The only things I can add to the above post by the artist formerly known as aziz is that there are a couple disadvantages for a team with a player on perpetual LTIR:

The player is off LTIR in the offseason, causing that player's salary to count against the grossed up, off season limit (grossed up by 10% under the current CBA).

The LTIR player's contract counts against the maximum number of contracts a team may have.

I believe there is also a provision related to the cap hit for a player acquired at the deadline by a team with an LTIR player but I always need help with it. Anyone?

Edited by terp
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I believe there is also a provision related to the cap hit for a player acquired at the deadline by a team with an LTIR player but I always need help with it. Anyone?

personally, i think that got made up by hockey writers who don't know what they are talking about. i can't find anything to support that in the CBA. it might be there, but i have looked for it quite a bit.

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personally, i think that got made up by hockey writers who don't know what they are talking about. i can't find anything to support that in the CBA. it might be there, but i have looked for it quite a bit.

And I now remember having exactly this same conversation with you on the Philly.com site and the fact that I couldn't find anything about it anywhere.

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the flyers will be able to exactly replace pronger's salary at the moment he is placed on the LTIR, and are allowed to exceed the cap by whatever amount that requires..but ONLY the amount it requires. if they are flush up against the cap at that moment, they will be able to exceed the cap by pronger's full cap hit. if they have $2mil in cap space at that moment, they'd only be able to exceed the cap by $2.921mil...exactly enough to completely replace pronger's $4.921mil cap hit. if they were, say, $5mil under the cap at that all-important moment, they would not be allowed to exceed the cap at all.

Thank you for this cogent explanation @aziz.

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