Defensemen

[Vanflyer]

It's kind of unnerving how similar the offensive numbers are, but Suter is far better defensively- playing along side Weber.

And he blocks shots like a maniac.

I fixed your first line. I agree Suter is better defensively, but I don't know that I would go to say "far". When Carle was paired with Pronger, he looked terrific.

Also, on the blocked shots:

2011-2012:

Suter> 116

Carle> 154

2010-2012:

Suter> 84

Carle> 157

Don't go hangin' your hat on the blocked shots because over the last two years it is not even close (carle blocks 33% more).

[icehole]

I can't believe what I am reading. I wouldn't give carle $3 mill to stay with the team. If his price is $5.25 mill, I'll pack his bags and drive him wherever he needs to go.

I like Suter but his price is a little steep. I would still go with him before I signed carle.

[AndyS]

OK - not going to respond to everyone individually here.

1. I did not equate the blocked shots with the determining factor as to Suter being better defensively than Carle. In fact, I put that all by itself as an aside. (I will admit that I was unaware of how many shots Carle has blocked.)

2. I do NOT hate Matt Carle. I have (to my knowledge) never once bashed him on this or any other hockey forum. Do I think he is a $5 or $6 million player? Absolutely not. Do I think he is a good defenseman? Yes. And his durability (especially on this team with its legendary training staff) is nothing to sneeze at.

Homer should have signed him sooner. I very much dislike the idea of drastically overpaying for him.

And do I think that Shea Weber is better? Duh. Do I think playing alongside Weber has made Suter look better? Sure, but not that much.

Who is better defensively (NOT just blocked shots!)? I think Suter is noticeably better than Carle, with or without Weber on the other side. And I think every single GM in the NHL would heartily agree with that statement.

My only point was that I was not aware of how similar their stats looked on paper. That is all.

Would I rather pay Carle $6 million or Suter $7 million? Suter. Hands-down. (And that is no insult to Carle.)

[radoran]

I can't believe what I am reading. I wouldn't give carle $3 mill to stay with the team. If his price is $5.25 mill, I'll pack his bags and drive him wherever he needs to go.

I like Suter but his price is a little steep. I would still go with him before I signed carle.

I think we can safely assume that a guy who put up 35-40-38 in the last three seasons isn't going to be taking a pay cut.

He had the second most points of any Flyer defenseman last year and lead the team D in 10-11... He's +55 over the past three seasons.

Suter put up 37-39-46. He was +39 over the past three.

Is that *really* worth $4M more than you value Carle at ($3M)?

[AndyS]

problem with yandle is you've got to give to get and i'm not wanting to give what the Phx coyotes would want to get for their best d-man. not schenn not couturier. they can f themselves.

lay low this year , the game changing players are in play next year. getzlaf , perry, webber. have some room for 100+mph righthanded shot.

I would be OK with doing exactly that. Let everyone else spend all their money this offseason - and then go after Weber & Getzlaf next offseason.

[Vanflyer]

Would I rather pay Carle $6 million or Suter $7 million? Suter. Hands-down. (And that is no insult to Carle.)

How about 5.25m to Carle v. 7M to Suter?

For me personally, I just can not rationalize 1.75m "better" in Suter vs. Carle. Better, sure. But nearly 2m better, um no.

[radoran]

Would I rather pay Carle $6 million or Suter $7 million? Suter. Hands-down. (And that is no insult to Carle.)

I wouldn't give Carle $6M. Then again, I wouldn't give Suter $7.

Someone might. Kudos to them. No insult to anyone.

I think Carle is underrated here in Philly and I think that Suter is overrated virtually everywhere.

Both good players. Not "game changers" by any stretch. Neither are worth the money you put up (IMO).

[AndyS]

How about 5.25m to Carle v. 7M to Suter?

For me personally, I just can not rationalize 1.75m "better" in Suter vs. Carle. Better, sure. But nearly 2m better, um no.

The problem is that I think Carle may get around $6 million/year. Is he really that good? No.

[Vanflyer]

The problem is that I think Carle may get around $6 million/year.

Really? I thought his open market was around 5.2 - 5.5 and all us armchair GM' here thought he would give us a home town discount (say 5). I would have rather had Erik Johnson over both (though he has not really done much with all his injuries and post trade to Colorado).

[Lindbergh31]

The problem is that I think Carle may get around $6 million/year. Is he really that good? No.

I'm all for the Flyers to resign Carle but anything above $5 million per year doesn't make sense, might as well go with Mez, Timmo, Coburn, Schenn, Bourdon and pickup a cheap 5th/6th defenseman and go after Weber next summer. Holmgren has to get away from signing players to these 7 to 10 year deals.

[icehole]

I think we can safely assume that a guy who put up 35-40-38 in the last three seasons isn't going to be taking a pay cut.

He had the second most points of any Flyer defenseman last year and lead the team D in 10-11... He's +55 over the past three seasons.

Suter put up 37-39-46. He was +39 over the past three.

Is that *really* worth $4M more than you value Carle at ($3M)?

I'm sure carle won't take a paycut and I'd be fine with him going anywhere else (especially one of the flyers' rivals).

Thanks for the stats...hadn't seen positive carle stats in like 2 minutes.

If you're a stats guy, that's fine. I watch every game and see carle's mistakes. He's not reliable and he's soft. The NHL network shows a quick highlight of him making a big hit. How long did they search for that highlight?

I don't think Suter is worth $7M either. I don't see him play enough to say he's worth that. I just want carle off the team. If they replace him with anyone, except for wideman, I'd be happy. We don't have to worry about wideman now.

[AndyS]

If Carle would have taken $4 million/year, I would have done that. $5 or $6 million/year? Just don't see it.

. . .but someone is going to pay him that much.

[AndyS]

Let's just sign a stop-gap d-man & try to sign Doan.

Make the bigger moves next offseason.

[radoran]

I'm sure carle won't take a paycut and I'd be fine with him going anywhere else (especially one of the flyers' rivals).

Thanks for the stats...hadn't seen positive carle stats in like 2 minutes.

If you're a stats guy, that's fine. I watch every game and see carle's mistakes. He's not reliable and he's soft. The NHL network shows a quick highlight of him making a big hit. How long did they search for that highlight?

I don't think Suter is worth $7M either. I don't see him play enough to say he's worth that. I just want carle off the team. If they replace him with anyone, except for wideman, I'd be happy. We don't have to worry about wideman now.

Stats are certainly one way to compare players - and an important one. Not the only one by any stretch.

I don't care if they keep Carle or not - and have set a bar at which I *might* go (but probably wouldn't) and what I think the Flyers will do at $5.25M.

I would prefer to go wih Timonen, Meszaros, Coburn, Grossmann, Schenn, MAB/Gus with Lilja because we're stuck with the cap hit anyway.

These FAs aren't worth the money. Ryan Suter could easily be the next Scott Gomez in FA lore.

[JackStraw]

I watch every game and see carle's mistakes

But you don't watch every game Suter plays, so you don't see all his mistakes. The grass is always greener on the other side, right?

[AndyS]

These FAs aren't worth the money. Ryan Suter could easily be the next Scott Gomez in FA lore.

Yikes!

No thanks!

[radoran]

Yikes!

No thanks!

Here's another one.... What team did Gomez play for and where is Parise coming from?

Yep.

[JackStraw]

Here's another one.... What team did Gomez play for and where is Parise coming from?

Yep.

Is there any way someone could sneak into Homer's office and put a picture of Scott Gomez on his desk?

[Lindbergh31]

Stats are certainly one way to compare players - and an important one. Not the only one by any stretch.

I don't care if they keep Carle or not - and have set a bar at which I *might* go (but probably wouldn't) and what I think the Flyers will do at $5.25M.

I would prefer to go wih Timonen, Meszaros, Coburn, Grossmann, Schenn, MAB/Gus with Lilja because we're stuck with the cap hit anyway.

These FAs aren't worth the money. Ryan Suter could easily be the next Scott Gomez in FA lore.

Let's face it if Carle really wanted to stay in Philly like he said, he'd already have signed for around $5 million, he's looking for a big payday and I hope Holmgren isn't stupid enough to give it to him. The defense without him isn't the greatest but it wouldn't be the worst in the league either:

Timonen-Coburn

Meszaros-Grossmann

Bourdon-Schenn

It would mean that Bryzgalov would actually have to be the goalie that the Flyers are paying him to be. Holmgren has to be looking two or three years down the road when it comes to signing players. Timonen's cap hit comes off the books after next season in which is the same time Weber becomes an UFA, also with the new cba if there is a clause to be able to buyout one player without it counting against the cap then Holmgren has to take a long look at Pronger if there is no chance of him coming back.

[TimKerrFan12]

Let's face it if Carle really wanted to stay in Philly like he said, he'd already have signed for around $5 million, he's looking for a big payday and I hope Holmgren isn't stupid enough to give it to him. The defense without him isn't the greatest but it wouldn't be the worst in the league either:

Timonen-Coburn

Meszaros-Grossmann

Bourdon-Schenn

It would mean that Bryzgalov would actually have to be the goalie that the Flyers are paying him to be. Holmgren has to be looking two or three years down the road when it comes to signing players. Timonen's cap hit comes off the books after next season in which is the same time Weber becomes an UFA, also with the new cba if there is a clause to be able to buyout one player without it counting against the cap then Holmgren has to take a long look at Pronger if there is no chance of him coming back.

Wouldn't Bryzgalov be the one to go if we can get rid of a contract? At least with Pronger we can put him and his money on the IR or whatever u call it.

[doom88]

Wouldn't Bryzgalov be the one to go if we can get rid of a contract? At least with Pronger we can put him and his money on the IR or whatever u call it.

Depends on the terms of the new CBA.

[Polaris922]

I give Suter the edge because he does everything well. I agree with the others here though in that I dunno if it's worth the extra $$ that edge is going to cost. Carle is a good defenseman on paper, and in my eyes he's right there with Suter in everything but physicality. But you guys watch him a lot more than I do, so I appreciate reading all of your opinions.

[radoran]

Let's recall for a moment how the "market" for players was created - the GMs and owners of the National Hockey League.

Leino for $4M+. Souray at $3.67M. Jokinen $4.5M. Garrison $4.5M.

Scott Gomez was a prized Free Agent who was a Can't Miss.

Chris Drury was as good as - if not probably better than - Danny Briere.

The very people who create the expectations follow through on them.

The "worth" of a player is based upon what the market will bear. If the market is limited - as it was in the Drury/Briere/Gomez sweeps with the teams that "needed" a "#1 C" - the values of players and the costs of contracts are inflated.

If you want the "best available" winger/defenseman then you have to look at Parise and Suter.

Ryan Suter is a good player. He is NOT a foundation of a defense.

Zach Parise is a good player. He is NOT the foundation of a franchise. Or the Devils would have tied him up like the Pens have Crosby and Malkin.

The Devils didn't.

Point being, tf you want to base the future of your franchise on a player who is the "best available" at your need at the immediate point your need occurs, you may not be getting the best player to fill the role you need in the long term.

[Vanflyer]

in which is the same time Weber becomes an UFA

Everyone keeps writing "go after Weber next year" type of stuff. There must be something I am totally missing here. He currently is a RFA. Poile is a very astute GM. There is no way in hell he signs Weber for only 1 year and allow him to be on the market next summer. He could do the tradeline thing, but that would handcuff him to the number of teams that he could negotiate with. If he can't get a 4-5 year / long term deal out of him, if I am Poile, I move his rights as a RFA to another team and backup the truck at Nashvilles doorsteps with a ton of assets.

[Polaris922]

Or use the cap space cleared up by Suter's departure to lock in Weber. I think the Pens are looking at Parise reasonably. Simply trying to find a scoring winger who works the corners to be on Crosby's wing. I'm sure Detroit sees him that way too.

Edited July 4, 2012 by Polaris922