Flyer "Management" - Paying Not To Play

[radoran]

Let's assume for the moment that the team buys out Briere and Bryzgalov.

Briere's buyout is $833,333 a year for the next four years in actual money.

Bryzgalov $1,642,847 a year for the next 14 years in actual money*.

Pronger is on for $7M, $4M and $575K for two years.

This effectively would mean that the Flyers are paying:

$9,476,190 in 13-14 (would be 15% of the $63.4M cap)

$6,476,190 in 14-15 (potentially 10% of a $63.4M cap)

$3,051,190 for each of the next two years

and then $1.642M a year for the next decade after that (yes, decade)

all to pay players not to play for the Philadelphia Flyers.

Then add Hartnell's $4.75M for the next six years.

It is nice to have a franchise with a corporation with $12B cash on hand behind it that can absorb these hits, but, quite frankly, if this was the Pittsburgh Penguins we'd never stop hearing about what a complete fustercluck "that organization" is.

Well, the truth hurts. That's where the Flyers are. Without a giant pile of money to paper over mistakes - and cancelling half a season to get two free "do overs" - this organization's track record is abysmal.

They spend like the New York Yankees, just without the championships.

I am pleased with the young core. I believe they have made many good moves in setting a new direction - the return on Richards/Crater was fantastic, for example.

I am just concerned that we will see another "blockbuster" offer sheet or long term deal in a "win now" move rather than a concerted plan to build around this core and produce a long term winner.

Because history suggests that's what they do.

* I expect Bryz to be bought out after next season

[hf101]

Pronger can't be bought out while on the LTIR

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

Well hopefully this lockout sent a message to cutdown on the ridiculous contracts. We did manage to move two in Carter and Richards but then just turned around and gave Bryzgalov his deal.

Unfortunately, building around this core means waiting for more picks to develop unless a lot of young players take huge leaps. Part of buying out these players is freeing up money on mistakes made to hopefully not make another mistake when trying to give that money to another free agent, because that's what will be done. Watching the team this year shows they are missing something on the blueline since Pronger and I feel with Holmgren striking out last year, he will be even more aggresive this year, which is a scary thought in itself. Hopefully, he doesn't get stupid, which I don't think he will and overpay. Honestly though, I would love to see him show off some of his trade magic and ship off Coburn or Meszaros.

[brelic]

Pronger can't be bought out while on the LTIR

rad's figures are Pronger's actual salary, not buyout terms. He has 4 years left on his deal

[flyercanuck]

@LiAmTrAnSdEmOn

Hopefully he doesn't overpay? Show off some of his trade magic?

He overpays on half the contracts he signs. His trade magic includes sending the equivalent of 7 - 1st round picks (Lupul, Downie, Sbisa, all 1sts and 4 - 1st round picks) off and all he has to show for it is undersized- Dman prospect Shayne Gostibehere. He throws in 2nd round picks in every other trade he makes. He traded a young athletic up and coming now Vezina contending goalie for a 2nd and 2- 4ths. He's got 5 or 6 totally useless players being paid about 1/3 of the teams capspace for doing squat. He trades the teams top 2 centers in a youth movement and signs a 31 year old goalie to a lifetime contract at the same time. He has no plan that he sticks to he just wings it. I hope he doesn't do anything.

[brelic]

He trades the teams top 2 centers in a youth movement and signs a 31 year old goalie to a lifetime contract at the same time. He has no plan that he sticks to he just wings it. I hope he doesn't do anything.

Yeah, this is really a headscratcher. We all know the Bryz signing is almost exclusively on Snider's shoulders (at least the directive, but not necessarily the terms). But I completely agree with you. Why sign a 31 year old goalie until he's 40 when you just traded for FOUR guys in their early 20s who will be the new identity of the team?

ANd then trade away the one goalie who was perfect to grow and develop with them?

It's very schizophrenic.

[flyercanuck]

@brelic

And if YOU'RE going to be schizo, why not bring in a goalie on the same wavelength...Cechmanic, the bipolar goaler.

[Clarke2Leach]

@LiAmTrAnSdEmOn

Hopefully he doesn't overpay? Show off some of his trade magic?

He overpays on half the contracts he signs. His trade magic includes sending the equivalent of 7 - 1st round picks (Lupul, Downie, Sbisa, all 1sts and 4 - 1st round picks) off and all he has to show for it is undersized- Dman prospect Shayne Gostibehere. He throws in 2nd round picks in every other trade he makes. He traded a young athletic up and coming now Vezina contending goalie for a 2nd and 2- 4ths. He's got 5 or 6 totally useless players being paid about 1/3 of the teams capspace for doing squat. He trades the teams top 2 centers in a youth movement and signs a 31 year old goalie to a lifetime contract at the same time. He has no plan that he sticks to he just wings it. I hope he doesn't do anything.

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

I agree on the overpayment part, that does seem to be a bit of a problem, but for most part his trades have worked out well. The only glaring mistake being the Bobrovsky deal. The other guys you mentioned were dealt in the Pronger deal which was fair and was a huge contributing factor in a Stanley Cup appearance. Downie is now on his third team and never really showed to be anything better than a 2nd line player at best. Him being shipped for Matt Carle looked like a good deal until Carle wanted 5.5 million a year. He took over this team in the throes of one of the worst seasons in the history of the franchise and pulled off some deals to turn it around very quickly. An aging fast Forsberg got pawned off to the Preds for Upshall, Ryan Parent, and pick that was traded back for Hartnell and Timonen. As well as flipping Freddy Meyers for Alexei Zhitnik, and then dealing Zhitnik for Coburn. Those deals shaped the Flyers franchise and allowed them to rebound from that horrific year. Why is it inconceivable to think that Holmgren can pull off similar deals again?

[radoran]

Pronger can't be bought out while on the LTIR

rad's figures are Pronger's actual salary, not buyout terms. He has 4 years left on his deal

Exactly. I am assuming, perhaps rashly, that Pronger is not going to be playing.

One needs to think how many other teams in the league can afford to pay out $20M over four years to three players who aren't playing for them and then another $14M over the next decade for one of them to keep not playing for them.

And then one might wonder what's really screwing up the financial situation in the NHL - the "teams with no fans" in Florida or the big spenders piling huge sums of money on the ground and lighting it on fire.

[flyercanuck]

@LiAmTrAnSdEmOn

When Homer first signed on, I liked his deals. His earliest were definately some of his best. But recently he's gone back to the "win now at all costs" philosophy that has never won us anything, and left our farm system in shambles. You keep sending first round picks out for useless or old players it's going to come back and bite you in the arse.

[flyercanuck]

@Clarke2Leach

LOL! One of the greatest movies ever.

[radoran]

@LiAmTrAnSdEmOn

When Homer first signed on, I liked his deals. His earliest were definately some of his best. But recently he's gone back to the "win now at all costs" philosophy that has never won us anything, and left our farm system in shambles. You keep sending first round picks out for useless or old players it's going to come back and bite you in the arse.

This is a team that is constantly bumping up against the maximum number of allowable NHL contracts and their AHL team was third-worst in the entire league last year.

I haven't even mentioned paying Jody Shelley $1.1M a year for the past three years.

Without vast sums of money papering over the problems, this organization is in real trouble.

And even with the vast sums of money, the NHL team sits eighth worst in the league this season.

[flyercanuck]

@radoran

It's hard to imagine a franchise wanting to keep a guy with that track record on for another year isn't it? I mean just look at it.

[LiAmTrAnSdEmOn]

@LiAmTrAnSdEmOn

When Homer first signed on, I liked his deals. His earliest were definately some of his best. But recently he's gone back to the "win now at all costs" philosophy that has never won us anything, and left our farm system in shambles. You keep sending first round picks out for useless or old players it's going to come back and bite you in the arse.

Yeah, the dealing of first round and second round picks has to stop and hopefully Holmgren sees that. We did just have one last year, so fingers are crossed. I don't really have a problem with it if we can bring back a Pronger type player just for the huge impact they bring with them. But its inexcusable to watch 2nd rounders like Bergeron, Weber, Saad, etc be key contributors and wonder why we don't have them on this team. All that said, while I am a fan of Homer, this year does nothing but put the pressure on him to get us out of this mess which he is partially responsible for. And the offseason may be filled with some fireworks because there will be jobs on the line.

[mojo1917]

And the offseason may be filled with some fireworks because there will be jobs on the line.

i'm sort of looking forward to it, you never know, aside from throwing in a second round pick on any trade, what homer will do .

there is not a scenario that could happen this off-season that will surprise me, it really seems like everything is on the table.

we could dress ovechkin and weber next year the way homer deals and i wouldn't be surprised...

[radoran]

@radoran

It's hard to imagine a franchise wanting to keep a guy with that track record on for another year isn't it? I mean just look at it.

Even blind squirrels find nuts.

Meyer for Zhitnik for Coburn? Fine. Yes.

Richards and Crater? Good returns - on players who you just signed to decade-long deals. Good trade. Bad signings.

The Forsberg deal? Papering over the gigantic, colossal mistake of signing Forsberg in the first place. Parent amounted to little. Upshall, one might recall, became Dan Carcillo.

Signing Bryz? Trading Bobrovsky?

Losing Carle and Jagr to make offers to two players who indicated they had no interest in signing in Philadelphia?

Signing Briere to that deal and term.

And, again, the team is at the the 50-contract NHL limit and is about to pay out $20M over the next four years to players who will not play in Philadelphia.

Phantoms - third worst in the AHL

Flyers - eighth worst in the NHL

Heckuva job, Homer.

[Phlyer1]

I am not well versed in the nuances of the contracts so some of these questions may sound dumb. Pronger is on the injured list isn't his salary covered by insurance? Does it still go against the CAP? Instead of buying out the Bryz contract this year would it pay to wait a year and see if Mason puts enough pressure on him to do better? Would this also get him to try to play in Europe and opt out of his contract.

[radoran]

I am not well versed in the nuances of the contracts so some of these questions may sound dumb. Pronger is on the injured list isn't his salary covered by insurance? Does it still go against the CAP? Instead of buying out the Bryz contract this year would it pay to wait a year and see if Mason puts enough pressure on him to do better? Would this also get him to try to play in Europe and opt out of his contract.

1) Pronger's salary may be covered by insurance and on LTIR it does not apply to the cap. The money is still being spent, regardless of source (and by having a $20M insurance problem, it almost certainly affects your rates).

2) I expect them to buy out Bryz after next season for the reason you cite.

3) I always expected Bryz to walk away from the last years of the deal. I expect him to be signed by another NHL squad, however. The Islanders appear to want half a dozen goalie under contract, so that's a possibility.

[flyercanuck]

Yeah, the dealing of first round and second round picks has to stop and hopefully Holmgren sees that. We did just have one last year, so fingers are crossed. I don't really have a problem with it if we can bring back a Pronger type player just for the huge impact they bring with them. But its inexcusable to watch 2nd rounders like Bergeron, Weber, Saad, etc be key contributors and wonder why we don't have them on this team. All that said, while I am a fan of Homer, this year does nothing but put the pressure on him to get us out of this mess which he is partially responsible for. And the offseason may be filled with some fireworks because there will be jobs on the line.

That's the part that scares me. I hate having a gm who thinks his job is on the line who has some really good young players he could deal for some vets that could help more now.but who's careers will start to slide as soon as we get them. Woo, that was a long sentence!

[flyercanuck]

Even blind squirrels find nuts.

Meyer for Zhitnik for Coburn? Fine. Yes.

Richards and Crater? Good returns - on players who you just signed to decade-long deals. Good trade. Bad signings.

The Forsberg deal? Papering over the gigantic, colossal mistake of signing Forsberg in the first place. Parent amounted to little. Upshall, one might recall, became Dan Carcillo.

Signing Bryz? Trading Bobrovsky?

Losing Carle and Jagr to make offers to two players who indicated they had no interest in signing in Philadelphia?

Signing Briere to that deal and term.

And, again, the team is at the the 50-contract NHL limit and is about to pay out $20M over the next four years to players who will not play in Philadelphia.

Phantoms - third worst in the AHL

Flyers - eighth worst in the NHL

Heckuva job, Homer.

You could add Eminger for a 1st... bad

Hartnell and Timonen for a 1st .. good

Prospal for anything...bad

Ville Leino for next to nothing....good

Matt Walker for Gagne....bad

Versteeg for a 1st + ....bad

Grossmann for a 2nd ...good

Kubina for anything....bad

Having the worst prospect pool in the league....horrible.

[Claude Monet]

this thread makes me scream "I LOVE BEING A FLYER FAN"

[flyercanuck]

@Claude Monet

Let the infinite roller coaster ride continue!

[xganarchy]

1) Pronger's salary may be covered by insurance and on LTIR it does not apply to the cap. The money is still being spent, regardless of source (and by having a $20M insurance problem, it almost certainly affects your rates).

2) I expect them to buy out Bryz after next season for the reason you cite.

3) I always expected Bryz to walk away from the last years of the deal. I expect him to be signed by another NHL squad, however. The Islanders appear to want half a dozen goalie under contract, so that's a possibility.

[radoran]

this thread makes me scream "I LOVE BEING A FLYER FAN"

I love being a Flyers fan.

I hate the morons running the organization.