Coots being Shopped?

[ruxpin]

We do develop our talent. The rest of the league is our farm system

Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Sergei Bobrovsky, Justin Williams, Denis Seidenberg, Patrick Sharp (just to name a few) might indicate it's the other way around.

[brelic]

Mike Richards, Jeff Carter, Sergei Bobrovsky, Justin Williams, Denis Seidenberg, Patrick Sharp (just to name a few) might indicate it's the other way around.

Good point! So we're more like the intermediary between the farm system (Columbus, Nashville, Florida, etc) and the big leagues (Chicago, Detroit, Boston, LA).

[ruxpin]

@brelic

Holmgren is sort of the reverse Rumpelstiltskin. Instead of turning old useless thread into gold, he takes players entering their gold years and exchanges them for old useless threads/retreads.

[AndyS]

Why not just let Cooter be the checking line center?

If he figures out his offensive game? Great! If not, let him do what he is good at right now.

[AndyS]

What about Bogosian? Would you be ok with a Coots/Bogosian swap?

He's still only 21 and has the potential and tools to be a top pairing defenseman.

So think 5 years down the road with

Schenn/Gus

Bogosian/Lauridsen

Morin/Hagg

That could be pretty strong.... stronger than what we have now.

5 years from now you think Morin & Hagg will be our 5/6 defensemen???

If so, I will consider this draft to be a collossal bust.

[brelic]

5 years from now you think Morin & Hagg will be our 5/6 defensemen???

If so, I will consider this draft to be a collossal bust.

They will not be better than 2nd pairing defensemen at 22/23 years old. 25 and beyond is when they can realistically be top pairing defensemen. They should definitely be ahead of Lauridsen though... But both Schenn and Bogosian are a few years older and higher draft picks.

Crazier things have happened though!

[canoli]

NO to Couturier for Bogosian. I know it's anybody's guess but I'm stuck with the mindset that says Couturier is going to really shine at some point - on both sides of the ice. Maybe it's this year maybe not till he's 23 or 24. But godalmighty let's NOT do this again, trading away young promising guys for question marks like Bogosian (or worse).

Edited July 3, 2013 by canoli

[xganarchy]

NO to Couturier for Bogosian. I know it's anybody's guess but I'm stuck with the mindset that says Couturier is going to really shine at some point - on both sides of the ice. Maybe it's this year maybe not till he's 23 or 24. But godalmighty let's NOT do this again, trading away young promising guys for question marks like Bogosian (or worse).

Just curious but what makes Couts less of a question mark than Bogosian?

[ruxpin]

Just curious but what makes Couts less of a question mark than Bogosian?

Smaller font.

Couturier? Bogosian?

See how that works?

[Mad Dog]

I know it's anybody's guess but I'm stuck with the mindset that says Couturier is going to really shine at some point - on both sides of the ice. Maybe it's this year maybe not till he's 23 or 24.

I think so too. Much like you, I don't have much to back this up, but I truly hope the 2012 playoffs - especially his dazzling performance in the Pittsburgh series - were not an aberration. I have to say I am still puzzled by how much of an apparent regression he has made this past season; he was arguably the worst Flyers forward. I don't know if he really missed Jagr or was injured or simply experienced what is known as a sophomore slump. But the reality is it's too early to tell. He can be a bust for all we know, but he just showed way too much promise to simply write him off after just 2 seasons.

I also have to wonder if Lavy's system (yeah, I know... here we go again) is really conducive to his game.

[canoli]

Oh I don't know just what I read about him, here and the web. I haven't seen much of him so I don't *know* but apparently he's had some difficulties. For me it's about Couturier - to me he isn't a question mark except in the sense of "how good will he be?" Otherwise I'd say he's already proved his worth many times over.

[canoli]

I have to say I am still puzzled by how much of an apparent regression he has made this past season; he was arguably the worst Flyers forward.

Meltzer did a real good article about him a few weeks ago and it turned my opinion around. I believed just like you he was probably the worst Flyers' forward last year. But Meltz broke down his shifts and really did a great job - sorry no link but I'm sure it's on Meltzer's blog still. He basically points out that Couturier started his shifts way more often than most fwds in the D zone and left the ice with the puck in O zone. Other stats too, stuff I forget right now. But it was really an eye-opener to read that piece.

[ruxpin]

@Mad Dog

I don't know what exactly it would be, but I'm kind of wanting to make some connection between playing on the Phantoms during the lockout and then picking up with the Flyers when the NHL resumed. I'm just wondering if for whatever reason he had some difficulty making the adjustment.

I'm just making crap up to see what sticks, so just wondering what people's thoughts are.

[Mad Dog]

Meltzer did a real good article about him a few weeks ago and it turned my opinion around. I believed just like you he was probably the worst Flyers' forward last year. But Meltz broke down his shifts and really did a great job - sorry no link but I'm sure it's on Meltzer's blog still. He basically points out that Couturier started his shifts way more often than most fwds in the D zone and left the ice with the puck in O zone. Other stats too, stuff I forget right now. But it was really an eye-opener to read that piece.

Interesting. Somehow I missed that column. Need to find and read it.

[canoli]

here 'tis

http://network.yardbarker.com/nhl/article_external/bill_meltzer_meltzers_musings_couturiers_development_and_future_potential/13808477

[brelic]

Oh I don't know just what I read about him, here and the web. I haven't seen much of him so I don't *know* but apparently he's had some difficulties. For me it's about Couturier - to me he isn't a question mark except in the sense of "how good will he be?" Otherwise I'd say he's already proved his worth many times over.

How has Coots proven his worth many times over? He was downright brutal last season. He was impressive in his rookie season, and he had a very good playoff the first time around. I think he's shown flashes, but he's hardly proven his worth.

That being said, I'm with you. I don't want to move him. I didn't want Vinny. I didn't want Streit. I don't want Thomas.

But this is what this team does... so I think we pretty much have to accept that this team will have no clear direction until there is a different owner and GM. And that means giving away young prospects because they backed themselves into a corner.

Everything they ever do, everything they've done screams one thing loud and clear: WE DON'T TRUST THE PLAYERS WE HAVE.

Signing Vinny says they don't trust Schenn and Couturier. They have no patience or interest in letting these guys develop at their own pace. A one or two year contract to Vinny would have been fine... "Hey Brayden, you can learn from this guy." A five year contract says "Why dontcha move over to wing buddy, this guy will show you how it's done. Better learn quick or we'll send you on the Patrick Sharp Express. But come and see us when you're 34.. we'll set you up for life."

Signing Streit says they don't trust Gus, Lauridsen, Bourdon. Question marks are fine for the latter two, but what about Gus? Everything points to him taking a big step forward this season. So it looks like he will again be saddled with 3rd pairing minutes and have limited room for growth. Again, Streit for a year or two, no problem. Four years? Shows no trust for the players in our system.

If they sign Tim Thomas, it is the same situation in goal. It is a clear message to Mason that they don't trust him. You don't sign Thomas to a $3.5M (reportedly what he's seeking) contract to have him pontificate Tea Party principles and suit up for 20 games. Guaranteed that, barring injury, Thomas gets 50% or more of the starts.

So, to sum up:

1. They don't trust their own players.

2. They overcompensate.

Bonus: They don't actually address the problems.

[ruxpin]

@brelic

My god that was brutal. I agree with every last word of it, but it was brutal to read.

[brelic]

@brelic

My god that was brutal. I agree with every last word of it, but it was brutal to read.

I felt a little queasy just writing it! So frustrating.

[canoli]

@brelic

did you read the article from Meltzer? If not I suggest you do, you may quit using words like "brutal" to describe Couturier's performance this past season. We all saw what we thought was a falloff in his play, no question about it, but the drop off was a lot less than what you might think. Meltzer does a great job of breaking down his shifts, comparing him to the rest of the fwds, etc.

As far as the Flyers not trusting their players, yeah I see that at the GM level. With Lavy I think it's only his goaltenders. He showed tremendous faith in his rookies 2 years ago, really in all his players. Not too much swapping lines, etc. Of course it makes things easier when you're winning! Last season ... just sucked.

[Phillygrump]

I'd at least like to give Couturier a second post season before this team gives up on him. I do also realize that to get a good young defenseman you need to give up good talent but its still so early to give up on Couturier who really did an impressive job negating one of the best players in the world last post season.

[brelic]

did you read the article from Meltzer? If not I suggest you do, you may quit using words like "brutal" to describe Couturier's performance this past season. We all saw what we thought was a falloff in his play, no question about it, but the drop off was a lot less than what you might think. Meltzer does a great job of breaking down his shifts, comparing him to the rest of the fwds, etc.

I did read it back when it was originally posted. Meltzer makes some great points. There's definitely some 'truth' to those statistics, but I just remember what I saw and it wasn't pretty. He looked lost and s-l-o-w for long stretches of time. It's also something that most fans expected (sophomore slump). It's very real. The strange thing is that he was cruising in the AHL before starting a shortened campaign in the NHL... you would think that would have mitigated a lot of what plagues second year players.

But I want him wearing O&B when he's 25, 26, 27, and we all get to see him hit his prime and develop into the player we all believe he will be. The best way to do that is to keep increasing his ice time and responsibilities as time goes by. But now with Vinny The Cavalier for 5 years, we've basically told Coots that he will be no better than 3rd line center until he's 25. And that annoys the s**t out of me! As some have mentioned, it's easier to imagine Schenn making the switch to wing than Coots.

As far as the Flyers not trusting their players, yeah I see that at the GM level. With Lavy I think it's only his goaltenders. He showed tremendous faith in his rookies 2 years ago, really in all his players. Not too much swapping lines, etc. Of course it makes things easier when you're winning! Last season ... just sucked.

Lavy definitely trusts young guys. He even trusted Bob enough once upon a time to make his first NHL game ever be the season opener. Same with Coots... one of the first games of his rookie season, Coots was out late in the third period killing a 3 on 5 against the Stanley Cup champion Bruins. ANd he succeeded.

But, yeah, I'm with you that he's brutal overall with his goaltenders. Extreme reactions in either direction.

It's the front office that freaking panics the moment the playoffs are in danger. That's their bread and butter and now they're on 'high alert'. Apparently the message has been received!

[Philly29]

Did I call him a bust? He started out as a number 1 pick early in his draft year and got mono. His stock fell and the Flyers were able to pick him up later in the first as a "steel". I think he is a nice hockey player but ultimately he seems to be, IMHO, an average skater at best. Based on this it IMHO that if we can trade him and perhaps Mez (due to his contract) for a top 3 defenseman then you now have the luxury of being able to do it with VL. Look, I don't like the VL signing at all but in the game of assets/liabilities he is an asset. We now have more assets at center and are able to make a trade. Do you trade G? No. Do you trade Laughton? No. Schenn? I'd rather keep him over Coots. Talbot or Read who can play center? Perhaps Read. So really the one I see is expendable is Coots based on my opinion that I don't think he is a strong skater.

You said he doesn't have the foot/skating and he reminds you of Handzus. Well for a top ten pick to me that sounds like a bust.....In my opnion yes he might not be Grabner when it comes to skating that does not mean he will not be a super star some day. His skating is not that bad he did score all those points in the minors for some reason. His rookie year he single handedly shut down the whole Pittsburgh squad. I mean if were going to trade guys that barley played two years because of this and that why even draft at all? Just trade our picks away then...It isn't like VL is the fastest skater you know. Your saying VL who is passed his prime what 34 or 35 years old for $4.5 mil a year is an asset but Coots a guy who again as I stated has not played a full two years of hockey is not an asset, at least a future one? We have not even really see Laughton play yet only a handful of games but he is more of an untouchable then Coots is? Why? It is not a wonder why our rookie players that we draft might start off slow or half to play in the minors for a few years there probably so up tight about performing like Crosby right off the bat or they will be traded for some aging star... or some other teams rookie... Let them be and build a team through the draft and keep the players we draft for more then one season before we call them a bust and trade them off. Not some much directed at you "off_the_post" as more directed to management.

Edited July 4, 2013 by Philly29

[beachflyer]

I don't mind trading Coots at all. After last year I thought he simply doesn't have the foot/skating speed to reach his potential. He reminded me of Handzus but with less teeth and perhaps more hair. Nashville might be ready to let a D-man go. I'd be calling the Preds ASAP.

I don't agree with you about Coots, he can only go UP after last year. However, if we're going to dangle him for tradebait, I'd be looking to Nashville myself for a D-man.

[jammer2]

How has Coots proven his worth many times over? He was downright brutal last season. He was impressive in his rookie season, and he had a very good playoff the first time around. I think he's shown flashes, but he's hardly proven his worth.

That being said, I'm with you. I don't want to move him. I didn't want Vinny. I didn't want Streit. I don't want Thomas.

But this is what this team does... so I think we pretty much have to accept that this team will have no clear direction until there is a different owner and GM. And that means giving away young prospects because they backed themselves into a corner.

Everything they ever do, everything they've done screams one thing loud and clear: WE DON'T TRUST THE PLAYERS WE HAVE.

Signing Vinny says they don't trust Schenn and Couturier. They have no patience or interest in letting these guys develop at their own pace. A one or two year contract to Vinny would have been fine... "Hey Brayden, you can learn from this guy." A five year contract says "Why dontcha move over to wing buddy, this guy will show you how it's done. Better learn quick or we'll send you on the Patrick Sharp Express. But come and see us when you're 34.. we'll set you up for life."

Signing Streit says they don't trust Gus, Lauridsen, Bourdon. Question marks are fine for the latter two, but what about Gus? Everything points to him taking a big step forward this season. So it looks like he will again be saddled with 3rd pairing minutes and have limited room for growth. Again, Streit for a year or two, no problem. Four years? Shows no trust for the players in our system.

If they sign Tim Thomas, it is the same situation in goal. It is a clear message to Mason that they don't trust him. You don't sign Thomas to a $3.5M (reportedly what he's seeking) contract to have him pontificate Tea Party principles and suit up for 20 games. Guaranteed that, barring injury, Thomas gets 50% or more of the starts.

So, to sum up:

1. They don't trust their own players.

2. They overcompensate.

Bonus: They don't actually address the problems.

Really nice straight forward post Bre, sums up my feelings perfectly. I never worded so nicely, but yeah, they have no faith in Schenn, so they block his way with Vinny....ditto for Gus and Striet. I really think Gus has the skill set to excel in Striet's role, but was never given the reigns or vote of confidence to allow it to happen. That's what good teams do, they draft the kids, let them evolve and grow into the important roles, thus saving cap space and makes the FA market less of a necessity.

[brelic]

Really nice straight forward post Bre, sums up my feelings perfectly. I never worded so nicely, but yeah, they have no faith in Schenn, so they block his way with Vinny....ditto for Gus and Striet. I really think Gus has the skill set to excel in Striet's role, but was never given the reigns or vote of confidence to allow it to happen. That's what good teams do, they draft the kids, let them evolve and grow into the important roles, thus saving cap space and makes the FA market less of a necessity.

You know, I've had to think about my original post, and I wonder if/how this applies to the Carter/Richards situation. I don't remember their first few years in the league very well. Were they blocked? Would have been by Primeau, right? Or is there someone I'm missing? I guess Forsberg was here for a bit. They were also 20 years old, so not straight out of juniors, and they had just won a Calder Cup. Maybe they were a little more 'seasoned' when they came in compared to Schenn and Coots.

Anyway, the more I thought about it, the more I came to think that yes, it could be applied to Richards and Carter regardless of how they were handled in the first few years. They were traded away. The faces of the franchise, signed for life, and they were traded away. It's almost like the organization gave up on them. The question is was it too early? Or were the Flyers more than accommodating, and really exhausted every avenue to keep them here?

It might be a stretch... but at least it got me thinking about more than just the current roster.