Couturier signs 2-year extension

[brelic]

I see Couterier's salary as having to do more with the fact that the Flyers don't have much cap room left to sign him and they have the leverage. I almost feel bad for him, actually. He (at a young age) gets slammed with the toughest zone starts of any Flyer, the toughest Quality of Competition, and STILL is a possession positive player...

And then folks say that he doesn't bring enough offensively to warrant much of a raise. Ouch.

He's been given an extremely tough job to do, has excelled at it, and due to the above, isn't getting much of a reward.

JR

It's not a slam on Coots. The fact is that defensively-minded 20 year old players don't typically get $3M+ contracts. It's not 'flashy' and doesn't have the same value placed on it.

Logan Couture was on a 3-year ELC at $1.25M per season much like Couturier. Then he had a 2 year bridge contract of $2.8M, because he had two seasons under his belt of 53 points and 65 points. Now, he got extended for 5 years at $6M per season.

His offensive performance is what led to the bridge contract being so high for a guy with 2 years experience. Couturier has 2 seasons (actually less because of the lockout). He got 27 points and 15 (projected 25) in his first two seasons. That's considerably less than Couture. And I know they're not at all the same players... but offense gets more immediate rewards than defense.

I can't really think of a good comparison for Couturier... anyone? In his draft class, Huberdeau and Ladeskog got high ELC from the get-go (over $3M), so Couture was a better comparison because they had similar ELC cap hits.

I know what you're saying though... why didn't Coots just ride out this year, hoping that a stronger performance will parlay into a bigger contract? Don't forget that it goes two ways... if he has another season that doesn't show progress, that hurts him too.

[JR Ewing]

@brelic

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that you were slamming him for lack of offense. Just that, maybe, the scale of the job he was asked to do wasn't fully seen by enough people. This kid has come exactly as advertised. From Hockey Prospectus' scouting report in his draft year:

His greatest asset though has to be his head and how he thinks the game... He does so many little things right and at a quality level, be it on the forecheck, positioning, play in front of the net and on defense that's it's hard to imagine him needing a significant amount of coaching at the technical level when he goes pro.

I'm a fan. I would have loved for the Oilers to grab him, but with them having the #1 overall that year, they had to go for the concensus #1.

JR

[aziz]

I see Couterier's salary as having to do more with the fact that the Flyers don't have much cap room left to sign him and they have the leverage....He's been given an extremely tough job to do, has excelled at it, and due to the above, isn't getting much of a reward.

i'm just saying, they didn't have to sign him now. he didn't have to agree to an extension now. he has ten months before he actually needed to start worrying about it, and who knows what next season brings? maybe he's been working on his skating in the offseason, gets a chance or two on the top two lines and puts some things together, ends the season with 65 points. in addition to be a strong defensive center. then he goes to holmgren and says, "hey, i brought a lot to the table, let's do three years at $3mil per."

don't get why he'd go to the table after a weak season and thus really didn't have any negotiating leverage. many props to holmgren for making it happen, it is the *perfect* time for the team to talk about extending him....just exactly the wrong time for him to talk about it.

[JR Ewing]

i'm just saying, they didn't have to sign him now. he didn't have to agree to an extension now. he has ten months before he actually needed to start worrying about it, and who knows what next season brings? maybe he's been working on his skating in the offseason, gets a chance or two on the top two lines and puts some things together, ends the season with 65 points. in addition to be a strong defensive center. then he goes to holmgren and says, "hey, i brought a lot to the table, let's do three years at $3mil per."

don't get why he'd go to the table after a weak season and thus really didn't have any negotiating leverage. many props to holmgren for making it happen, it is the *perfect* time for the team to talk about extending him....just exactly the wrong time for him to talk about it.

I agree with everything you wrote other than "weak season". They piled all of the heaviest mail bags on him, and he still delivered. But absoutely, I also don't know why he signed an extension now, either. It's one thing to sign one when you're Taylor Hall or Jeff Skinner, and you're getting mad money, but that's not the case here.

JR

[aziz]

I agree with everything you wrote other than "weak season".

true. i just meant in the ways that get you big contracts. he is capable of more offense than he brought last season, and i'm reasonably confident he'll show that next season. 65 points maybe is a stretch, but only maybe. the guy has good vision, good hands. his skating holds him back, but that can be worked on.

[dilbert719]

Maybe he feels his performance last year was rather dissapointing, especially after his strong rookie campaign, so he felt he had a lot to prove to the Flyers... I don't know.... guess looking for some explanations that would make sense.

The only explanation I have is that perhaps he figures for this year and next, Lecavalier will be the unquestioned #2 center, but perhaps in that last season, Couturier's development and Vinny's decline could result in the two of them switching positions on the depth chart, and the long-term contract he could get as the Flyers' #2 center would be superior to the deal he'd get the year before as our #3.

Edited July 22, 2013 by dilbert719

[terp]

Couturier's game is projectable over 2-3 seasons. It isn't the type of game and he doesn't seem like the type of person to want to force it and put a lot of pressure on himself to be all things to all observers within 9 months. He's only 21 after all and in fact that kind of pressure probably wouldn't be good for his development. We're a lot more accustomed to seeing players and agents (and maybe the occasional owner or GM) take an impatient approach but this seems sensible to me.

[aziz]

Couturier's game is projectable over 2-3 seasons.

is it? i'm curious how you see it projecting.

in all honesty, i could see him as a smart 70 point two way center, and i can see him as a fairly run of the mill 35 point defensive guy. to me, there's a pretty big spread on the what-is-possible front.

[NRH]

Couts probably doesn't gamble with his career quite yet, I'd rather sign for 3million than try to hold out and score 10 more goals that the year before to make 4million and take a hockey stick to the eye.

[brelic]

in all honesty, i could see him as a smart 70 point two way center, and i can see him as a fairly run of the mill 35 point defensive guy. to me, there's a pretty big spread on the what-is-possible front.

Over the course of his career, sure, I think you're bang on in terms of his ceiling and floor.

But over the next 2-3 years, on top of being blocked by Giroux and Lecavalier, destined to play a defensive 3rd line role? It becomes a little easier to project. We don't have crystal balls (that sounds funny), but my guess is that he would top out at 40 points in that kind of role over 2-3 years.

[mojo1917]

I like that the extension keeps him from getting an offer sheet from an opportunistic GM for while longer. And let's him focus on playing hockey and not earning the "big payday"

I think he's going to be a very good player once he fills out into his man body. he had a bad second season, but that happens to so many people they actually came up with a term to describe it. He had some really bad stretches where he looked slow and lost but he was one of 25 guys about which we could say the same thing. There is one weakness in his game as I see it and that's his skating which isn't terrible it's just not a plus for him.

His skating can get better, his top end is fine he just needs to work on his quickness and agility which may come, maybe not, but he did grow quite a bit since his last year of junior ( 3 inches) maybe as he gets used to his new frame some of the quickness comes back ?

[Flyingswede]

i'm a little surprised couturier took that, really. if that was the dollar figure on the table, i think i'd say, "well, ok, let's just wait until next spring, then. i want the chance to maybe have a really strong season and shoot a little higher for my 2nd contract." i don't see the advantage to couturier agreeing to that right now. i mean, glad he did, but weird.

Take a look at his stats. He is not really worth more. Yes, we see talent, we see future, we all have expectations but I think he is not worth more at this day, I think he knows that too. He needs to prove things next season but most of all he needs to improve things first.

[aziz]

Take a look at his stats. He is not really worth more. Yes, we see talent, we see future, we all have expectations but I think he is not worth more at this day, I think he knows that too. He needs to prove things next season but most of all he needs to improve things first.

That. Is. My. Point.

Prove things next season, and sign a deal after. Why sign now?

[jammer2]

To lazy to go back and look, but somebody mentioned the other side of the ledger, what if he regressed and put up a 20 pts season. Really though, at the very least he's gonna be a sound defensive forward, if he regressed, he would really only dip to 1.3 or 1.4 or so, if that. Just say'in that the potential gain is worth a lot more than any potential loss the would occur. Just another reason why he should have waited a bit. Who knows though, maybe his family needed the 2 year security blanket or something, never know the financial position some families are in.

[terp]

is it? i'm curious how you see it projecting.

in all honesty, i could see him as a smart 70 point two way center, and i can see him as a fairly run of the mill 35 point defensive guy. to me, there's a pretty big spread on the what-is-possible front.

He and his agent see him as the former and don't feel like he has to get paid next week. Your downside assessment of him is unduly negative.

[Dynamo 47]

I thought it was a smart move by Homer. VERY cap friendly hit.

The question I would pose to the Flyers faithful is looking back to draft day would you still have selected Couterier instead of Dougie Hamilton?

We really could have used Dougie then and still so today while our biggest strength is the center position. Curious as to what others think.

When I was watching the draft unfold I was psyched as Dougie was what we needed and fell into our laps. But Couts also was projected to go higher so kind of a catch 22.

Looking back then and at the teams strengths and weaknesses now I still wish we had taken Hamilton. He is going to be a top pairing or #3 guy and plays with an edge while Couterier gives us smarts, defense, and scoring potential down the line.

[aziz]

He and his agent see him as the former and don't feel like he has to get paid next week. Your downside assessment of him is unduly negative.

Oh. I dunno, don't think it is unduly negative, or really negative at all. It is the bottom of the spread, after all. I think it conceivable, though not likely, that he ends up a poor man's Handzus. Somewhere between that and a poor man's Zetterberg. No? That's pretty much the gamut of possibilities, not really going on much of a limb.

Edited July 24, 2013 by aziz

[DaGreatGazoo]

I thought it was a smart move by Homer. VERY cap friendly hit.

The question I would pose to the Flyers faithful is looking back to draft day would you still have selected Couterier instead of Dougie Hamilton?

We really could have used Dougie then and still so today while our biggest strength is the center position. Curious as to what others think.

When I was watching the draft unfold I was psyched as Dougie was what we needed and fell into our laps. But Couts also was projected to go higher so kind of a catch 22.

Looking back then and at the teams strengths and weaknesses now I still wish we had taken Hamilton. He is going to be a top pairing or #3 guy and plays with an edge while Couterier gives us smarts, defense, and scoring potential down the line.

I have always said I wish we would have taken Hamilton, and that is NO insult to Couts.

It goes back to the best player available versus drafting for need argument that we always have. Couts was ranked as the BPA, at that point. The glaring, obvious, a blind man with no seeing-eye dog could see it need for the Flyers was a young defenseman.

[terp]

Oh. I dunno, don't think it is unduly negative, or really negative at all. It is the bottom of the spread, after all. I think it conceivable, though not likely, that he ends up a poor man's Handzus. Somewhere between that and a poor man's Zetterberg. No? That's pretty much the gamut of possibilities, not really going on much of a limb.

I don't think the bottom end of his range is "run of the mill". You can't unlearn his hockey IQ and skill. This is why I say you are unduly negative. I guess Handzus is a decent comparison from a defensive perspective but Handzus never had Couturier's vision or finishing touch as a young player. He displayed some offense but no one ever thought he had elite skill.

[aziz]

I guess Handzus is a decent comparison from a defensive perspective but Handzus never had Couturier's vision or finishing touch as a young player.

handzus was also a better skater than couturier, which......

seriously, couturier has tools that few players have, but everything, imo, hinges on his skating. if he pulls that into shape, the sky is the limit. if he doesn't, well, the limit is far lower. his acceleration is such that he is at risk of getting trapped whenever he slides below the offensive faceoff dots. he has to be constantly thinking "back back back" or: problems.

if his skating doesn't improve dramatically, he will be a career defensive center. as it stands, he just can't carry offensive possession without sacrificing defensive coverage almost entirely. he simply can't recover when he commits deep in the offensive zone. if he fixes that, if he can participate freely in a possession offense, where his vision and touch can be put to use, then big things are in store. if he doesn't, handzus is an entirely apt comparison, as those gifts will rarely have a chance to be relevant.

i'm not super down on the kid, i agree he is very talented. i just haven't seen too many NHL players with the skating problems he has. he really looks like he has 20 pound cement blocks on his feet out there.

[terp]

@aziz

I've not seen him rated as a below average skater anywhere other than on this board and yes, I watch the games. It simply isn't the case. He isn't the quickest but average skating ability isn't going to turn him into a run of the mill player. He's far from a run of the mill player already. I think the following is reality:

Kirk Luedeke: Skating deficiencies come in different categories/varieties depending on the player, but in Couturier's case, he lacks a quick initial burst and the ability to accelerate rapidly in short areas. Quick stops/starts/changes of direction are a challenge for him. You will hear scouts use the phrase: "has heavy boots" which usually means that a player doesn't explode from a standstill and generate top speed in the first few strides, but rather labors to get that head of steam going.

This is a pretty common thing with a player of Couturier's size, however, and can be improved with power skating work/improvements to mechanics and also off-ice plyometrics and ladder work to increase footspeed/agility. Milan Lucic told me that his off-season grass drills and plyometrics work (along with the power skating he does) has been instrumental in his success in the NHL after being red-flagged during his draft season for skating/mobility. Because Couturier's speed is fine when he gets going, he doesn't have all that far to go.

When you watch Couturier on video, which is what I assume you are seeing, he's already moving and in stride with or without the puck (when he's about to receive the pass), so you aren't going to see much wrong with him without seeing how he looks coming out of the gate from a stop, or during sequences where he's having to make rapid changes in direction. That's where the criticisms of his mobility tend to originate.

In my view, he's not a terrible skater, but the lack of suddenness is evident and he'll never be considered a "plus-skater" no matter how much work he puts into it. When you're looking at drafting a player with the first or second overall pick, these are the kinds of things that teams/scouts will obsess about because his stride is a little funky, and he makes slower, wide turns at times. That said, if Couturier picks up a step or two, he'll be fine. I heard the same exact things about Patrice Bergeron when he was drafted, and the difference between Couturier and Bergeron (aside from the draft position) is about six inches and some considerable offensive upside. Because of where Couturier stands to be drafted, the stakes are higher for him.

By all accounts, he's a good kid and willing to work, so the skating is only a part of his stock drop off. I think some of it also has to do with scouts having seen him more as a late '92 whereby there are some projections that see him as a second-line center. If that's where you see him in the NHL, then there might be someone else you see with a higher upside, and that could be a source of the talk of him falling.

To be honest, I don't think Couturier will fall all that far. His hockey sense and hands are outstanding, and he's got the right character/intangibles that teams desire. I'd be surprised if he drops out of the top-four, and if he does, then whomever gets him beyond that will have a real nice value selection.

[aziz]

I've not seen him rated as a below average skater anywhere other than on this board and yes, I watch the games. It simply isn't the case. He isn't the quickest but average skating ability isn't going to turn him into a run of the mill player.

we're gonna have to agree to disagree here, because you and i are seeing completely different things on this. i'm not the least bit concerned about where he may or may not be rated as a below average skater (though you then go and post a scouting report from a bruins scout that goes in depth on his poor skating, which seems...odd to me), i care about what i see. i see a guy who, at this point, can not keep up with a play if it turns on him quickly. his mobility is fine if we are talking about shifting positioning in the defensive zone, but if the word "recover" is ever used -as in, a turnover has the play headed down ice and the forwards need to beat feet back- couturier can not keep pace with the pack and will always be late. his top speed is fine, but it takes him a zone and a half to reach it. and that is a problem. one a smart coach will counter by not deploying him in an offensive role. keep him behind the puck at all times. imo, that was a significant reason for his points drop off last season, laviolette kept him in as "safe" a posture as possible.

none of this mentions his complete inability to use speed as any kind of offensive option.

you don't see that, that's fine, we'll have our own opinions on it. i stick by my belief that his skating is well below average for an NHL player, and unless it is a primary focus and improves DRAMATICALLY, he is going to be challenged and his ceiling far lower than the rest of his skill sets would seem to suggest.

edit: sorry, new england journalist/scout, not a bruins scout.

Edited July 25, 2013 by aziz

[terp]

we're gonna have to agree to disagree here, because you and i are seeing completely different things on this. i'm not the least bit concerned about where he may or may not be rated as a below average skater (though you then go and post a scouting report from a bruins scout that goes in depth on his poor skating, which seems...odd to me), i care about what i see. i see a guy who, at this point, can not keep up with a play if it turns on him quickly. his mobility is fine if we are talking about shifting positioning in the defensive zone, but if the word "recover" is ever used -as in, a turnover has the play headed down ice and the forwards need to beat feet back- couturier can not keep pace with the pack and will always be late. his top speed is fine, but it takes him a zone and a half to reach it. and that is a problem. one a smart coach will counter by not deploying him in an offensive role. keep him behind the puck at all times. imo, that was a significant reason for his points drop off last season, laviolette kept him in as "safe" a posture as possible.

none of this mentions his complete inability to use speed as any kind of offensive option.

you don't see that, that's fine, we'll have our own opinions on it. i stick by my belief that his skating is well below average for an NHL player, and unless it is a primary focus and improves DRAMATICALLY, he is going to be challenged and his ceiling far lower than the rest of his skill sets would seem to suggest.

edit: sorry, new england journalist/scout, not a bruins scout.

I guess if you want to dismiss the opinions of various scouts who have evaluated him, fine. You get to believe what you want. And if you want to believe that a truly below average skater is going to be consistently sent out to mark the other team's top players (to "protect him"), you can believe that too. It defies logic though and assumes an extraordinary degree of armchair expertise, but go ahead, believe what you like.

But seriousliy, is Lavy protecting Couturier by putting him out against the other team's top line in the Flyers' defensive zone? OK, he's not being protected at all he's being relied upon to do an important job and he's doing it well, especially for a player his age. And while he's not a plus skater, he skates well enough to do this job and, I say, to contribute more offense if his role changes.

Edited July 26, 2013 by terp

[aziz]

I guess if you want to dismiss the opinions of various scouts who have evaluated him, fine.

i have yet to read a scouting report on him that does not point at his skating, specifically his acceleration, as subpar. you copy and pasted one in that went on for, what, 5 paragraphs? focusing on his weak first several strides. who is dismissing the opinions of scouts here?

again, it's one thing if his job is to mark a man in the defensive zone. going from standstill to top speed quickly is not especially important in that role. if his job is to push offensive possession, different story. do you understand that? if the puck is lost at the offensive blueline, and it takes couturier 5 strides to reach the speed it takes someone else 2 strides to achieve, he will be hopelessly behind the play and the flyers will be effectively shorthanded in the defensive zone until he can recover. it isn't armchair expertise, it is watching the kid play last year, lose the puck in the neutral zone and have no hope of recovering before an odd-man rush against plays out. it is also watching laviolette deploy him in an almost exclusively defensive role, which happens to minimize his exposure to exactly that situation. and, yes, he handles that defensive job extremely well. if that is the only job he is able to handle through his career, then i go back to my 35 point low end prediction.

[terp]

i have yet to read a scouting report on him that does not point at his skating, specifically his acceleration, as subpar. you copy and pasted one in that went on for, what, 5 paragraphs? focusing on his weak first several strides. who is dismissing the opinions of scouts here?

again, it's one thing if his job is to mark a man in the defensive zone. going from standstill to top speed quickly is not especially important in that role. if his job is to push offensive possession, different story. do you understand that? if the puck is lost at the offensive blueline, and it takes couturier 5 strides to reach the speed it takes someone else 2 strides to achieve, he will be hopelessly behind the play and the flyers will be effectively shorthanded in the defensive zone until he can recover. it isn't armchair expertise, it is watching the kid play last year, lose the puck in the neutral zone and have no hope of recovering before an odd-man rush against plays out. it is also watching laviolette deploy him in an almost exclusively defensive role, which happens to minimize his exposure to exactly that situation. and, yes, he handles that defensive job extremely well. if that is the only job he is able to handle through his career, then i go back to my 35 point low end prediction.

I know you realize that the assessment I posted was entirely in response to a question about his skating. Spin on aziz. There are lots of scouting reports and commentary, most probably, that make no mention whatsoever of his skating. But to you he's Jay Rosehill.

Also, if you lose the puck at the offensive blue line, you have an odd man rush going the other way no matter how fast you are. So there's that. And I have an issue with the notion that you can be a really lousy skater and be any good defensively. Couturier's not quick but he's got good balance and is strong on his feet. So no, I don't "understand" that. His skating is good enough. Not every effective offensive player in the league has elite acceleration and there are a lot of ways to be very good without having Alexandre Daigle-like speed.