Couturier signs 2-year extension

[aziz]

I know you realize that the assessment I posted was entirely in response to a question about his skating.

well, no, you posted that with no context whatsoever. i had no idea what it was from, you just dropped it in there flat. and regardless, the guy makes 5 paragraphs of good points about couturier's skating problems. as you said, it "is reality".

There are lots of scouting reports and commentary, most probably, that make no mention whatsoever of his skating.

then, frankly, those scouts did a piss poor job. an ice hockey scout who doesn't make any mention whatsoever as to the skating of any prospect, good or bad, is bad enough; one who makes no mention whatsoever as to the skating of a prospect that Kirk Luedeke describes as having "heavy boots" is, well, not doing their job.

But to you he's Jay Rosehill.

who said that??

Also, if you lose the puck at the offensive blue line, you have an odd man rush going the other way no matter how fast you are.

i stick handle to the blueline and try to get around you. you take the puck from me and start in the other direction. if i can accelerate as quickly as you, i am right on your tail and stand a good chance of being involved in the play in the defensive zone. if i am way slower to accelerate than you, you gain 20 feet of separation on me and i am an afterthought for the initial defensive zone salvo. couturier gives up that kind of distance each time that situation plays out. how you could possibly have not seen that last season boggles. which, again, is why he was played on a line and with linemates designed to keep him goalside as much as possible, because the moment he gets square with a defender, there are issues.

And I have an issue with the notion that you can be a really lousy skater and be any good defensively. Couturier's not quick but he's got good balance and is strong on his feet. So no, I don't "understand" that. His skating is good enough.

yes, he has very good balance. he turns well. he is fine in situations where there are no foot races, where top speed is not relevant, where he can play a smart positional game and utilize his awareness and size. i have never argued that.

you are melting a particular criticism of the player into a general condemnation, and i'm not condemning him generally. he has one very specific problem, the problem i have specifically mentioned again and again: he goes from 0-60 in like 8 hours. from a standstill, i do not know that i've seen an nhl player who gets to speed as slowly as couturier. that is a problem that will drastically limit his offensive effectiveness unless it is fixed. more, it will and has caused him to be a defensive liability if he engages deep in the offensive zone. all the desire in the world to be a tenacious backchecker matters not at all if the guy who starts at the offensive goalline next to you can hit the defensive blueline before you can get out of the zone. and, once again, notice how he was used last season. notice how he played. he was given almost exclusively defensive responsibilities, given defensive zone starts, given defensive linemates. when his line did press the attack, he maintain position above the offensive faceoff dots. he HAS to have a headstart if the play turns the other way. he will only be but so effective as an offensive player so long as that remains the case.

i am not saying he can't fix it. i am saying his role as an NHL player hinges on whether or not he does fix it. 3rd line defensive specialist, or 2nd line two way player. 35 points or 70.

that projection changes if he is moved to a wing, btw. if he is put on a line where someone else can take that d3 assignment, then he is freed up to do more and his recovery time becomes less important. he works well as a center, though. with that one glaring flaw.

Edited July 27, 2013 by aziz

[terp]

@aziz

The point he makes is that Couturier's skating would not drop him out of the top 5 or so. That's a long way from "5 paragraphs of good points about couturier's skating problems". When you spin like that, it seems like something other than a dispassionate assessment.

This idea that he's being "hidden" in the line up is just wrong. If that were true, he'd be in Adirondack. He's in the line up because he's effective matched up against the opponent's top players. His first step may improve a bit but he is what he is though, unlike you, I don't see it as fatal to his offensive potential. As I said, there are a lot of ways to be very good and you don't have to be prototypical to be an effective offensive player.

[jammer2]

@terp Coots skating reminds me a bit of Anderchuk's...who ended up being a 600 goal scorer. I'm not saying Coots will become that, just that people with is skating devincies can overcome them and and become average to star players and everything in between. Coots was not a lazy player last year, but he needs to make up for the skating with increased cardio, allowing him to work harder and chase the puck with more success.

[aziz]

@terp

ok.

[terp]

@terp he needs to make up for the skating with increased cardio, allowing him to work harder and chase the puck with more success.

Good point. Fitness is even more critical if you have any kind of skating deficiency.

[brelic]

Just read this piece by Tim P, and haven't seen it posted here yet.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Tim-Panaccio/My-Take-on-Couturier-Deal/2/53036#.UfesSdK1F8E

It's an interesting theory... that the Couturier signing is really a sign of Homer's uncertainty in what Couturier will turn out to be... and makes him a very attractive trading chip who is under contract for the next 3 years.

As bad a sophomore slump as Sean Couturier had this past season, that was no excuse to sign early as an RFA.

Sure, RFAs have little leverage but his agent did him no favors on a two-year, $3.5 million extension with a modest bump in salary of $400,000.

All this has achieved is that it makes Couturier that much more attractive in a trade and the FLyers will go into next season with the same, two players as potential trade bait if this summer's grand moves don't pan out - Couturier and Brayden Schenn.

Some people call this deal a "bridge" deal to the next one but I look at it as general manager Paul Holmgren being uncertain in his own mind as to what kind of player he has in Couturier and what is future value is.

Is he going to be a two-way centerman much like Mike Richards was here? Will he regain the offensive touch he had as a rookie? Will he be an offensive threat on the penalty kill to get shorthanded goals?

This is a contract that heavily favors the Flyers - not the player. Which is why he should not have signed it. Last I looked, Gilles Lupien was his agent.

A lot of NHLers had bad lockout-shortened seasons, besides Couturier. This coming season is one of judge by.

Which is why Couturier should have allowed things to ride and see what kind of year he has then re-sign next summer.

So what was the real hurry? I often think players feel that if they re-sign it's a guarantee they are committing to remain with the team.

Given the widespread interest around the NHL in Couturier, this is a case where re-signing for a number that I predict will ultimately see him as undervalued, only enhances the prospects that he becomes a prime trade target.

Who wouldn't want a 20-year-old for a salary of less than $2 million a year with three more years to give some team before his next deal?

[murraycraven]

Just read this piece by Tim P, and haven't seen it posted here yet.

http://www.hockeybuz...36#.UfesSdK1F8E

It's an interesting theory... that the Couturier signing is really a sign of Homer's uncertainty in what Couturier will turn out to be... and makes him a very attractive trading chip who is under contract for the next 3 years.

Brel... I read that post from TP as well and while I am not a fan of his it does bring up some very good points. Cooter is a good young player and that contract makes it very easy for Homer to trade. Honestly, I am not sure why Cooter and his agent would sign that deal at this time.

As for the argument surrounding his skating ability I am with aziz on this one. He is, at the very best (right now) , an average skater and I would be lying if I thought he was anywhere near above average. Even when Cooter was drafted the big knock was his skating ability and I have not seen that much improvement since his time w/ the Flyers. In time and with maturity I think he will be very good with the puck and believe he will learn to use his body to protect the puck more.

The eyes do not lie... his skating ability is definitely his weakness and truthfully I do not see him being the goal scorer that he was in Jrs. I hope I am dead wrong about all of this but I think he is going to be a very good 3rd line center and nothing more. His defensive play is very impressive but I just dont see that he is going to be a top end #1 or # 2 center in the NHL.

Again... this is all based on what I see - which means absolutely nothing.

Edited July 30, 2013 by murraycraven

[AJgoal]

Brel... I read that post from TP as well and while I am not a fan of his it does bring up some very good points. Cooter is a good young player and that contract makes it very easy for Homer to trade. Honestly, I am not sure why Cooter and his agent would sign that deal at this time.

Maybe that's why he signed it? Maybe he views himself as a #2 center and thinks that he may be able to get traded somewhere where he will fill that role? Right now, he's behind Giroux and Lecavalier for the next 5 years. If the Flyers trade him to a seller at the deadline, for example, he has a better chance to slot in as a 2nd line center. It's a reach, admittedly, but it's not impossible.

[murraycraven]

Maybe that's why he signed it? Maybe he views himself as a #2 center and thinks that he may be able to get traded somewhere where he will fill that role? Right now, he's behind Giroux and Lecavalier for the next 5 years. If the Flyers trade him to a seller at the deadline, for example, he has a better chance to slot in as a 2nd line center. It's a reach, admittedly, but it's not impossible.

AJ... I think it is as good of an explanation as any. I just think the timing is odd but this deal favors the Flyers IMO - not Cooter. I hope he pans out to be a great player but he is going to have limited time playing as the 3rd line center. If a team is willing to overpay I think Homer will listen.

[flyercanuck]

First off, I don't think TP is any kind of genuis pondering why Couturier signed, when we were discussing that very point in this very thread BEFORE he mentioned it.

As for why Holmgren signed him to it....Every once in a while, Homer signs a player to a contract based on actual play instead of potential. This is one of them.

I doubt Couturier is the type of player who thinks he's a #2 center but his way is blocked. He likely thinks when the two years are up he'll have earned a much better paycheck, and the wheels will be falling off the Lecavalier wagon. And he'll be the #2 center in Philly. He's 20 years old and has as many NHL games under his belt as 4 of the 7 players picked ahead of him in his draft combined.

[murraycraven]

First off, I don't think TP is any kind of genuis pondering why Couturier signed, when we were discussing that very point in this very thread BEFORE he mentioned it.

As for why Holmgren signed him to it....Every once in a while, Homer signs a player to a contract based on actual play instead of potential. This is one of them.

I doubt Couturier is the type of player who thinks he's a #2 center but his way is blocked. He likely thinks when the two years are up he'll have earned a much better paycheck, and the wheels will be falling off the Lecavalier wagon. And he'll be the #2 center in Philly. He's 20 years old and has as many NHL games under his belt as 4 of the 7 players picked ahead of him in his draft combined.

@FC:

All good points! I like Cooter a lot and I think we always need to remind ourselves how young he is... my big knock on him is his skating which I think can improve and I hope he turns into a very good 2nd line center. I think as he matures he will become more consistant as a player. Right now he is an unknown of sorts - he has great defensive skills but will he turn into an offensive contributor on a regular basis? Will he become an elite center or someone who is better suited as a 3rd line center? Time will tell...

The only way I would consider moving him is if there was a deal on the table that provided us a true #1 defenseman - Weber type dman and not a Yandle type.

[flyercanuck]

@murraycraven

I'd trade him for anything that seemed like overpayment...just like anybody else.