Did John Scott break "The Code"?

[J0e Th0rnton]

My own vote went top option #3. The code basically boils down to "we need enforcers top stop the dirty crap from being in the game. However, enforcers may only fight other enforcers, even if the other guy hasn't been doing any of the dirty stuff. As such let's just have the goons fight other goons after faceoffs."

 

JR

The code does not exist anymore.

It did long ago, but the instigator and the upbringing of players really made it go away.

 

Back in the day, an enforcer would go after a guy for intentionally spearing Yzerman, or slashing Gretzky, etc, and often you would see the other team get the message and back off when they saw probert or Semenko skating on the ice with that look. It often opened up a lot of space for the superstars.

 

But few are afraid of a little scrap these days.

 

Mind you, a goon like that has no business targetting a tiny skill player unless Kessel did something I did not see.

[nossagog]

WWGLD? What would Georges Laraque do?  Classy guy, great fighter.  One of the end of the era of "code enforcers".     Ask the guy if he wants to go, if he says yes, wish him luck and throw down. If not, oh well, maybe another time. And fight a guy in your own class.

 

The code is dead. 

[flyercanuck]

The Leafs lead the league in fights last year. They usually ice at least 2 'goons" every game (I think injuries may have prevented it against the Sabres). I don't feel sorry for them, what goes around comes around.

[Commander Clueless]

So I gotta ask... If Scott was out there to go after Kessel, what did Kessel do to deserve the attention? What got Scott yapping with Kessel in the first place?

 

This is the part I have issue with. Correct me if I'm wrong but the whole argument behind enforcers to to keep the other players in line. In this case, Kessel did not make a dirty play and had done nothing to earn the wrath of Scott. The Leafs as a team weren't taking liberties that I could see. No, this was a case of Scott being upset at the unfortunate result of a mutually agreed upon fight. Even if you think Devane maliciously hurt Tropp in that fight (which I really can't see), as an enforcer you fight Devane and make him answer the bell. You don't jump the other team's best player with one career (joke) fight to his name without trying to incite chaos. If he was mad enough to go out and fight somebody - fine...but the second you target the other team's top player like that you are crossing a line and asking for the insanity that followed. So in that sense, yes Scott "broke the code" and went from enforcer to goon.

 

Now that doesn't by any means excuse Kessel's hack and slash routine for which he should and will be suspended. It also doesn't excuse Clarkson's stupid idea to leave the bench. Those two Leafs responded very poorly to the situation.

 

Carlyle sending out his scoring line was an attempt to stop the emotions from running too high in a meaningless game. I wouldn't blame him on this either. If he sent fighters over the boards he would've probably taken flak for stirring things up so I guess he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

[Commander Clueless]

The Leafs lead the league in fights last year. They usually ice at least 2 'goons" every game (I think injuries may have prevented it against the Sabres). I don't feel sorry for them, what goes around comes around.

 

Big difference between dressing players to grind and fight and fighters jumping the other team's star players. Leading the league in mutually agreed upon fights is not the same as John Scott trying to fight Phil Kessel.

 

If this was a case of the Leafs' enforcers losing a bunch of fights I would agree with what you said. But to me, this is very different.

[radoran]

Carlyle sending out his scoring line was an attempt to stop the emotions from running too high in a meaningless game. I wouldn't blame him on this either. If he sent fighters over the boards he would've probably taken flak for stirring things up so I guess he was damned if he did and damned if he didn't.

 

Honestly, Carlyle's style begs for the reaction he got. The idea that he was trying "to stop the emotions from running too high" is belied by the point that this 6'8" goliath is bellowing at his bench and begging for a fight.

 

And his reaction was to try "to stop the emotions from running too high" by sending out a scoring line?

 

Emotions were too high already. Kessel reacted to Scott. Kessel engaged Scott. If Kessel was sent out "to stop the emotions from running too high" why is he running his yap with a guy who has made it clear he is looking for a confrontation? Why not just let the puck drop and use the fact that this pugilistic pylon is on the ice to try to score a goal instead of yapping?

 

Also, it wasn't the Buffalo goalie that called out Bernier. Bernier called out Miller.

 

Apparently trying to stop the emotions from running too high?

 

Carlyle is the punk on the playground that pushes every button he can find every chance he can get and then goes crying to the teacher when he gets smacked in the lip.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Well, I am now 100% convinced that Timmy P is a member here, under a pen-name.  This is from today's article.

 

http://www.csnphilly.com/hockey-philadelphia-flyers/rosehill-defends-clarkson-says-codes-changing

 

And the code? 

“Yeah, I know the code,” Rosehill said. “The code is changing. The rules are different. I know coaches recently say, ‘go after their skill.’ That is the mentality and that will keep [happening] because if two tough guys fight each other, what does that matter? There are different schools of thought.”

[Commander Clueless]

Honestly, Carlyle's style begs for the reaction he got. The idea that he was trying "to stop the emotions from running too high" is belied by the point that this 6'8" goliath is bellowing at his bench and begging for a fight.

 

And his reaction was to try "to stop the emotions from running too high" by sending out a scoring line?

 

Emotions were too high already. Kessel reacted to Scott. Kessel engaged Scott. If Kessel was sent out "to stop the emotions from running too high" why is he running his yap with a guy who has made it clear he is looking for a confrontation? Why not just let the puck drop and use the fact that this pugilistic pylon is on the ice to try to score a goal instead of yapping?

 

Also, it wasn't the Buffalo goalie that called out Bernier. Bernier called out Miller.

 

Apparently trying to stop the emotions from running too high?

 

Carlyle is the punk on the playground that pushes every button he can find every chance he can get and then goes crying to the teacher when he gets smacked in the lip.

 

 

I'm not Carlyle's biggest fan, but I disagree to an extent. Don't really think he sent Kessel out there with the mission to calm things down, I think he just sent out a scoring line to try to avoid the appearance of looking for another fight. Seems like pretty standard fare. He sends out goons then he looks like he's looking for trouble and then everyone criticizes him for that. Like I said, I think he was catching flak either way with the way Scott reacted, which he obviously didn't expect.

 

It's not like Kessel is some super pest that he sent out with the mission to goad people. Obviously Kessel was upset too and ran his mouth, but I really don't think that excuses Scott in any sense. He even said in the interview after he was going to jump someone regardless of who it was which seems to indicate it wasn't what Kessel did that set him off. I doubt Carlyle expected that reaction or he wouldn't have sent Kessel out opposite him.

 

Call it a mistake on Carlyle's part by all means (because it probably was) but that doesn't mean Carlyle was trying to get a response out of Buffalo.

 

I'd also like to point out I don't think Bernier vs Miller is relevant to the discussion as it happened after the brawl started, no? Bernier said he wanted to join the fight to help his teammates.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Commander Clueless

[radoran]

It's not like Kessel is some super pest that he sent out with the mission to goad people. Obviously Kessel was upset too and ran his mouth, but I really don't think that excuses Scott in any sense. He even said in the interview after he was going to jump someone regardless of who it was which seems to indicate it wasn't what Kessel did that set him off. I doubt Carlyle expected that reaction or he wouldn't have sent Kessel out opposite him.

 

Call it a mistake on Carlyle's part by all means (because it probably was) but that doesn't mean Carlyle was trying to get a response out of Buffalo.

 

I'm not saying that Carlyle was trying to get a response, I'm saying that the emotions had already boiled over.

 

Scott was already on the ice. He was calling out the Leafs bench. If Carlyle didn't expect Scott to go off on someone, he's a fool.

 

He was at home. He had last change. He put Kessel out there.

 

Scott didn't just drop the gloves and start pounding on a "skill guy" who was just standing there minding his business waiting for the puck to drop.

 

Kessel engaged Scott - again, knowing that Scott was looking for an excuse the drop the gloves.

 

This wasn't a surprise to anybody except Carlyle and maybe Kessel, apparently.

[Commander Clueless]

I'm not saying that Carlyle was trying to get a response, I'm saying that the emotions had already boiled over.

 

Scott was already on the ice. He was calling out the Leafs bench. If Carlyle didn't expect Scott to go off on someone, he's a fool.

 

He was at home. He had last change. He put Kessel out there.

 

Scott didn't just drop the gloves and start pounding on a "skill guy" who was just standing there minding his business waiting for the puck to drop.

 

Kessel engaged Scott - again, knowing that Scott was looking for an excuse the drop the gloves.

 

This wasn't a surprise to anybody except Carlyle and maybe Kessel, apparently.

 

It was probably the fact he was calling out the Leaf bench that Carlyle wanted to settle it down before it got out of hand.

 

Kessel and Carlyle didn't expect him to drop the gloves and go after Kessel, no. Because that's not a fight, that's "jumping" someone. I didn't expect him to either because it would incite a brawl...which is exactly what happened.

 

You were saying Carlyle is like a schoolyard bully when in this case it seems to me he was the one actually trying to settle it down. Kessel didn't buy into the theory but he obviously didn't expect Scott to drop the gloves and go after him.

 

Nothing Carlyle or Kessel did excuses Scott from dropping the gloves and going after Kessel. Nothing excuses Kessel from using his stick like a weapon. Carlyle's only mistake here, IMO, was underestimating just how pissed off Scott was - enough to go after a player who doesn't fight.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Commander Clueless

[radoran]

It was probably the fact he was calling out the Leaf bench that Carlyle wanted to settle it down before it got out of hand.

 

Kessel and Carlyle didn't expect him to drop the gloves and go after Kessel, no. Because that's not a fight, that's "jumping" someone. I didn't expect him to either because it would incite a brawl...which is exactly what happened.

 

You were saying Carlyle is like a schoolyard bully when in this case it seems to me he was the one actually trying to settle it down. Kessel didn't buy into the theory but he obviously didn't expect Scott to drop the gloves and go after him.

 

Nothing Carlyle or Kessel did excuses Scott from dropping the gloves and going after Kessel. Nothing excuses Kessel from using his stick like a weapon. Carlyle's only mistake here, IMO, was underestimating just how pissed off Scott was.

 

I'm not excusing Scott at all. Guy is a uselsss goon (as exemplified in the Tweet from katebits I posted).

 

As for Kessel "not expecting," I'll just repost this:

 

I'm dumb.  But, I'm not dumb enough to run my mouth to someone who's a hell of a lot bigger than me. 

 

If I did, I'd expect a fight.  And, if that fight happened, I hope I would have enough balls to not use my stick. 

 

If Kessel "didn't expect" Scott to do it, then Kessel's an idiot.

[Commander Clueless]

I'm not excusing Scott at all. Guy is a uselsss goon (as exemplified in the Tweet from katebits I posted).

 

As for Kessel "not expecting," I'll just repost this:

 

 

If Kessel "didn't expect" Scott to do it, then Kessel's an idiot.

 

I don't think it's quite that simple. By my observation, hockey players chirp each other on the ice and jostle each other before faceoffs all the time. Scott was chirping Kessel too. Doesn't mean you see people dropping their gloves and going after players like we saw the other night. I don't think Kessel not expecting to get jumped like that makes him an idiot at all, because it doesn't happen very often. The idiotic thing he did was trying to hack Scott's legs from under him.

[radoran]

I don't think it's quite that simple. By my observation, hockey players chirp each other on the ice and jostle each other before faceoffs all the time. Scott was chirping Kessel too. Doesn't mean you see people dropping their gloves and going after players like we saw the other night. I don't think Kessel not expecting to get jumped like that makes him an idiot at all, because it doesn't happen very often. The idiotic thing he did was trying to hack Scott's legs from under him.

 

You also don't find yourself standing next to a 6'8" goon very often.

 

In that context, Kessel might consider whether chirping at the goon to try to reduce the tension on the ice is the best move for his ongoing health.

[nothingbeatshockey]

There were no heroes out there.  Carlyle was in a no win situation - send the goons out and he's itching for a fight; send Keseel out and when the fight happens anyhow people complain that he had the last change.

 

Scott should not have engage Kessel; but Kessel was a fool for yapping it up with Scott.  He could've / should've known Scott was on the edge based on how he's was yelling at the bench.  Kessel provided just enough spark to set him off.

[hf101]

@nothingbeatshockey

 

Welcome to HockeyForums!

 

I'm not so sure Kessel said anything to set him off.  Scott was on the ice for one reason and that was to engage in a fight with whomever he was lined up with on the face off.

[radoran]

@nothingbeatshockey

 

I'm not so sure Kessel said anything to set him off.  Scott was on the ice for one reason and that was to engage in a fight with whomever he was lined up with on the face off.

 

It was obvious to anyone who had ever seen a NHL hockey game that Scott was gonna go with someone.

 

It also seems pretty clear that Kessel said something and I'm going to speculate that he wasn't asking him if he'd seen "Cloudy with a Chance of Meatballs 2".

[hf101]

So since Scott was determined to fight  - anyone.......Kessel probably didn't state anything to set the punches rolling.  Who knows if the video Shanny has can determine what he said.  IF he said he wasn't going to fignt or something along those lines, his suspension could be lessened.

[radoran]

So since Scott was determined to fight  - anyone.......Kessel probably didn't state anything to set the punches rolling.  Who knows if the video Shanny has can determine what he said.  IF he said he wasn't going to fignt or something along those lines, his suspension could be lessened.

 

http://video.tsn.ca/?dl=pipe42/latest/1/0/1008937/clip/0

 

How about raising his glove up towards Scott's face?

[hf101]

How about raising his glove up towards Scott's face?

 

I think it was raising his glove up to his shoulder.  

 

UPDATE:  Kessel suspended the rest of the pre-season.

 

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=60&id=447412&lang=en

 

 

LOL... Kessel was called out for his slashes against the Flyers.

[radoran]

I think it was raising his glove up to his shoulder.  

 

UPDATE:  Kessel suspended the rest of the pre-season.

 

http://video.nhl.com/videocenter/console?catid=60&id=447412&lang=en

 

 

LOL... Kessel was called out for his slashes against the Flyers.

 

If you're a goon and you see a glove moving towards your "upper body" how do you react?

[Polaris922]

@radoran

I understand your angle Rad, just disagree. If Scott had gone after Giroux and Giroux used his stick like a sword, you'd be glad he didn't get his facial bone structure rearranged. Regardless of the stick work, if Giroux had done nothing to deserve a beat down, you'd be cursing Scott as a pansy and a coward as much as I am. Fights aren't always one and done. Broken orbitals, concussions, eye injuries... They can have long lasting repercussions. And the fact that a non-talent like Scott goes after a talented player like Kessel is a blister on the ass of the NHL. I don't care what Kessel says or how many imaginary butterflies he swats away. Can you imagine if that were Gretzky out there Scott went after?

If you're a goon, fight other goons. Or at least fight someone who was the problem in the perceived slight. Not a 5'8 Girl Scout with facial hair.

[hf101]

If you're a goon and you see a glove moving towards your "upper body" how do you react?

 

The glove that was positioned to push Scott away wasn't the first interaction between these two.  They had words first.  Scott was on the ice to fight whomever he was lined up with.

 

Now to answer your question, If I'm a goon and payed to be a goon, then I'd be penalized also to be a goon.

[flyercanuck]

@Commander Clueless

 

 Carlisle made a bad choice sending out his top line in this situation. I'm not condoning what Scott did. But we all saw the Leafs send goons out many times last year for one reason only. And they didn't care who was on the ice. This time it bit them in the arse.

 

Take numbers, you'll play them again.

[radoran]

The glove that was positioned to push Scott away wasn't the first interaction between these two.  They had words first.  Scott was on the ice to fight whomever he was lined up with.

 

Now to answer your question, If I'm a goon and payed to be a goon, then I'd be penalized also to be a goon.

 

And he was penalized for it.

 

I'm not defending Scott - he's a no talent goon who's primary talent, again, is standing on skates swinging his fists. I'm saying that Carlyle knew what was going on and his attempts to "defuse" the situation was laughable. I'm saying that Kessel's yapping and then going face to face with Scott - including raising his glove - was part and parcel of what happened. I'm saying that Kessel's immediate swinging the stick and then the continued swinging of the stick including to the back of the legs of a player in a fight with another player was gutless and reprehensible.

 

I also don't believe that Laviolette would be stupid enough to put Giroux on the ice with Scott in that situation. Nor do I believe that Giroux would act in anything resembling the way that Kessel acted.

 

Again, if there's an angry 6'8" guy looking for a fight, skating up to and around him and yapping at him isn't exactly the way to "defuse" a situation or avoid getting your lunch handed to you.

 

Kessel couldn't take the words coming out of Scott's mouth so he overreacted and then acted like the gutless punk that many people feel he is.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Not a 5'8 Girl Scout with facial hair.

 

Damn, that's funny as hell right there.