so here's my question

[aziz]

yes, things are a mess, and it is almost understandable that some people are jumping on the hyperbole express, but i didn't think last night was a particularly bad game.  a few defensive breakdowns, giroux apparently not understanding in-zone defensive coverage, but overall things looked ok.  except one area that i just don't understand:  why do the flyers never have any space in the offensive zone?

 

the puck seems in the middle of an eternal scrum every time the flyers step across the offensive blueline.  they win the scrums sometimes, but when they do, they immediately dive right back into another.  after several of these, they squirt the puck out to a dman who one times the puck on net, but no one is set up in front, because all three forwards were just within 4 feet of each other against the boards.  i remember seeing the same thing back when brashear and handzus and primeau were around and the team loved that grinding cycle, but...this line up really seems built for open ice posession.  i know i'll take flak for it, but i even think they pass pretty ok.  so why this constant get-it-against-the-wall-and-invite-the-entire-other-team-over thing again and again?

 

i see the remnants of laviolette's left wing lock are still hanging around, and they seemed to fall back on that more and more as the game went on..and that's designed to create scrums, so there's some of it...but every posession seems to be driven against the boards and inched around for thirty seconds.  can it be that hard to change that approach?

[mojo1917]

I think some of the spacing issues go back to the poor breakouts, the Flyers forwards never seem to carry the puck over the blue line with any kind of speed, they're always dumping and chasing into the corners,  There's never a great move in the neutral zone that creates space for themselves.  I think the breakout problems are then dotted lined to skating, these guys were not in great shape and were not skating well at all at the start of the season.  I have seen improvement there too, there is still a decent way to go until they're moving the way they should. 

 

i agree there seems to be enough skilled guys to play a possession type game and am not sure why they do not, could it be confidence ?  they all with the exception of mark streit seem to rush with the puck on their tape, is that because they aren't skating ?   i was hoping to open the season around the .500 mark after the first month to 10 games, that's blown to hell, however i'm not going to throw in the towel with this bunch unless the management blows them up with a pile of trades.

[FreakinFlyersFan]

The only guy I saw last night in front of the net was Simmer, the rest seemed to scared to park themselves in front of the opposing team goalie. Giroux down right looked lazy and out of gas last night, can this guy skate anymore? The goal where Higgins scored on the Flyers last night was once again a offense collapse and it put Grossman out of position and left Higgins all by himself in front of Mason, why can't our offense cover the D?

[aziz]

The goal where Higgins scored on the Flyers last night was once again a offense collapse and it put Grossman out of position and left Higgins all by himself in front of Mason, why can't our offense cover the D?

 

and that was giroux's man.  he decided, instead, to cover the left goalpost in case the puck carrier reversed direction, even though that's coburn's spot and he was right there.

[touche22]

yes, things are a mess, and it is almost understandable that some people are jumping on the hyperbole express, but i didn't think last night was a particularly bad game.  a few defensive breakdowns, giroux apparently not understanding in-zone defensive coverage, but overall things looked ok.  except one area that i just don't understand:  why do the flyers never have any space in the offensive zone?

 

the puck seems in the middle of an eternal scrum every time the flyers step across the offensive blueline.  they win the scrums sometimes, but when they do, they immediately dive right back into another.  after several of these, they squirt the puck out to a dman who one times the puck on net, but no one is set up in front, because all three forwards were just within 4 feet of each other against the boards.  i remember seeing the same thing back when brashear and handzus and primeau were around and the team loved that grinding cycle, but...this line up really seems built for open ice posession.  i know i'll take flak for it, but i even think they pass pretty ok.  so why this constant get-it-against-the-wall-and-invite-the-entire-other-team-over thing again and again?

 

i see the remnants of laviolette's left wing lock are still hanging around, and they seemed to fall back on that more and more as the game went on..and that's designed to create scrums, so there's some of it...but every posession seems to be driven against the boards and inched around for thirty seconds.  can it be that hard to change that approach?

 

BINGO!

 

i was telling a friend last week this very thing and wishing i had some funding to make a short film of it.

 

Flyers scrumming (as they are known to do) and cycling the puck behind the net and to the corner. Vast amounts of energy being spent. Eventually it occurs to the defenders that they could just BACK OFF and do so. They back off enough that the entire defensive team just goes for a full line change while the flyers  are busy cycling the puck.

[aziz]

i figured out the problem

 

[coords]

I'm with aziz that some things looked good last night

 

And if you take out the open netters we are allowing less goals (Mason seems like a viable answer to me, knock knock knock)

 

My question is what did the Penguins do to use two playoffs ago?  Ever since then the team has been horrible on defense, and now has become horrible on offense.  I think we caught some strange disease or curse from them.  Hopefully we can reverse it on Thursday.  

 

I think I can take two more losses and then I'm done with this team.  Yes I'm all over the map with some holes in my points, but I learned it from watching them.

[radoran]

My question is what did the Penguins do to use two playoffs ago?  Ever since then the team has been horrible on defense, and now has become horrible on offense.  I think we caught some strange disease or curse from them.  Hopefully we can reverse it on Thursday.  

 

I think it goes back to what Elias said after the Devils' series about pressuring the Flyers with the puck and the Devils consistently having success using that method. I think "the word is out" and this Flyer team - having been groomed into the marmalade jam system for three years - still has the proclivities that expose them to it.

[doom88]

i figured out the problem

This season so far, that's absolutely true - in ALL zones.

[FlyersFan4Life]

I really think roo is injurered and flyers are covering it up. you look at him shooting the puck the zip is just not there like yrs past something is wrong with him, just like Richy had wrist issues covered up by the flyers and then traded

[aziz]

@FlyersFan4Life

 

maybe.  he definitely has a touch of forsbergitus, though, trying to do everything himself.  "i'm the best player on the team, i'm the captain, we're struggling, i have to fix it....so, i'm going to toe drag past this guy, though the legs on that guy, bring it wide on this guy, and, oops, lost the puck."

[Polaris922]

@FlyersFan4Life

maybe. he definitely has a touch of forsbergitus, though, trying to do everything himself. "i'm the best player on the team, i'm the captain, we're struggling, i have to fix it....so, i'm going to toe drag past this guy, though the legs on that guy, bring it wide on this guy, and, oops, lost the puck."

You Mean best player in the world!

Edited October 17, 2013 by Polaris922

[Bakanekimiwa]

You Mean best player in the world!

best player in the world? he's not even the best player on our team!

[mojo1917]

You Mean best player in the world!

No surprise then that the guy who uttered that phrase is collecting unemployment.

Here's the funny thing to me about this line of thought about Giroux, every single poster complains about the organizations lack of patience with the "young guys" . These same people want to run our team's best player out of town for struggling a bit because at 25 for the first time in his hockey life he's named captain of a team in the NHL. As far as OJT is concerned there's none. 28's play has been abismal this year, no question, and questions surrounding the organizations decision making process are valid, I think Giroux starts to "get it" soon and reverts to a 1.2 ppg player, people just need to have a little patience with him. In our town that doesn't come easily.

[radoran]

I really think roo is injurered and flyers are covering it up. you look at him shooting the puck the zip is just not there like yrs past something is wrong with him, just like Richy had wrist issues covered up by the flyers and then traded

 

If he is injured, he's helping nobody. If they're covering it up, they're stupid and, quite frankly, so is he. Ask Eric Lindros about the efficacy of "playing injured" for the Flyers and trying to "gut it out for the good of the team."

 

No surprise then that the guy who uttered that phrase is collecting unemployment.

Here's the funny thing to me about this line of thought about Giroux, every single poster complains about the organizations lack of patience with the "young guys" . These same people want to run our team's best player out of town for struggling a bit because at 25 for the first time in his hockey life he's named captain of a team in the NHL. As far as OJT is concerned there's none. 28's play has been abismal this year, no question, and questions surrounding the organizations decision making process are valid, I think Giroux starts to "get it" soon and reverts to a 1.2 ppg player, people just need to have a little patience with him. In our town that doesn't come easily.

 

mojo, "every single poster?" I haven't seen you complain about the org's lack of patience with young guys and then try to run him out of town. Are you sure it is "every single poster" that is complaining about that and the "same people" are trying to run Giroux out of town?

 

Broad brushes are good for housepainting, but the detail needs work.

 

The question, and it is a valid one, is whether or not making him a first-time captain in his career at the NHL level was a good idea when it was made. I maintained at the time it was not. Experience seems to be validating that concern. That's not "running him out of town."

 

The Flyers consistently try to dictate reality by their decree. Doesn't always work - rarely does, in fact - but that's how they play it.

 

I'm certainly not trying to run him out of town, but I would offer that the people who actually have the control over the team are the ones with the lack of patience in developing young players - even players they have made long-term commitments to. Nobody on this board has any control over who goes where and when. Homer does. And it was Homer that sent Richards and Crater packing after giving them 10-year-long deals (and making Richards captain "too early").

 

I'd say that "every single GM" the Flyers have has a lack of patience with young guys and tries to run them out of town "for struggling a bit."

[mojo1917]

@radoran nee @ruxpin

 

well not every single poster, present company excluded;   i was thinking of a couple of guys though...

 

I too questioned the wisdom of making G the captain when they did, but hoped he would grow into the role.  he's still got some work to do there. There were viable candidates that would have been fine with that role, why they were continually skipped over is a mystery. 

I see threads of "the captaincy of the flyers ? " and see posts that scream " strip the bum of the C ".  those types of thoughts are what i was referring to.

 

i think it would be good to fire Holmgren, have the next "new old hand" take the job and start fresh.  New boss man , new leadership group, that way the team can put an A on Claude's sweater , the C on someone else's and let the talented fella concentrate on his game without feeling the need to help the games of all 25 guys. 

 

i still see great irony in the willingness to worry about trading young guys for washed up has beens but then say the young guys playing suck and should be traded because they aren't 50/75 guys at 22 years old.   i see that all the time with regard to Couterier, and even Schenn who to me, has been the teams top forward after Vinny. 

Edited October 17, 2013 by mojo1917

[JackStraw]

The question, and it is a valid one, is whether or not making him a first-time captain in his career at the NHL level was a good idea when it was made. I maintained at the time it was not. Experience seems to be validating that concern.

 

Ok, I'll bite. What experience specifically is validating that position? Last season, a totally f'd-up strike shortened season, he was still a ppg player. According to wikipedia, from Feb 12 through the end of the season he was the 4th highest scoring player in the league. Then comes this season. Team has (according to basically everyone) a lousy pre-season, which Giroux misses most of due to injury. Team gets off to horrible start. Coach is fired. But we're only 7 games into an 82 game season. Giroux hasn't looked good, and he's admitted as much. Is the "experience" you're referring to these first 7 games?

 

Fwiw, I agree that Richards should not have been captain. He was never the team's best player (not that the C should be handed out on that basis but sometimes it does work out that way) and he obviously wasn't comfortable with the media. And maybe he enjoyed the Center City nightlife a bit too much. Maybe. Timonen was the obvious choice then. But none of those arguments really apply to Giroux. He is the team's best player. He is comfortable with the media. His team-mates clearly look to him. He seems a natural leader to me. And there is no veteran on a longish term contract who makes sense. Sure, it could have been given to Timonen on a year by year basis until he retires, but I don't really think that whether Kimmo wears a "C" or an "A" changes anything. Giroux was the obvious choice for captain imo, and I honestly can't think of any reason to believe that giving it to him has affected his game.

 

And having said all that, I think fans (especially Flyers fans) overstate the whole "captain" thing anyway. If Timonen had been given the C before last year and Giroux an A, or maybe no letter at all, I doubt that anything at all would be different. Other than maybe who calls team meetings (I'm sure Timo can do that any time he wants to anyway) and who gets to talk to the refs in the little semi-circle by the scorer's table.

[radoran]

Ok, I'll bite. What experience specifically is validating that position? Last season, a totally f'd-up strike shortened season, he was still a ppg player. According to wikipedia, from Feb 12 through the end of the season he was the 4th highest scoring player in the league. Then comes this season. Team has (according to basically everyone) a lousy pre-season, which Giroux misses most of due to injury. Team gets off to horrible start. Coach is fired. But we're only 7 games into an 82 game season. Giroux hasn't looked good, and he's admitted as much. Is the "experience" you're referring to these first 7 games?

 

Fwiw, I agree that Richards should not have been captain. He was never the team's best player (not that the C should be handed out on that basis but sometimes it does work out that way) and he obviously wasn't comfortable with the media. And maybe he enjoyed the Center City nightlife a bit too much. Maybe. Timonen was the obvious choice then. But none of those arguments really apply to Giroux. He is the team's best player. He is comfortable with the media. His team-mates clearly look to him. He seems a natural leader to me. And there is no veteran on a longish term contract who makes sense. Sure, it could have been given to Timonen on a year by year basis until he retires, but I don't really think that whether Kimmo wears a "C" or an "A" changes anything. Giroux was the obvious choice for captain imo, and I honestly can't think of any reason to believe that giving it to him has affected his game.

 

And having said all that, I think fans (especially Flyers fans) overstate the whole "captain" thing anyway. If Timonen had been given the C before last year and Giroux an A, or maybe no letter at all, I doubt that anything at all would be different. Other than maybe who calls team meetings (I'm sure Timo can do that any time he wants to anyway) and who gets to talk to the refs in the little semi-circle by the scorer's table.

 

IMO, they made the move as a "feel-good" PR move coming off the lockout to assuage fans and distract them from their discontent with the lockout. There was no real other "need" to make that move when they made it. None at all.

 

As for "overstating" the captain position, I'll just say:

 

Prongers

Richards

Smith

Forsberg

Hatcher

 

That's a heckuva track record the organization has picking their captain, don't you think?

 

Yes, injury to Pronger played a role in his demise, but Richards didn't turn into "the next Clarke", Smith was a mistake, Forsberg an abject disaster and Hatcher another trying to reclaim old glory with a fading star.

 

Giroux's position without the C had none of the focus which is on him now. You're also in the position where his first two seasons with the C could be the first back-to-back playoff miss since the Jay Snider years. Yes, the team is heavily involved in that.  Does it help him to take questions after every game about where his game went? Does he grip the stick easier in this circumstance? Or might be be trying to do "too much" (as has been pointed out by others)?

 

For me, Giroux was a better player when he could just "be G" and not be the captain of the squad. Again, not that he should never be captain. Just not now.

 

Happy to be wrong.

[JackStraw]

As for "overstating" the captain position, I'll just say:
 
Prongers
Richards
Smith
Forsberg
Hatcher
 
That's a heckuva track record the organization has picking their captain, don't you think?

 

Do you think that the fact that any of those players being named captain significantly determined the results at the end of the season? I don't. Pronger and Hatcher were good captains, imo. Smith probably was, behind the scenes. Forsberg was never a captain type, and Richards I already mentioned. I'm kind of curious to know what affect people think the captain has on the fortunes of the team. If Timo had been captain last year, would that have helped the team's 5 on 5 transition game? (Answer is no). Would it have prevented the mass of injuries on the blue line (no again). What difference would a different captain have made last year. Or for that matter, this year? If Giroux was not captain, do you think he would be playing better now? If so, why? Captain or not, he's the team's best player. The team is going to look to him, as are the fans, the media and the coaching staff. Letter or no letter. The pressure on him would be there regardless.

 

Flyers fans have to stop waiting for the next Bobby Clarke. That kind doesn't come along very often.

[Polaris922]

I don't think the organization had a choice in the matter. Everyone here was singing Giroux praises after his opening shift in the playoff game. He was clearly your best guy in that series, and whether he wore the C or not, he became the leader of the team. To give it to anyone else on that roster would have been false advertising, and most likely deflating to not just Giroux, but the men who had been following his lead. Trust me, I know a thing or two about leading and following.

You had nobody else. Timonen? Soft spoken slowing down could barely skate in the playoffs Timonen? That would've been back breaking. Who else??

The organization (as much as it pains me to say it) did the right thing with Giroux. I don't think he's a top tier player ala Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, etc... But there are only a handful. He's shown he's right behind them though, and its just a matter of time till he's back on track.

[JackStraw]

He was clearly your best guy in that series, and whether he wore the C or not, he became the leader of the team. To give it to anyone else on that roster would have been false advertising, and most likely deflating to not just Giroux, but the men who had been following his lead.

 

Bingo.

[aziz]

I'm kind of curious to know what affect people think the captain has on the fortunes of the team.

That is an interesting question, but the one that strikes me in this situation is, "what effect does the captaincy have on the player?"

You're right, at this point giroux isn't going to be able to hide in the shadows whether he has the C or not. He's the best player on the team, he is going to be in the spotlight. Still. The C adds an extra glare that I don't think he needs to be dealing with. Carter was the best offensive player on the team in his last few seasons in Philly, but Richards and pronged got the majority of the attention, the extra glare. I think giroux would benefit from someone else acting as team spokesman, especially when both the player and the team are struggling. As it stands, he is expected to answer for both. I think his chances of getting his game back in track would be higher if it was his primary concern.

[radoran]

I don't think the organization had a choice in the matter. Everyone here was singing Giroux praises after his opening shift in the playoff game. He was clearly your best guy in that series, and whether he wore the C or not, he became the leader of the team. To give it to anyone else on that roster would have been false advertising, and most likely deflating to not just Giroux, but the men who had been following his lead. Trust me, I know a thing or two about leading and following.

You had nobody else. Timonen? Soft spoken slowing down could barely skate in the playoffs Timonen? That would've been back breaking. Who else??

The organization (as much as it pains me to say it) did the right thing with Giroux. I don't think he's a top tier player ala Crosby, Datsyuk, Malkin, etc... But there are only a handful. He's shown he's right behind them though, and its just a matter of time till he's back on track.

 

Sure, they had a choice. They didn't have to give the C out at all.

[radoran]

That is an interesting question, but the one that strikes me in this situation is, "what effect does the captaincy have on the player?"

You're right, at this point giroux isn't going to be able to hide in the shadows whether he has the C or not. He's the best player on the team, he is going to be in the spotlight. Still. The C adds an extra glare that I don't think he needs to be dealing with. Carter was the best offensive player on the team in his last few seasons in Philly, but Richards and pronged got the majority of the attention, the extra glare. I think giroux would benefit from someone else acting as team spokesman, especially when both the player and the team are struggling. As it stands, he is expected to answer for both. I think his chances of getting his game back in track would be higher if it was his primary concern.

 

I believe the phrase is "bingo"?

 

[Polaris922]

Sure, they had a choice. They didn't have to give the C out at all.

That would be just as fruitless. Everyone knew he was the captain with or without the letter stapled to his nipple. He'd get the same attention and feel the same responsibility.

Edited October 17, 2013 by Polaris922