Timmy P's Thoughts on Emery

[King Knut]

It's really difficult for me to grasp how someone who covers hockey for a living could be so out if touch.

There was a lot going on Friday night that wa completely inexcusable and Rat Emery was one of the least egregious transgressors as far as most flyers fans are concerned.

Regrettable? Yes, but it's more symbolic than offensive.

Let's put aside the flyers for a moment... The NHL in which a player "declines" to fight in that situation in a game like that is truly a shameful shameful state of affairs.

You don't politely decline to fight. You skate away, you Turtle, or you grab his arms and try to make it look good then tell him you don't want to. I.e. you do exactly what ray suggested, you defend yourself.

What has this league come to when a player doesn't even know how to defend himself?

And I don't mean that he doesn't know how to fight back, I mean that he doesn't know how to put up his hands to block the fists coming at his face.

Ray was pissed. He's pusses his team sucks so bad. He's pissed they're not giving Mason much support at all I spite of how well he's been and ray's also pissed that he's not getting more starts.

This isn't why emery came here.. To play one out of 8 or 10 on the worst team in the league (ok maybe not technically).

This is how hockey is played.

Physicality is part of the gamesmanship.

The diving that goes on and the head hunting. And the dangerous hits that abound are present because there are simply no consequences or it.

Because the league had been Disney-fied for mass appeal in an effort to make more and more money.

But cleaning up the game isn't really helping much because its leading to far more savage aggression a than a fist fight.

Ray Emery put a face in the disgust and angst most Philly fans are feelin right now.

Timmy P should have written a story about that. Instead he decided to write a piece discrediting the only flyer doing much that the fans can identify with and appreciate from a sympathetic standpoint.

To paraphrase Chris rock, "I ain't saying he should have beat the guy senseless.... But I understand. "

[ruxpin]

Agree with Timmy P. on this one.

[King Knut]

No one's saying what ray did was okay or should be encouraged... That wasn't my point.

The point was with everything that's going on with this team, I think Timmy's POV on the story choice too critical a stance. Ray's action were unacceptable but understandable or at least relatable. The teams's performance is neither acceptable no understandable. It's downright baffling and incredibly vexing.

"Ray's naughty" is a piss poor thesis for an article.

"Ray's naughty, but it's emblematic of a lot more than a naughty player" is a better basis for an article.

Don't just be a contrarian jerk because you have a pulpit. Say something worth reading.

[ruxpin]

Lol. Is contrarian your word for the day? The nice thing about it is that my droid just learned a new word!

In Timmy's defense, the Emery thing was something new and different to write about. Otherwise, it's just recycle any one of the "Flyers lost and looked bad doing it" articles.

[ruxpin]

"Ray's naughty, but it's emblematic of a lot more than a naughty player" is a better basis for an article.

 

Somehow missed this line the first time.   Yes, I agree with that.

[aziz]

Timmy P should have written a story about that. Instead he decided to write a piece discrediting the only flyer doing much that the fans can identify with and appreciate from a sympathetic standpoint.

 

i can't get behind that.  i can't come up with a single reason emery would do what he did that doesn't involve "pathetic" and, well, that's really all:  just pathetic.  what is it you, as a fan, can identify and appreciate from a sympathetic standpoint about ray emery traveling 200 feet to fight the one guy on the ice he has had exactly zero interaction with, zero reason to be unhappy with?

 

a goalie who is frustrated and decides to take overblown exception to a skater poking a little too hard at a covered puck, sure, do that.  go after him.  goalie jumping into an uneven scrum near him, yeah, jump in.  goalie skating the length of the ice to deal with another goalie who has jumped into the previously mentioned scrum, absolutely.  skating the length of the ice to fight a guy who is doing nothing, has had no opportunity to say or do anything to you, is just standing there and wants no part of any of it...all in the name of distracting people from the profoundly embarrassing numbers on the scoreboard?  pathetic.

 

there are way better ways to show backbone than to goon it up for sake of gooning it up.

[canoli]

well - goalies fight goalies right? That's what that was about. Your scenarios may make more sense but the time-honored tradition is: Goalies Fight Goalies.

 

2nd, what's so pathetic about a brawl that distracts fans from the beatdown on the ice? Fans buy expensive tickets, pay to park, etc. they deserve some entertainment. We can debate whether fighting in hockey is entertaining or not but it's been part of the NHL for an awfully long time. So...the Flyers were getting their asses kicked and decided to do some ass-kicking themselves in the only way they could, with their fists. Is that a sad reflection of the current state of affairs for the Flyers, at least for that night? Yes it is - their game was nowhere and they knew it. Frustration, embarrassment, etc. are pretty strong motivators and I wasn't the least surprised when the fights broke out. If Ray Emery hadn't skated down to Holtby...that would've surprised me.

[King Knut]

Wait?  Aziz disagrees with something?  

 

I am Jack's complete lack of surprise.

 

While I disagree with your sentiment about "pathetic" and "goonery" mostly because nothing could ever be more pathetic than the game going on preceding Ray's actions and also because Goonery is a part of the game and jesus christ what did you grow up watching the Penguins? 

 

But all that aside, you must have skimmed over the part where I said I don't condone what Ray did.  While I don't think it's as bad as you because I don't know... I've watched hockey my whole life... I don't think it's what should be happening out there.

 

What is obvious though is that I must ask TimmP's forgiveness for clearly he understands better than I that attempting nuance and intellect with this audience is clearly a futile effort.

 

 

 

i can't get behind that. i can't come up with a single reason emery would do what he did that doesn't involve "pathetic" and, well, that's really all: just pathetic.

[aziz]

well - goalies fight goalies right? That's what that was about. Your scenarios may make more sense but the time-honored tradition is: Goalies Fight Goalies.

 

to me, the only goalie fight that make any sense are when one of them has gotten involved with a skater and the other goalie has come to even things up.  two goalies just casually meeting at center ice to fight is stupid enough; they are the only two players in the game with no reason at all to have feelings one way or the other about their counterpart, they are never closer than 60 feet, and even then only when one goes to the bench during a delayed call in the second period.  to take that further and have one of them travel the entire length of the ice to seek the other goalie out, have the other goalie be all, "hey, no, i have no reason to fight you" and then start pummeling him anyway, even once he's gone down, once the thing was well and truly won.  that's pathetic.  

 

again, if emery wanted to show everyone that he was a badass, to take their mind off of 4 goals on 15 shots, there were five opposing skaters around him quite a bit.  many times he could have said, "OH HELL NO, YOU DON'T DIG AT PUCKS ON ME, RRAAAAAAHHH" and gone after that guy.  everyone would have been all, "hey, ray's sticking up for himself, he isn't taking any more of this crap, good on him."  emery fought peters, afterall, he can swing with the toughest of them.  instead, he sought out the one person completely removed from any part of the game emery was involved in, a person who indicated he had no intention of making an interesting fight of it, and beat on him.  just...beat on him.  yeah, a real tough guy.  inspiring.  please don't notice the .733sv%, i'm going to go punch a guy in the back of the head, a guy i had to tell to defend himself.  awesome.

[Mad Dog]

@canoli

 

Completely, totally disagree with you on this subject. Aziz answered it all, but I will say it again. There was no *reason*, no incentive for Emery to be involved with Holtby. Zero. Holtby was not even involved with this fight, did not participate in the fight. He was standing and minding his own business until Emery attacked and assaulted him. There should be no place for this in professional hockey.  

 

This was embarrassing. It's bad enough the Flyers embarrassed the city and themselves with this ridiculous performance at home, but they had to make matters worse by embarrassing themselves even more and showing they have no clue how to even lose. They can't even do that with class?

 

They are making it very easy to dislike them.  Instead of worrying about how to get out of the cellar and improve the state they are in right now, they had to embark in this?  This group of Flyers players is beyond pathetic.  I have never had so much loathing for the team I root for. 

Edited November 4, 2013 by Mad Dog

[canoli]

I hear you loud and clear. As I noted already your scenarios make more sense - i.e. they're legitimate reasons for a goalie to start swinging.

 

But goalies fight goalies and that's the way it's always been. I was there that night in '04 against Ottawa and watched Esche and Lalime go at it: they had "no contact" prior to the fight. So what? The teams were brawling and the goalies felt compelled to get in on the action.

 

As far as Holtby politely declining...sorry but that's b.s. You protect yourself when someone comes at you or you get beat on. That's just how it goes. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it honorable and I agree with you Emery took it too far when he kept wailing on him...but Holtby put himself in that position and kinda deserved what he got. And let's face it Ray didn't pummel him into the ice, he got a few good whacks in that's about all. No lasting damage. So let's not get too crazy over it.

 

[edit: just to be clear - that brawl, Emery's actions - none of it made me "proud" or psyched - "wow look at my Flyers go!" No, none of that. But OTOH it didn't disgust me either the way some of you guys seem to be saying. Like I said I expected it - I expected more actually - a repeat of the '04 Sens brawl. This was pretty tame all in all.]

Edited November 4, 2013 by canoli

[aziz]

 

 

While I disagree with your sentiment about "pathetic" and "goonery" mostly because nothing could ever be more pathetic than the game going on preceding Ray's actions and also because Goonery is a part of the game and jesus christ what did you grow up watching the Penguins? 

 

 

that's the thing.  the one thing more pathetic than having your team get rolled over 7-0 and a goalie giving up 4 goals on 15 shots is that goalie trying to making things better by punching an unwilling combatant in the head.  

 

What is obvious though is that I must ask TimmP's forgiveness for clearly he understands better than I that attempting nuance and intellect with this audience is clearly a futile effort.

 

look, timmy p is a tool, but i just can't disagree with him on this one.  i don't know where the nuance is when a goalie puts on one of the worst displays of goaltending i've seen in a long time, and then tries to make that better by seeking out a player he's had no interaction with and throwing a big boy temper tantrum.  that isn't just goonery, like going out and playing a rough game that provokes a fight.  it is trying to throw forgive-me dust in everyone's eyes by hoping some bloodlust will paper over the shamefull effort, and absolutely any bloodlust will do, whether there is context or not.

 

if your team is getting killed, you have two options.  one, take it, put your tail between your legs, let the clock run out, and try to at least be decent losers.  two, put your shoulders through everyone and everything and have no patience for any crap, make sure the other team leaves with some deep bruises, and show them (and your fans) that you have a spine and a backbone and will keep at least some dignity by answering even the slightest insult.  

 

option three of find some non-fighter who doesn't want to fight and then punch him repeatedly for no reason at all like a frustrated 5 yearold smashing lamps is beyond sad.  that game was one of the most embarrassing moments of being a flyers fan ever, and it wasn't just because of the scoreboard.

[murraycraven]

@canoli

 

Completely, totally disagree with you on this subject. Aziz answered it all, but I will say it again. There was no *reason*, no incentive for Emery to be involved with Holtby. Zero. Holtby was not even involved with this fight, did not participate in the fight. He was standing and minding his own business until Emery attacked and assaulted him. There should be no place for this in professional hockey.  

 

This was embarrassing. It's bad enough the Flyers embarrassed the city and themselves with this ridiculous performance at home, but they had to make matters worse by embarrassing themselves even more and showing they have no clue how to even lose. They can't even do that with class?

 

They are making it very easy to dislike them.  Instead of worrying about how to get out of the cellar and improve the state they are in right now, they had to embark in this?  This group of Flyers players is beyond pathetic.  I have never had so much loathing for the team I root for. 

 

 

Well said MD... is was on ice thuggery...  this was worse than the Pens throwing temper tantrums in the playoffs - which everyone was upset about.  

Edited November 4, 2013 by murraycraven

[aziz]

 

But goalies fight goalies and that's the way it's always been. I was there that night in '04 against Ottawa and watched Esche and Lalime go at it: they had "no contact" prior to the fight. So what? The teams were brawling and the goalies felt compelled to get in on the action.

 

no.  esche waded into the scrum in front of him and started getting his hands on senators players.  that made it 6 flyers and 5 senators involved and lalime came the length of the ice even it up.  that's a different thing; that's entirely appropriate.

 

visions of this was going through my head friday night:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s92LY161Gww

[King Knut]

watch it again.

 

 

The ref could have stopped it.  he didn't.  Holtby may not have been willing, but he is throwing punches too.

 

Emery should have stopped when Holtby went to his knees... but Holtby should have turtled after he didn't.  Christ, it's what I would have done.

 

Holtby clearly didn't want to fight.  But he did anyway.  Let's not pretend he went to his knees and begged Emery not to hit him, okay?

 

Your characterization of what Emery did is unfair.  You may not like it, and we may agree that there were better ways to handle things, but let's be honest, he went for Holtby because he was the goalie and goalies aren't allowed to fight anyone else.  He didn't go for him because he's a non fighter.

 

And like I said, this isn't some new technique.  this is the kind of thing all players, including sometimes goalies have done in the NHL for many many years.  Just not the last few because the NHL's perception of how the game needs to be played has become skewed.

 

What Emery didn't isn't really that much of an anomaly.

 

Honestly, this is the kind of thing I expected to happen after that ridiculous Hertl goal against the rangers.

 

Timmy P is a tool though... I love that we have that common ground on this.

 

that's the thing. the one thing more pathetic than having your team get rolled over 7-0 and a goalie giving up 4 goals on 15 shots is that goalie trying to making things better by punching an unwilling combatant in the head.

[fanaticV3.0]

I hear you loud and clear. As I noted already your scenarios make more sense - i.e. they're legitimate reasons for a goalie to start swinging.

 

But goalies fight goalies and that's the way it's always been. I was there that night in '04 against Ottawa and watched Esche and Lalime go at it: they had "no contact" prior to the fight. So what? The teams were brawling and the goalies felt compelled to get in on the action.

 

As far as Holtby politely declining...sorry but that's b.s. You protect yourself when someone comes at you or you get beat on. That's just how it goes. Doesn't make it right, doesn't make it honorable and I agree with you Emery took it too far when he kept wailing on him...but Holtby put himself in that position and kinda deserved what he got. And let's face it Ray didn't pummel him into the ice, he got a few good whacks in that's about all. No lasting damage. So let's not get too crazy over it.

 

[edit: just to be clear - that brawl, Emery's actions - none of it made me "proud" or psyched - "wow look at my Flyers go!" No, none of that. But OTOH it didn't disgust me either the way some of you guys seem to be saying. Like I said I expected it - I expected more actually - a repeat of the '04 Sens brawl. This was pretty tame all in all.]

 

Say what?

[aziz]

he went for Holtby because he was the goalie and goalies aren't allowed to fight anyone else.

 

huh?  says who?

[aziz]

And like I said, this isn't some new technique.  this is the kind of thing all players, including sometimes goalies have done in the NHL for many many years. 

 

really, the only time i can think of where a goalie went after and continued going after another goalie who was not involved in anything and wanted no part of it was roy's kid.  i can't think of any at the NHL level.  they may very well be out there, but i can't think of any.

[Mad Dog]

Say what?

 

Yeah, that's what completely got me confused, also. For a second I was thinking perhaps I missed some important piece of the game. But as far as I remember, Holtby was standing in his crease, not taking ANY part in the fight. Once could not be any more passive than Holtby in that particular moment. Emery came all the way from the opposite end of the ice and brutally assaulted the guy who had no participation in the fight.

 

What "position" Holtby put himself to deserve being viciously attacked?

[radoran]

If Emery was wearing a Blackhawks uniform and did the same thing to Mason wearing a Flyers uniform, many Flyers' fans opinion of the situation would be 180 degrees reversed.

 

It was a ridiculous thing to do, had zero effect on the outcome of the game and just reflected the fact that Emery was getting his butt kicked at the actual game he's hired to play.

[fanaticV3.0]

Yeah, that's what completely got me confused, also. For a second I was thinking perhaps I missed some important piece of the game. But as far as I remember, Holtby was standing in his crease, not taking ANY part in the fight. Once could not be any more passive than Holtby in that particular moment. Emery came all the way from the opposite end of the ice and brutally assaulted the guy who had no participation in the fight.

 

 

 

What "position" Holtby put himself to deserve being viciously attacked?

 

That's what I'd like to know too.

[The Quigster]

With the money these guys make I wouldn't lose any sleep over it!

[ruxpin]

Say what?

 

I'll second that.  What position did Holtby put himself in?  Being goaltender in a game where Emery was the opposing goaltender (if so, let's be fair, Emery wasn't even playing when Holtby started)?

 

Pitching a shutout?

 

Standing in his crease?

 

I don't get the "Holtby put himself in that position and kinda deserved what he got" thing.  At all.

[ruxpin]

I grew up watching the Bullies.

 

I love goalie fights.  I really do.  I used to love watching Hextall.   In an 0-7 spanking, Hextall probably would have randomly attacked some fool who came too close to his crease rather than go all the way down the other end to attack another goalie minding his own business.  I suppose attacking some skater just randomly skating by is kind of "assault" in its own right, but it somehow would have been more acceptable.

 

I loved watching the Roy/Vernon battles.  And I loved seeing the Esche/Lalime thing.  Actually, I loved that entire thing.

 

But this--for me--completely lacked that charged up "ooh, a goalie fight!" thing.   It was an entirely pathetic team playing stunningly pathetically having absolutely no character or class or self-respect or any other positive attribute having it's sieve of a backup goalie suddenly snap, skate the length of the ice, and assault someone standing there in his own net.

 

"Pathetic" is being thrown around quite a bit, but it really is the only word that describes the entire game Friday night.  The Emery thing wasn't the start of the idiocy on Friday night.  It was just the exclamation point on it.

[canoli]

are you guys just being deliberately obtuse or what? (fan, MD - whoever else couldn't grasp the concept)

 

Holtby "kinda got what he deserved" because he pretended there's such a thing as "politely declining" an invitation to fight. Maybe you guys led sheltered lives or something I don't know - LOL (jk) - but where I come from somebody challenges you to a fight you fight.

 

and again (again)...I didn't enjoy it very much, I didn't get any kind of old-school, "BSB are back!" thrill out of it, I'm only saying A) I expected it - including Emery/Holtby, and B) it's really not that big a deal.

 

the only surprise in that whole mess was Holtby. I'm sure it's happened before but I can't recall ever seeing a player try to talk his opponent out of fighting. I had to sit there and watch Avery pound on Carle a couple seasons ago, while the entire Garden went howling crazy like they were watching Frazier/Ali or something...Carle is no fighter but at least he had the good sense to try meeting Avery - even though Avery jumped him from behind basically...and then Carle turtled when he had enough. That's how it's done. You don't try and talk your way out of fighting. Jeez. Embarrassed? You bet - not Emery - Holtby.