They're just getting worse and worse

[Mad Dog]

When does somebody finally stand up and say "The Buck Stops Here!"

 

Ideally, this should be Snider, but he will again blame everybody and everything else but the team.  The Flyers hardly ever take responsibility for their actions.

 

If this continues, the Flyers are slowly but surely en route to be finishing the season with the worst record in the league. 

[fanaticV3.0]

I think the problem is multi-fold, unfortuntely.  But one of the most obvious issues I see is the lack of structure and direction that coaches are supposed to be providing to their players.  There is no methodology or clear sense as to how this team plays.  There is no identity.  One thing that *has* been constant with this team even going back to teh last season is chaos in all three zones.  Last season people were blaming it on Bryzgalov and that the players had no confidence in him and, as a result,  were playing scary.  Well, we both know Bryzgalov has been long gone.  Yet they still are playig like they have no clue what they are doing on the ice.

 

I refuse to believe that these players can do no better than their records and, more importantly, their play shows. Giroux, Voracek, Simmonds, Hartnell, Mez, Timonen, B Schenn couldn't suddenly forget how to play fundemental hockey. 

 

I put this squarely on the coach.

 

 

I don't comprehend how anyone can say this. They've been bad with two separate coaches this year and you even mention individual players shortcomings this season, but this is a coaching problem? You even brought up that last year supposedly they "had no confidence" in the goalie. At what point is this about the guys on the ice not producing? How can you ignore how bad they are playing and come up with excuse-after-excuse for why it isn't their fault? Where's the personal responsibility?

 

Plus, this is obviously a very deep and wide problem. There's a lot of people making mistakes here. Management, coaches, players. I just don't see the difficult thing about acknowledging that. This is not one person's problem and other people's problems are not the fault of one person.

Edited November 8, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[DaGreatGazoo]

OK, this is all nice and good, but you still need to know how to actually COACH, you see. I would agree when some people say that x's and o's get overblown a little bit today. OK, fine, I don't think the coach-nerd will necessarily lead the team to the Stanley Cup. But he should at least possess some rudimentary ides how to coach.

 

They had him, his name is Ken Hitchcock, and they fired him--and replaced him with a coach with no NHL head coaching experience.  

 

**EDIT**  I just noticed that the last Flyers coach with a LOSING record when he was fired, was Terry Simpson, 20 years ago.  That's a whole different topic for another thread, IMO.  

Edited November 8, 2013 by DaGreatGazoo

[pilldoc]

 They've been bad with two separate coaches this year and you even mention individual players shortcomings this season, but this is a coaching problem?

I see your side of your post, but the problem with Berube is he has NO NHL head coaching experience.  This team needs a bona-fide head coach with experience.  Not a time for on the job training with Berube.

 

They had him, his name is Ken Hitchcock, and they fired him--and replaced him with a coach with no NHL head coaching experience.  

 

 

BINGO!!!  Lavy had the experience.  So did he really lose the locker room or was he just a scape goat?

[fanaticV3.0]

They had him, his name is Ken Hitchcock, and they fired him--and replaced him with a coach with no NHL head coaching experience.  

 

**EDIT**  I just noticed that the last Flyers coach with a LOSING record when he was fired, was Terry Simpson, 20 years ago.  That's a whole different topic for another thread, IMO.  

 

But he....."lost the room".

[fanaticV3.0]

I see your side of your post, but the problem with Berube is he has NO NHL head coaching experience.  This team needs a bona-fide head coach with experience.  Not a time for on the job training with Berube.

 

BINGO!!!  Lavy had the experience.  So did he really lose the locker room or was he just a scape goat?

 

But the team already had an experienced NHL coach and the team still sucked under him. So tell me how this is a coaching issue?

[aziz]

I don't comprehend how anyone can say this. They've been bad with two separate coaches this year and you even mention individual players shortcomings this season, but this is a coaching problem?

 

i think it conceivable that the team decayed under laviolette from a systems perspective, and berube is doing nothing to fix that.  so, it isn't two coaches *causing* the same problem, it was one coach who caused and a second who is just incapable of repairing.

 

At what point is this about the guys on the ice not producing? How can you ignore how bad they are playing and come up with excuse-after-excuse for why it isn't their fault? Where's the personal responsibility?

 

two things:  one, watch the team and watch how they execute the larger strategic things on the ice, breakouts, transition, forecheck, backcheck.  they are all a mess, they are all a jumble and any particular moment is likely to blow up in their face because no one is in any particular position, no one is where they need to accomplish anything as a unit.  the problem there is the individual players, sure, to the extent that they aren't anywhere useful, but it is more a problem of the unit on the ice having no coordination and not working to any common end.  that's the coaches job.  second, the breadth of the problems with the individual players just makes it impossible that they, one by one, are the issue.  i find it amazingly unlikely that 18 skaters colllectively began playing terrible hockey, all at the same time, because of shortcoming they as individuals have.  mistakes they as individuals are making.  a player here and there having a rough spot, sure, but an entire team's worth of players who can not execute anything in any aspect of the game is just too big to be about the individuals.  if giroux alone weren't producing, then ok, he needs to step it up.  when absolutely everyone is not producing, that's something else.

 

Plus, this is obviously a very deep and wide problem. There's a lot of people making mistakes here. Management, coaches, players. I just don't see the difficult thing about acknowledging that.

 

yeah, but the way acute nature of this thing says there has to be some specific root cause.  a root cause that is exasperating other issues, maybe, but one thing that is holding the team this far down.  maybe this squad as built by holmgren is only as good as winnepeg, but...winnepeg has almost twice the goal total the flyers do.  maybe these players are all overvalued and are all just middle of the pack, but...the league average for goals scored right now is 2.3 goals, and only 4 flyers are even at that level.  league average is 5.4 points, only 3 flyers have that many.  

 

many mistakes have been made, but something specific is causing this level of problem.  this team isn't playing poorly, this team is playing the worst hockey i've seen, definitely since The Bad Year 2006, and possibly worse than that.  this is for-the-ages bad, many things may contribute to that, but i think one thing has taken it to this potentially historic level.

[DaGreatGazoo]

But he....."lost the room".

 

Yeah...I forgot...the "lost the room" problem.  Hasn't every Flyers coach in 20 years(expect Stevens) lost the room?

 

"sigh"

[Mad Dog]

I don't comprehend how anyone can say this. They've been bad with two separate coaches this year and you even mention individual players shortcomings this season, but this is a coaching problem? You even brought up that last year supposedly they "had no confidence" in the goalie. At what point is this about the guys on the ice not producing? How can you ignore how bad they are playing and come up with excuse-after-excuse for why it isn't their fault? Where's the personal responsibility?

 

Plus, this is obviously a very deep and wide problem. There's a lot of people making mistakes here. Management, coaches, players. I just don't see the difficult thing about acknowledging that. This is not one person's problem and other people's problems are not the fault of one person.

 

What @aziz said.  He said it perfectly and there isn't much to be added on my part.  Yes, they have been bad with two separate coaches and both coaches had their specific shortcomings.  If you take your car to one incompetent mechanic, he screws it up, you take it to teh second equally bad mechanic, and he screws it up, does it mean your car is not fixable?  Just because tehre were 2 coaches and each failed, doesn't mean none of them had issues.

 

I am not solely excusing the players.  My point is I can't  see how these players be struggling to this extent.  Yes, it's a very serious issue, but I can't imagine it's all on players.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Mad Dog

[SwedeFly]

nothing else makes sense.

I agree.

Berube is not a tactician (even though Homer made the statement that Berube is one of the most brilliant minds in hockey)

The evidence is in the four-ring circus unfolding on the ice every night.

[pilldoc]

But the team already had an experienced NHL coach and the team still sucked under him. So tell me how this is a coaching issue?

It is a coaching issue when you bring in a coach with "0" - ZERO head coaching experince in the NHL.

 

Let me give you an example.....

 

Several years ago both my wife and I became foster parents.  We are new this who process.  Our first child we recieved into out home was way more difficult than what the social worker let on.  After several weeks of some very trying circumstances both my wife and I made a decision that this child needed more experienced foster parents than what we could give to this child.   We had ZERO experience in helping this child.  The same can be said with Berube..  He has ZERO experience.  Is it really his fault no....I blame the GM bringing a head coach with no experience to the mix, 

 

Is it really all Berube's fault....no ...but when you have NO experience to fall back on...well just saying......

 

IMO opinion this team needs an experienced coach.....not sure where to find one though.....

Edited November 8, 2013 by pilldoc

[ruxpin]

the one place you CAN NOT score a goal is behind the opposing goal.

 

Unless you're  Patrick Kane and Michael Leighton is in net.

[wcflyer]

If this is Berube's mess and he is incapable of fixing it, then it's really Homer's mess for hiring someone "beyond this season" to try and fix it. It's long overdue for a new culture in Philly.

[pilldoc]

Unless you're  Patrick Kane and Michael Leighton is in net.

very well played my friend! Touche'

[pilldoc]

If this is Berube's mess and he is incapable of fixing it, then it's really Homer's mess for hiring someone "beyond this season" to try and fix it. It's long overdue for a new culture in Philly.

Really this is Ed / Homer's fault.  There was no reason to be putting a rookie coach with NO NHL experience in this spot.  Berube was set up to fail from the get go.......

 

I really cannot see Berube past this year.  They should have just slapped the "Interim" Coach on Berube and be done with it.

[murraycraven]

We dont need a culture change! We like our culture the way it is! We know who we are dealing with!

Oh Eddie... You ass.

[JackStraw]

the one place you CAN NOT score a goal is behind the opposing goal.  you can set up a play from there, but the puck has to go to someone standing in front for that to work.  someone.  if everyone is committed to possessing the puck behind the goal, you will literally never score a goal.

 

Tell that to Alex Steen:

 

 

And Datsyuk:

 

Edited November 8, 2013 by JackStraw

[ruxpin]

I am not attempting to make any independent point here, but just a couple open-ended questions:

 

Wouldn't you think that full-grown NHL players, with or without a tactician as coach, would have some idea where to be on the ice?  Aziz pointed out that all four forwards were below the goal line.  Wouldn't you think someone who made it to the NHL would know to go to the net?   I ask this seriously because it's not as if I have actually ever been to an NHL practice:  Does a head coach, tactician or otherwise, stand there in practice or in the meeting room and say, "okay, in X situation, the center goes HERE, the left wing goes over HERE, and the right wing goes THERE.   Make sure one of you dumb asses is in front of the net or you won't be able to score because Michael Leighton is no longer in the NHL."?

 

Secondly, at THIS point of the season and without a camp, what kind of effect would ANOTHER coaching change actually had?   Say you put Scotty Bowman himself in there, is this something a tactician would be able to fix on the fly or is this so incredibly screwed up that the season is a loss and start over next year?   I mean, if 20 players as a group have no idea on their own where to go given their position and whom to pass to, it seems to me that even a "tactician" might have a problem because what they actually need is an elementary school teacher.

[aziz]

Does a head coach, tactician or otherwise, stand there in practice or in the meeting room and say, "okay, in X situation, the center goes HERE, the left wing goes over HERE, and the right wing goes THERE.   Make sure one of you dumb asses is in front of the net or you won't be able to score because Michael Leighton is no longer in the NHL."?

 

well, yes.  that really is exactly what they do.  and they'll set it up in practice, throw a puck in the corner and have the forwards sprint in and set up as directed by the coach.  blow the whistle and do it again.  and again.  then add live dmen and do it again.  and again.  then add a goalie and keep doing it until the players are going to the spots the coach wants under those conditions, until it becomes habit.

 

i mean, outside of conditioning, that is what practice is for.  it isn't like an NHL team works on passing in the abstract in practice.  "today, we're going to work on heel-to-toe passing.  what you do is start with the puck near the heel of the blade, then push like this and snap your wrists like this and fling the puck to your target.  let's try it."  that doesn't happen.  what does happen is, "when the puck dumped into the corner and there are two defensemen back, i want F1 to press them hard, F2 to follow in 10-15 feet behind and board side, and F3 to curl into the slot just above the hashmarks.  strong side dman will hold the boards at the blue line, and weak side slide across to support his partner and F3.  hartnell, you're F1, giroux F2, voracek F3, go. ... ok, stop, giroux, stay higher, you're allowing their dman to cover you both, step back and stretch him out, let's try again, go...."  

 

different coaches have different ideas on how these things should be done, and they can be really specific.  the players need to know where they need to be and where to expect their linemates based on the situation.  laviolette's system pushed everyone into the boards, but as far as i can tell wasn't real specific on where to go from there, other than to press the play around to the weak side winger holding the boards at the hashmarks, relying on creativity by that player to make things happen.  worked when that guy was jagr, less so when it was hartnell, and not at all now that the entire team has stage fright.  last night, everyone had "boards" in their head and that's what they all did.  worked the puck around and around and did nothing else.  it needs to be someone's job to add dimension, part of the plan everyone understands that there will be options in open ice from specific directions.

 

 

rephrased:  imagine a football team trying to win games without a playbook.  just because a wide receiver is a wide receiver doesn't mean he knows where to go on any given play.  it has to be coordinated.  the QB and the WR have to be on the same page or there is no way a pass gets completed.  offensive linemen need to know where the running back is going to go so they can open a hole.  one defensive lineman needs to know direction the other defensive linemen are going so he can work to the same end, and the safety needs his head around all of it.  hockey is faster than football, players need to be able to anticipate where their support is, where the passing lanes will be, what their coverage is, and because all of that is dependent on what everyone else is doing, it needs to be coordinated at the coaching level.  if it isn't you have a mess.  as we see.

Edited November 8, 2013 by aziz

[King Knut]

Not sure how it does make sense at all considering its been the same over multiple coaches.

But to your point, Berube was supposed to be the solution.

Maybe he is, just not to any of this teams's problems.

nothing else makes sense.

[murraycraven]

Not sure how it does make sense at all considering its been the same over multiple coaches.

But to your point, Berube was supposed to be the solution.

Maybe he is, just not to any of this teams's problems.

 

 

 

Well played Sir, well played!

[ruxpin]

Thanks @aziz

[canoli]

yeah that was good stuff - and it makes it even easier to see that Berube, while strengthening the TEAM D concept and getting these guys to play better in the Flyers' zone has done nothing, no strategizing for the offense (incl the transition game and the PP). 

 

It's like he left it up to the skaters to decide how they want to attack the net. Maybe if Giroux or Read, Jake - any of the fwds - had come out early (first 5 games) and put up big points - if they'd gotten on a roll offensively....maybe Berube's laissez faire offense could've worked, at least resemble last year's success. But now so many guys have gone goal-less they've quit trying to see the ice and the game develop. They're concentrating on seeing the safe play...which is always up n down the boards.

 

There's nothing to build on offensively. Fear is all over that lineup and it's affecting the TEAM D. Defensive breakdowns are happening more and more as this mess continues and it's no surprise why...take a team that's petrified of making mistakes, won't attack the net because they're simply not seeing the lanes...and that fear is contagious, it spreads.

 

Maybe today...maybe they'll purge that fear and just play hockey...can't find a better to team to try it against - the Oilers are the worst defensive team out there.

[doom88]

Berube had to pick his battles, and is focusing net-out. Team defense has gotten better. As soon as he's comfortable, he will move on with all the other things wrong with the team, like the breakout, neutral zone play, and shot selection.

Too bad the Cup-winning head coach from outside the organization couldn't get the job done, or even maintain fundamentals.

[canoli]

That's what I'm hoping D - that he hasn't neglected the transition game and the offense so much as he just hasn't been able to focus on them yet. Defense first, right? That's what everybody's been asking for. Well here it is and I'd say the improvement is undeniable (in Team D). Even against good teams they're blocking shots, lanes are covered, sticks are 'active', etc...it's why the PK has been good. Once they're setup defending the net they look like a professional hockey team again.

 

Getting there and back on the attack, the transitions have been terrible...until today. Today the breakouts looked organized. The best part was they forechecked with a purpose = attacking the net. Guys without the puck moved the best I've seen them do all year. (when Jay Rosehill is working the slot w/out the puck...ha!)

 

Next? We find out how much was The Flyers Are Getting Better vs. The Oilers Can't Defend.