caught up to us tonight

[mojo1917]

Lol, you throw that out there like it's some kind of validation for playing Raffl. You're hanging your hat on a guy that has 1 assist in 15 games. That's not to say McGinn has set the world on fire, but your more impressed with a guy who has produced less because you "see" things in him. I've had turds more solid than that argument.

As i have said, i am not the coach  of the Flyers, though i do agree with his talent assement. 

All you have to do is watch them skate , Raffl has more talent, it is not close.

 

You seem to like metrics and box scores , so i provided Tye's AHL numbers for you. Those numbers help to make my point not yours.  so yes, I "threw that out there". 

 

So I say again, Raffl is not the reason McGinn is not on the NHL roster, that is on Tye. 

 

To say that Tye McGinn who will likely play 6 minutes a night on the 4th line , if he's called up , will help the Flyers scoring woes is wishful thinking at best. He is not the problem  he is not the answer to the problem. He is shuffling chairs on the deck of the ship taking on water.

Edited December 3, 2013 by mojo1917

[Bertmega]

@fanaticV3.0

 

No problem Paul Holmgren. 

[DaGreatGazoo]

The fact there are ongoing arguments over Raffl/McGinn show how flawed this team is.  Neither player is turning this team around. 

[Bertmega]

@murraycraven

 

"I have suggested dangling the schenn bothers as well"

 

Don't bother trying to inject logic into the conversation MC. Some here think that trading Laughton will net a high caliber winger to play with Giroux. Or just dump all our prospects for that matter to right the ship. I'd swear I was talking to Bobby F****** Clarke.

 

Not mentioning any names cough cough ....Fanatic....

[DaGreatGazoo]

Lol, you throw that out there like it's some kind of validation for playing Raffl. You're hanging your hat on a guy that has 1 assist in 15 games. That's not to say McGinn has set the world on fire, but your more impressed with a guy who has produced less because you "see" things in him. I've had turds more solid than that argument.

 

I'm REALLY not trying to pick a fight here, but what is your fascination with McGinn???  You've been screaming about him for 2 months.  I like the kid, he's got potential; he's not going to change the direction of this team at all, in anyway shape or form, and he's not exactly tearing up the AHL, which if he was, might warrant a call up.

 

Honestly, just asking the question.  How you respond is entirely up to you.  

Edited December 3, 2013 by DaGreatGazoo

[brelic]

This Team is not going to change it's fortune with one trade.   This is just a poorly constructed Team and the tuth of the matter is we are dealing from a weak position.

If that's the case, shouldn't we be staying away from trades? ESPECIALLY when we're talking about Homer making them!

[murraycraven]

@murraycraven

 

"I have suggested dangling the schenn bothers as well"

 

Don't bother trying to inject logic into the conversation MC. Some here think that trading Laughton will net a high caliber winger to play with Giroux. Or just dump all our prospects for that matter to right the ship. I'd swear I was talking to Bobby F****** Clarke.

 

Not mentioning any names cough cough ....Fanatic....

 

 

that is why I refuse to comment on such posts.  Nothing more than a TF83 in the making IMO... 

[murraycraven]

If that's the case, shouldn't we be staying away from trades? ESPECIALLY when we're talking about Homer making them!

 

I look at it as a wash Brel... simply b/c he will only screw up the draft!

[fanaticV3.0]

@murraycraven

 

"I have suggested dangling the schenn bothers as well"

 

Don't bother trying to inject logic into the conversation MC. Some here think that trading Laughton will net a high caliber winger to play with Giroux. Or just dump all our prospects for that matter to right the ship. I'd swear I was talking to Bobby F****** Clarke.

 

Not mentioning any names cough cough ....Fanatic....

 

Who said that?

 

Don't preach "logic" when your suggestions have been to trade their 2nd and 3rd leading scorers, one of which already has a NMC. It makes you look both stupid and ill-informed on our players' contract situations.

Edited December 3, 2013 by hf101
removed content

[fanaticV3.0]

I'm REALLY not trying to pick a fight here, but what is your fascination with McGinn???  You've been screaming about him for 2 months.  I like the kid, he's got potential; he's not going to change the direction of this team at all, in anyway shape or form, and he's not exactly tearing up the AHL, which if he was, might warrant a call up.

 

Honestly, just asking the question.  How you respond is entirely up to you.  

 

It's not a fascination. He has brought more to the table in the little bit of time he's been given than Raffl (or just about anyone on the fourth line to be honest) has. Hall is out of the conversation because he plays center and McGinn isn't going to play center. He's clearly better at finding the net than anyone on the fourth line. He's also not afraid to throw his weight around. Given the team has had trouble scoring this year, they got pushed around at times last night, and the fourth line is pretty much wasted space right now, I'd hardly call suggesting the kid get the chance a "fascination". It's just common sense.

[fanaticV3.0]

As i have said, i am not the coach  of the Flyers, though i do agree with his talent assement. 

All you have to do is watch them skate , Raffl has more talent, it is not close.

 

You seem to like metrics and box scores , so i provided Tye's AHL numbers for you. Those numbers help to make my point not yours.  so yes, I "threw that out there". 

 

So I say again, Raffl is not the reason McGinn is not on the NHL roster, that is on Tye. 

 

To say that Tye McGinn who will likely play 6 minutes a night on the 4th line , if he's called up , will help the Flyers scoring woes is wishful thinking at best. He is not the problem  he is not the answer to the problem. He is shuffling chairs on the deck of the ship taking on water.

 

Talent doesn't mean dick when you don't produce.

 

McGinn will not be competing for team leader in points, but he's scored more in the league than Raffl has. By default he adds more offense than Raffl. That's not even debatable.

Edited December 3, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[DaGreatGazoo]

It's not a fascination. He has brought more to the table in the little bit of time he's been given than Raffl (or just about anyone on the fourth line to be honest) has. Hall is out of the conversation because he plays center and McGinn isn't going to play center. He's clearly better at finding the net than anyone on the fourth line. He's also not afraid to throw his weight around. Given the team has had trouble scoring this year, they got pushed around at times last night, and the fourth line is pretty much wasted space right now, I'd hardly call suggesting the kid get the chance a "fascination". It's just common sense.

 

Fair explaination, and well put.  As I put in my other post in this thread, why do you think he's not getting recalled.  

 

He's not putting up a ton of points in the AHL right now, but it has to be more than that.  I have no clue what it could be though.

[DaGreatGazoo]

Talent doesn't mean dick when you don't produce.

 

Ladies and gentleman, the 2013-2014 Philadelphia Flyers updated marketing slogan!!!!

[mojo1917]

Talent doesn't mean dick when you don't produce.

 

hard to argue that point.

[fanaticV3.0]

Fair explaination, and well put.  As I put in my other post in this thread, why do you think he's not getting recalled.  

 

He's not putting up a ton of points in the AHL right now, but it has to be more than that.  I have no clue what it could be though.

 

I have no idea why they don't want anything to do with him, but it seems pretty obvious they have their reasons. Whether they are valid or not, I do not know.

 

You're right, he's not, but I'd take 25-30 points (which is roughly what he projects to) from a guy who hits and isn't afraid to fight. Raffl literally brings none of those things to the table.

[mojo1917]

@fanaticV3.0

 

I still fail to see where Raffl's presence on the roster prohibits McGinn.

They don't bring the same thing to the table because they are different players, you want to see Tye McGinn get some minutes , replace Rosehill or Newberry.

 

Raffl was nearly a point per game (.93) in the Allsvenkan, not the Elitestern , but still a competitive professional league, very similar to the AHL.

Tye McGinn best season in any professional league has him as a .56 pt per game player. So based upon past performance i would surmise that the point per game player may revert to form and i'll see some benefit , if the half point per game player plays over his head by twice the production the benefit is the same as the point per game player. Whom would you think has the better chance to help my team ? the guy who has done it before and is adjusting to North America or the guy that's never done it as a pro ?

 

McGinn plays the Simmonds , Hartnell game.  Raffl plays ... something else, not a power forward, more of a Matt Read type game. Perhaps Petr Straka or Jason Ackeson are more deserving of a shot than Raffl given the type of players they are . 

 

i don't view McGinn and Raffl as similar and interchangeable .  the last thing we need is another cement footed guy on the roster. 

 this is where we disagree, i will never say gosh , you're right send Raffl down let Tye have a shot.

the players are not interchangeable, because they play different games.

[Bertmega]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Let me slow it down for you a bit. When..... You..... Are..... In.... A.... Situation.... Of..... Need..... You.... Must... Sacrifice..... A.... Commodity..... to.... get.... one.... In.... Return.... 

 

This is what I suggested when I said trade Schenn or VLC to get a decent winger for Giroux's line. And furthermore, a NMC does not mean the contract cannot be traded if the said name player would like a change of scenery too.

Edited December 3, 2013 by hf101
removed content

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Let me slow it down for you a bit. When..... You..... Are..... In.... A.... Situation.... Of..... Need..... You.... Must... Sacrifice..... A.... Commodity..... to.... get.... one.... In.... Return.... 

 

This is what I suggested when I said trade Schenn or VLC to get a decent winger for Giroux's line. And furthermore, a NMC does not mean the contract cannot be traded if the said name player would like a change of scenery too.

 

 

 

So I take it referring to me as Clarke and Holmgren was a compliment then?

 

Don't act so surprised (or offended). I'm no Vegas odds maker, but when your big suggestion for improving the team is to trade the team's 2nd and 3rd leading scorer the odds are really good somebody is bound to point out how stupid those ideas are. Schenn has struggled a bit lately, but he's showing signs of growth. He's one of the kids anointed as the "next generation" after we traded away the previous ones. Trading him in the year he's starting to evolve is just dumb. And desperately clinging to this idea VLC is going to approve a trade 22 games into his career here is even dumber. I've had farts linger longer than that. It's nowhere near long enough to say, "That's enough, I'm ready to move on." It's moronic to suggest moving a guy like that.

Edited December 3, 2013 by hf101
removed content

[Bertmega]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Are we really going to do this back-and-forth stuff. Re-read my morning posts on this thread. Nowhere do I say I hate Schenn or VLC. I was stating that if a trade for a quality winger was to be made, Schenn would probably have to be a part of that said name package. That is it. Nothing more. Nothing less. In a perfect world Voracek would wake up and produce, Hartnell would look like 2011-12 Hartnell, etc, etc. However, that is not a reality for the Flyers. Homer is panic prone, he will make a trade trust me on that. And please, stop with the 2-3 top scorers on the team crap. They are 118th and 132nd respectively for points scored in the league.

 

Calling you Clarke is not an insult btw, it is more of a mind frame when you suggested trading Laughton. 

 

Lastly, soft no, but concerned with the low brow direction this thread could go? Yes.

 

Leave it at that.

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

I still fail to see where Raffl's presence on the roster prohibits McGinn.

They don't bring the same thing to the table because they are different players, you want to see Tye McGinn get some minutes , replace Rosehill or Newberry.

 

Raffl was nearly a point per game (.93) in the Allsvenkan, not the Elitestern , but still a competitive professional league, very similar to the AHL.

Tye McGinn best season in any professional league has him as a .56 pt per game player. So based upon past performance i would surmise that the point per game player may revert to form and i'll see some benefit , if the half point per game player plays over his head by twice the production the benefit is the same as the point per game player. Whom would you think has the better chance to help my team ? the guy who has done it before and is adjusting to North America or the guy that's never done it as a pro ?

 

McGinn plays the Simmonds , Hartnell game.  Raffl plays ... something else, not a power forward, more of a Matt Read type game. Perhaps Petr Straka or Jason Ackeson are more deserving of a shot than Raffl given the type of players they are . 

 

i don't view McGinn and Raffl as similar and interchangeable .  the last thing we need is another cement footed guy on the roster. 

 this is where we disagree, i will never say gosh , you're right send Raffl down let Tye have a shot.

the players are not interchangeable, because they play different games.

 

This is sad on so many levels. For starters, I can't believe I've wasted this much time of my life discussing this guy who won't even be in the league a year from now. But now we've been reduced to comparing point production from two leagues, neither of which are the NHL, as the deciding factor for who is more deserving of a roster spot.

 

You want to talk about numbers? Ok, let's talk about numbers. How about these?

 

15GP 0G, 1A, .07 ppg, -4

 

18GP, 3G, 2A, .28ppg, 0

6GP, 3G, 0A, .50ppg, +1

 

Those are Raffl and McGinn's numbers for the NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE. So, while you're busy bragging about what Raffl has done in some Euro league, and could do in the NHL based on that, I'm going to look at what they've both already done in the bigs.

 

Now if you'll excuse me I'm going to go poke me eyes out, because that would be a more valuable use of my time than this conversation.

[fanaticV3.0]

@fanaticV3.0

 

Are we really going to do this back-and-forth stuff. Re-read my morning posts on this thread. Nowhere do I say I hate Schenn or VLC. I was stating that if a trade for a quality winger was to be made, Schenn would probably have to be a part of that said name package. That is it. Nothing more. Nothing less. In a perfect world Voracek would wake up and produce, Hartnell would look like 2011-12 Hartnell, etc, etc. However, that is not a reality for the Flyers. Homer is panic prone, he will make a trade trust me on that. And please, stop with the 2-3 top scorers on the team crap. They are 118th and 132nd respectively for points scored in the league.

 

Calling you Clarke is not an insult btw, it is more of a mind frame when you suggested trading Laughton. 

 

Lastly, soft no, but concerned with the low brow direction this thread could go? Yes.

 

Leave it at that.

 

Nope. Both you and I have proven enough times now how bad an idea your statement was. I don't think anymore proof is necessary.

Edited December 3, 2013 by fanaticV3.0

[hf101]

Let's keep the personal comments to other members out of the discussion when there is disagreement.

[ruxpin]

I personally am not seeing what some others are with Raffl.  It's been pointed out that he did well in Europe, but I remember a European who was the best player in the world that wasn't in the NHL.  And then he wasn't in the NHL again.

 

McGinn had two consecutive seasons in the Q where he was better than a PPG player (1.24 and 1.52).  Now, it was the Q and he hasn't done terrific on the Phantoms, but  one thing I do know is Raffl has 1 POINT in 15 games and McGinn has 3 GOALS in 6 games, both with roughly the same ATOI. (12:40 McGinn to 12:23 Raffl).   

 

I know we're not supposed to look at actual stats for such a small sampling for both but clearly 3G/6 is better than 1P/15  no matter how you slice it and no matter if you use real math or whatever crap they're currently teaching in American public schools.  And  that's in the actual league the Flyers play in (the NHL) and not Europe or the Q or the AHL or the Urban League or any other irrelevant place.

 

People are welcome to "see something [they] like" in Raffl.   I'm not sure I understand what that is, though.  He skates pretty?   Is it defense?  McGinn was a +1 and Raffl is a -4.  And neither is arguably playing against "better talent" as both spent time on the top line and both on the 4th line.

 

Raffl is killing some penalties?  Is this what makes him better?   I'll actually accept that premise.  But then again, Rinaldo has killed a couple, too, so apparently they'll let the popcorn guy do that.

 

Clearly, for whatever reason, the Flyers seem to agree with the liking Raffl and not liking McGinn.  Whatever the reason, it has NOT shown itself on the ice during a game.  Not in results, anyway, because the numbers simply don't show it.

 

And let's not exaggerate the idea that TWO coaches have ditched McGinn.  Berube was and is arguably a common thread in both instances.  I have no problem with a theory that Berube didn't like McGinn when Lavy was still here and effected his playing time and his longevity on the big club.  I'm fine if Berube doesn't like him.  I'm sure it's not about color swatches or choice off a menu somewhere.  I'm sure it's something we're not seeing in practice or something reflecting work ethic away from the play that the camera doesn't show (again, though, whatever this is is NOT reflected in results).

 

Of the two, I personally would rather see McGinn based solely on actual results and because typically I know when McGinn is on the ice.  I like his edge.  I like his presence and what he brings.  I rarely even notice Raffl and quickly forget afterward.  Also would prefer McGinn because Raffl--I don't care if he's getting used to the North American game or Chinese Checkers--doesn't seem like he could hit the net if he stood inside it. 

 

The thing that kind of cracks me up, though, is the back and forth about two utterly forgettable players that will never amount to anything more than Patrick Brent Thoresen Fedyk if they're extremely lucky.  Neither one is going to help this team now or in the future in any appreciable way.

[SwedeFly]

Something is wrong with the Flyers when a 'Raffl' Vs. 'McGinn' thread is about to go 20 pages....

[murraycraven]

Kuato likes McGinn ... Kuato no like Raffle...