Trades

[Jam1986]

I know another thread on trades! My question is every other GM knows the Flyers are looking to trade won't that mean they'll try to screw us more than help us? Who stays is my question? Mason and a couple others! I'am at the point all are up for grabs.

[aziz]

My question is every other GM knows the Flyers are looking to trade won't that mean they'll try to screw us more than help us?

 

how is that different that any other situation?  you think GM's around the league are looking to help the blackhawks out with a couple soft deals?

 

value is value, and moves made happen based on the value of the assets moving.  unless you have a situation where a given player HAS to be moved (has demanded a trade or is an expiring FA), a team's position in the standings or otherwise doesn't change that.

[doom88]

For all of those that want this team blown up (again), I never want to read you post about team chemistry or managerial impatience again. You are ironically part of that win-now Snider culture that doesn't need to change.

Also, if this post applies to you, you'll NEVER survive a true rebuild through the draft. It is no guarantee: see JVR, the Islanders, or the Oilers.

[radoran]

It is no guarantee: see JVR, the Islanders, or the Oilers.

 

JVR? You mean the 26 points in 32 games this season JVR? You mean the 14 goals in 32 games JVR? You mean the JVR who had 18 goals in 48 games last season? 

 

Yep. No guarantees.

 

You can talk about "patience" all you want - but just leave JVR out of it.

[Jam1986]

I know a dumb question but would you all watch and wait on a rebuilding Flyers team? We need more speed,size and guys with heart

[radoran]

I know a dumb question but would you all watch and wait on a rebuilding Flyers team? We need more speed,size and guys with heart

 

We are watching a rebuilding Flyers team.

 

The team made the decision to gut the roster that went to the Cup Final and go with a set of young, unproven potential. Then they lost the 35+ player they were building that youth movement around.

 

Four players remain from the Cup Final team of 2010.

 

If that's not a "rebuilding" situation, I'm not sure what is.

 

By way of contrasting example, the Pens have eight players from their last Cup and they also currently have the most points in the Conference.

[murraycraven]

Well Merry F'ing Xmas!  THANK YOU RAD!   Your post is the best prose I have read on this site in some time...  What we are seeing is Homer's idea of rebuilding.   The roster is gutted and there is absolutely no consistency within the locker room.   This team is a mish-mash of players that somehow all ended up together.  

 

Trades are not going to fix this Team completely.   The biggest decision IMO is what you are going to do w/ the young kids.  Do the Flyers brass have the patience to let this Team grow together?   Better yet do the fans have the patience?  Do they really think that Schenn and Cooter can be part of the nucleus to build around. 

 

If it were my money I would look to shed some salary at the deadline and then focus on the draft.  

[mojo1917]

For all of those that want this team blown up (again), I never want to read you post about team chemistry or managerial impatience again. You are ironically part of that win-now Snider culture that doesn't need to change.

Also, if this post applies to you, you'll NEVER survive a true rebuild through the draft. It is no guarantee: see JVR, the Islanders, or the Oilers.

I see this and I think "i am not in that crowd...." however i also do not see where the team has the room to "get better" IMO this team , today,  lacks speed and finishing ability on the wing.  

 

I think Couturier Schenn and Laughton have our future looking bright down the middle.   I really think Schenn needs to play center, he's more comfortable there and is more noticeable in the good way ,  I think as @radoran and @aziz have floated to maybe move Giroux back to wing so he can shoot more.  I like Scott Hartnell, I think he's a good guy but unless his production picks up i'm going to feel like he needs to go, regardless of his intangibles.  Simmonds i like what he brings wish his hands were a little better, Raffl who knows ?  What will happen with the defense ? Timmonen is set to retire, Mezaros seems a shell of himself, Striet is having a tough go so far, Coburn and Grossmann are solid, i don't feel like giving up on Luke Schenn yet, but that is an area of concern and transition over the next season.   Does Mark Alt make any impact, Matt Konan ?  tough to tell.

 

As it is constructed today i don't know if I see a championship squad in its embryonic stages,  and i'm not sure i trust Al Jones-Snider to allow for the right moves to be made either, i don't trust him to let the forwards develop, i don't trust him not to sign 32 year old former great player X,  It is hard to feel optimistic, like in the Richards, Carter era.

[JackStraw]

For all of those that want this team blown up (again), I never want to read you post about team chemistry or managerial impatience again. You are ironically part of that win-now Snider culture that doesn't need to change.

 

Possibly the best post, ever.

[JackStraw]

You mean the 14 goals in 32 games JVR?

 

You do realize that works out to about 35 goals over an 82 game season? You think anyone on the Flyers will hit 35 this year? (Other than Raffl of course)

[radoran]

You do realize that works out to about 35 goals over an 82 game season? You think anyone on the Flyers will hit 35 this year? (Other than Raffl of course)

 

yes, and that was the point.

 

The implication of including "JVR" with "the Islanders and the Oilers" is that all of them have been disappointments despite their high draft status. Or at least that was my inferred takeaway.

 

JVR is anything but a "disappointing second overall pick."

 

The only thing "disappointing" about JVR is that the Flyers traded him.

 

Along with 18 in 48 ("on pace" for 30) if JVR stays "on pace" he would have the equivalent of back to back 30 goal seasons.

 

For a team that has openly slavered over a 30-goal scorer from New Jersey that they didn't draft, they appear to have traded away the 30-goal scorer from New Jersey that they did.

[murraycraven]

JVR would look really nice on G's line right about now...  ugh.

[JackStraw]

@radoran - my apologies. I mis-interpreted your point. My bad!

[flyercanuck]

yes, and that was the point.

 

The implication of including "JVR" with "the Islanders and the Oilers" is that all of them have been disappointments despite their high draft status. Or at least that was my inferred takeaway.

 

JVR is anything but a "disappointing second overall pick."

 

The only thing "disappointing" about JVR is that the Flyers traded him.

 

Along with 18 in 48 ("on pace" for 30) if JVR stays "on pace" he would have the equivalent of back to back 30 goal seasons.

 

For a team that has openly slavered over a 30-goal scorer from New Jersey that they didn't draft, they appear to have traded away the 30-goal scorer from New Jersey that they did.

 

 

But hey, at least we got another over 35 year old defenceman on a longterm contract and replaced our bought out player with another guy who was bought out. Both of them should really help us out 4 years from now when our young guys are hitting their game. But it will help us be mediocre now, and keep us mediocre then. 

[Mad Dog]

The only thing "disappointing" about JVR is that the Flyers traded him.

 

 

I think the only bigger disappointment is *who* the Flyers traded JVR for.

[icehole]

If you consider this team a rebuild, fot's fine but it doesn't mean we have to stick with this particular rebuild and keep doing the same thing over and over.  Homer tried to rebuild and he failed with this group.  Either you can trust him on his judgment and let this team gel, trust him to build a better team, or do what I want and hire a management team that will do things differently.  There's not one person on this team that's untouchable...not one.

re watching a rebuilding Flyers team.

 

The team made the decision to gut the roster that went to the Cup Final and go with a set of young, unproven potential. Then they lost the 35+ player they were building that youth movement around.

 

Four players remain from the Cup Final team of 2010.

 

If that's not a "rebuilding" situation, I'm not sure what is.

 

By way of contrasting example, the Pens have eight players from their last Cup and they also currently have the most points in the Conference.

To say that a team has to be together for a few years to win might not be accurate.  After the Hawks won the cup, they lost like 11 or 13 players, almost missed the playoffs in 2011/2012, and won the cup again in 2013.  They were able to rebuild a year after the rebuild to win another cup.

[radoran]

 

If you consider this team a rebuild, fot's fine but it doesn't mean we have to stick with this particular rebuild and keep doing the same thing over and over.  Homer tried to rebuild and he failed with this group.  Either you can trust him on his judgment and let this team gel, trust him to build a better team, or do what I want and hire a management team that will do things differently.  There's not one person on this team that's untouchable...not one.

re watching a rebuilding Flyers team.

 

The team made the decision to gut the roster that went to the Cup Final and go with a set of young, unproven potential. Then they lost the 35+ player they were building that youth movement around.

 

Four players remain from the Cup Final team of 2010.

 

If that's not a "rebuilding" situation, I'm not sure what is.

 

By way of contrasting example, the Pens have eight players from their last Cup and they also currently have the most points in the Conference.

 

To say that a team has to be together for a few years to win might not be accurate.  After the Hawks won the cup, they lost like 11 or 13 players, almost missed the playoffs in 2011/2012, and won the cup again in 2013.  They were able to rebuild a year after the rebuild to win another cup.

 

Chicago had eight players from the playoff roster in 2010 on their playoff roster last year, including five of their top six playoff point producers from 2010 and their top six from 2013 were all carryovers from 2010.

 

Kane, Sharp, Toews, Keith and Seabrook (at least) have been on the team since at least 2007-2008 - the fifth consecutive season the team missed the playoffs before Conference Finals, Cup winner, first round, first round, Cup winner.

 

That's a much different "rebuild" than gutting virtually the entire roster, don't you think?

 

Finally, if you are of the opinion that I think Homer should be left in charge here, you have not read any post I have made for the past two seasons.

[fanaticV3.0]

I see this and I think "i am not in that crowd...." however i also do not see where the team has the room to "get better" IMO this team , today,  lacks speed and finishing ability on the wing.  

 

I think Couturier Schenn and Laughton have our future looking bright down the middle.   I really think Schenn needs to play center, he's more comfortable there and is more noticeable in the good way ,  I think as @radoran and @aziz have floated to maybe move Giroux back to wing so he can shoot more.  I like Scott Hartnell, I think he's a good guy but unless his production picks up i'm going to feel like he needs to go, regardless of his intangibles.  Simmonds i like what he brings wish his hands were a little better, Raffl who knows ?  What will happen with the defense ? Timmonen is set to retire, Mezaros seems a shell of himself, Striet is having a tough go so far, Coburn and Grossmann are solid, i don't feel like giving up on Luke Schenn yet, but that is an area of concern and transition over the next season.   Does Mark Alt make any impact, Matt Konan ?  tough to tell.

 

As it is constructed today i don't know if I see a championship squad in its embryonic stages,  and i'm not sure i trust Al Jones-Snider to allow for the right moves to be made either, i don't trust him to let the forwards develop, i don't trust him not to sign 32 year old former great player X,  It is hard to feel optimistic, like in the Richards, Carter era.

 

I was going to ask what you had planned for Giroux, but saw you addressed it. Giroux isn't much of a shooter though, so I'm not sure wing suits him. He's a pass first kind of guy.

 

I don't agree. Aside from Richards and Carter themselves, those teams were loaded with a bunch of players who we all overrated or never hit potential. This core is a little broader imo. I'll take Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds, and Mason over (pretty much) just Richards and Carter.

[icehole]

Chicago 

Chicago had eight players from the playoff roster in 2010 on their playoff roster last year, including five of their top six playoff point producers from 2010 and their top six from 2013 were all carryovers from 2010.

 

Kane, Sharp, Toews, Keith and Seabrook (at least) have been on the team since at least 2007-2008 - the fifth consecutive season the team missed the playoffs before Conference Finals, Cup winner, first round, first round, Cup winner.

 

That's a much different "rebuild" than gutting virtually the entire roster, don't you think?

 

Finally, if you are of the opinion that I think Homer should be left in charge here, you have not read any post I have made for the past two seasons.

Chicago did keep 8 players but they did let a lot of key players walk including their goaltender.  I guess it doesn't matter who you plug in as long as you have a core with a winning culture and a system that works.  I'm willing to rebuild to find that core because it doesn't exist in Philadelphia.

If you don't endorse Homer, why would you want to keep the players he placed on this team?

Like I said, nobody is untouchable.  I wouldnt be calling all the GMs and begging them to take Giroux but I'd be listening to anyone who is interested.  Giroux isnt the leader to build my team around.

[radoran]

I was going to ask what you had planned for Giroux, but saw you addressed it. Giroux isn't much of a shooter though, so I'm not sure wing suits him. He's a pass first kind of guy.

 

I don't agree. Aside from Richards and Carter themselves, those teams were loaded with a bunch of players who we all overrated or never hit potential. This core is a little broader imo. I'll take Giroux, Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds, and Mason over (pretty much) just Richards and Carter.

 

"That team" got to the Stanley Cup Final. Giroux had 16 goals and 47 points and 21 points in 23 playoff games from the right wing that season. He followed that up with a 25 goal/76 point season to lead the team and also led the team with 12 points in 11 playoff games - with Crater, Richards and Briere ahead of him in the "center" depth chart (he was one of six "centers" on a team with a grand total of two "right wings" (Versteeg, Nodl) on the playoff roster).

 

Also, of course, you could have had Giroux, Crater, Richards... and Mason...

[radoran]

 

Chicago 

Chicago did keep 8 players but they did let a lot of key players walk including their goaltender.  I guess it doesn't matter who you plug in as long as you have a core with a winning culture and a system that works.  I'm willing to rebuild to find that core because it doesn't exist in Philadelphia.

If you don't endorse Homer, why would you want to keep the players he placed on this team?

Like I said, nobody is untouchable.  I wouldnt be calling all the GMs and begging them to take Giroux but I'd be listening to anyone who is interested.  Giroux isnt the leader to build my team around.

 

 

To coin a phrase: show me where I said that.

 

Nobody is "untouchable" and everyone should be on the hot seat at the moment.

 

My only point is while you are advocating "starting" a rebuild, the "rebuild" has already been going on.

 

Homer's apparently just not very good at it.

 

FWIW, Chicago did "let their goaltender" walk - and they replaced him with... one of their own (second round) draft picks, who then won the Cup last season. They also kept the leadership core and the scoring core of the team together - the same core that's been there since 2007-2008.

The Flyers didn't have a second rounder that year (2003). They traded that pick (Maxim Lapierre) for Eric Chouinard for reasons which remain strange and mysterious to me.

 

They drafted Colin Fraser in that third round. Then they traded Fraser for Vladimir Malakhov - part of that magical, mythical run to the Conference Final for the Flyers.

 

Meanwhile, Fraser won a Cup with the Blackhawks in 2010 and then another with the Kings.

[fanaticV3.0]

"That team" got to the Stanley Cup Final. Giroux had 16 goals and 47 points and 21 points in 23 playoff games from the right wing that season. He followed that up with a 25 goal/76 point season to lead the team and also led the team with 12 points in 11 playoff games - with Crater, Richards and Briere ahead of him in the "center" depth chart (he was one of six "centers" on a team with a grand total of two "right wings" (Versteeg, Nodl) on the playoff roster).

 

Also, of course, you could have had Giroux, Crater, Richards... and Mason...

 

That team was a .500 team, didn't make the POs until the last day of the season, and had a virtually unprecedented comeback during that run. They also caught lightning in a bottle with a nobody in net. I think it's safe to say what we had there is referred to as a fluke. Other than winning the cup, everything went right for them. It was fun while it was happening, but it was a lot of luck. It's time to get over Richards and Carter. They're gone and not coming back.

[icehole]

To coin a phrase: show me where I said that.

 

Nobody is "untouchable" and everyone should be on the hot seat at the moment.

 

My only point is while you are advocating "starting" a rebuild, the "rebuild" has already been going on.

 

Homer's apparently just not very good at it.

 

FWIW, Chicago did "let their goaltender" walk - and they replaced him with... one of their own (second round) draft picks, who then won the Cup last season. They also kept the leadership core and the scoring core of the team together - the same core that's been there since 2007-2008.

The Flyers didn't have a second rounder that year (2003). They traded that pick (Maxim Lapierre) for Eric Chouinard for reasons which remain strange and mysterious to me.

 

They drafted Colin Fraser in that third round. Then they traded Fraser for Vladimir Malakhov - part of that magical, mythical run to the Conference Final for the Flyers.

 

Meanwhile, Fraser won a Cup with the Blackhawks in 2010 and then another with the Kings.

I agree that they did somewhat of a rebuild but I don't like it and it hasn't worked.  Thats why I want another rebuild and want someone else to try.

[radoran]

That team was a .500 team, didn't make the POs until the last day of the season, and had a virtually unprecedented comeback during that run. They also caught lightning in a bottle with a nobody in net. I think it's safe to say what we had there is referred to as a fluke. Other than winning the cup, everything went right for them. It was fun while it was happening, but it was a lot of luck. It's time to get over Richards and Carter. They're gone and not coming back.

Agreed the Cup Final run had "flukey" written all over it.

That said, I am so far over Crater and Richards you can't even see them from where I am. On the day of the trades I said they got younger, cheaper and potentially better in the long term but in the short term this was a decision to take several steps back. And it was.

This is nothing to do with Crater and Richards specifically or "wanting them back" or any of the other nonsense you might try to assert to avoid the obvious fact that the team gutted itself when they traded them and haven't found a way to get the intestinal fortitude back since.

I like Schenn, Couturier and Simmonds - I even like Voracek. But again the obvious facts are that Crater and Richards have been to back-to-back Conference Finals (and won a Cup) while the Flyers lost 4-1 in the second round and then missed the playoffs entirely. The Kings are one of the elite in the West and the Flyers are a middling team in a stinky division that isn't in a playoff position.

I guess I should be happy that at least you didn't even try to back up your ridiculous assertion that Giroux's not suited for wing, since he only led the team in points from the wing.

[mojo1917]

That team was a .500 team, didn't make the POs until the last day of the season, and had a virtually unprecedented comeback during that run. They also caught lightning in a bottle with a nobody in net. I think it's safe to say what we had there is referred to as a fluke. Other than winning the cup, everything went right for them. It was fun while it was happening, but it was a lot of luck. It's time to get over Richards and Carter. They're gone and not coming back.

That "core" had been to an Eastern Conference championship series, was eliminated by eventual cup champion Pittsburgh, and then lost in the cup finals.  Not exactly "lightning in a bottle".

Also i'm not sure anyone is pining for the "good old days"  (and by the way here's a tip about the good old days  just in general, they weren't) though when I brought it up , i was not using the 20/20 lens of hind sight, more remembering how i felt after the group of lupul, richards, carter, umberger, briere, pre face smash coburn et al. played the Penguins tough in the ECF , that group had me feeling pretty positive about the future . Unlike now where the current group has me feeling like more pieces are needed.