Penguins Fans Named Best in the NHL

[nossagog]

@ruxpin

 

 Go on HF boards - there's plenty of douchebag Pens fans on there (as well as every other team). We're lucky to have 3 great Pens fans on here. I know we take potshots at each other, but they're pretty good guys for being the enemy.

I go there to read but will never post any opinions whatsoever there.  There are so many people, no matter what you say, you are simple a moron to someone.  Its just not worth the effort.

[Polaris922]

I actually came here to talk hockey. I avoid all Pens forums because I don't 1,000 similar points of view, I'd rather discuss and/or dispute things with different perspectives. With @B21 and @nossagog here, I see Pens fans that are also hockey fans. And lots of other teams' fans (Flyers, Red Winfs, etc...) that analyze their sport and their teams critically, and with thought more than emotion.

[mojo1917]

I haven't alot in the last 1-2 years since B21, Jr. came along.  My experience has really been that if it is primarily a Pens forum - no. Not much discussion on how big a fan one is and not a lot of "kool-aid" mudslinging.  The "best fans" arguements usually happen in forums like this where you have at least a handful of fans from most of the teams.

 

 

I think the chip in this case comes from 40 years of trying to win another Cup while the little brother across the state has 3....all of which were aided by the luck of the draft and, in Lemieux's case, tanking.  The die hard Flyers-only fan can legitimately question that though it's going on almost 30 years now since that draft.  But....the casual all-Philly sports fan?  The 2013-14 Sixers say 'hi'.  That same rationale applies when our attendance comes up as a topic.  When the Philly teams are bad, the attendance reflects that, too.  The thing about the Flyers is they haven't really been that bad in 40 years.

 

I think the booing Santa/puking kid/Michael Irvin thing is a whole other "chip".  You see it all the time on Philly.com...anytime there is a similar incident elsewhere there is a thread about how these kinds of things happen everywhere.  The problem there is that they have all happened in Philly.  I think the reputation is deserved and earned but I do think it means lesser incidents are likely to be overblown and get more media coverage (the kid who ran on the field and was tasered at a Phils game comes to mind).

 

 

Not knocking the fact he posted it - it's a legit discussion topic.  Pointing out that it was started by a Flyers fas was done to reinforce it wasn't Pens fans thumping their chests.  Don't get me wrong - if someone brings up the "state" of our fan base we'll certainly defend it.  But we've never started anything.

Really just want to address the Sixers portion of this post and their tankapalooza season from hell.

There are two guys on the pre Danny Grainer roster that you could /would /want to build a team with. MCW and maybe ...maybe Thaddeus Young, whom I like, but has plateaued , is this because of his role on the team with the roster? Is he maxed out talent wise? Too many guys in the rotation with similar skill sets...yes to this. Dawes, Turner and Allen are not starters in the NBA on a great team. Dawes spent all of 8 minutes this season playing defense and Turner is just good, not your crunch time guy , he's an okay shooter, cannot really get his own shot, should be a better playmaker since he handles the ball so much...he's the JVR of #2 picks.

Their core was not good and "sticking it out with it" guarantees a thrashing every spring by Miami, Indiana, insert a different good team here and mid- range draft picks, in short prolonged mediocrity .

There are 2 guys at the top of this draft that a team can build around Parker and Wiggins, there is now cap money to make a play for a superstar or sign quality veteran players to "guide "the nucleus of P or W , Noel, MCW and young... In short they are sucking at the right time and have the foresight to realize it. If things work out the Sixers could be set up to be very good for a very long time.

I have seen sucking at the right time work before.

[fanaticV3.0]

Judging by this thread (started by a Flyers fan), my years in this forum and years on Philly.com, a good portion of your fan base seems to care...and that's without any provocation from the Pens fans here.  The next thread we start about our fan base would be the first.

 

Just sayin'.

 

Yeah, I'm sure no Penguins fan has ever uttered such a thing. It's not like you showed up on this thread to defend their "title" of best fans or anything.

Edited February 24, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[B21]

@mojo1917

 

I'm not knocking the strategy.  I just am pointing out that it's hypocritical for the fan of all Philly sports team to take any issues with the Pens success because they tanked to get Lemieux when the Sixers are doing the exact...same....thing.

[B21]

Yeah, I'm sure no Penguins fan has ever uttered such a thing. It's not like you showed up on this thread to defend their "title" of best fans or anything.

 

Not here in this forum - and that's what we are talking about.  If you can find where I defended the "title" feel free to share it.  Quite the opposite...I was critical of the report because it apparently leaves off Canadian teams and I gave the OP a hard time because the report doesn't "name" the Pens anything.

 

Of course - even with a report that simply ranks ratings %, et all - and nothing more - you can see the response from your fellow fans.

 

How's that chip again? 

[mojo1917]

@mojo1917

 

I'm not knocking the strategy.  I just am pointing out that it's hypocritical for the fan of all Philly sports team to take any issues with the Pens success because they tanked to get Lemieux when the Sixers are doing the exact...same....thing.

just so you know i'm off that tip, if i bring up Mario and tanking again please feel free to lower the boom,  ( though i'm not sure that's been a "thing" with me, i just hate your team , you know, as a general rule, so any mention of pre Mario suckage is just your basic" Penguins suck" emotion for me )   i'm not proud of it, but the Sixers needed to blow that mess up, and there are 2 guys with Durant/James upside available this year if Parker declares; but he "loves Duke" so there's no guarantee he comes out he may want to stay in school, plus another year of coach K working with him wouldn't hurt....

[B21]

just so you know i'm off that tip, if i bring up Mario and tanking again please feel free to lower the boom,  ( though i'm not sure that's been a "thing" with me, i just hate your team , you know, as a general rule, so any mention of pre Mario suckage is just your basic" Penguins suck" emotion for me )   i'm not proud of it, but the Sixers needed to blow that mess up, and there are 2 guys with Durant/James upside available this year if Parker declares; but he "loves Duke" so there's no guarantee he comes out he may want to stay in school, plus another year of coach K working with him wouldn't hurt....

 

Well Mario you can bring up.  They did tank to get him.    Fleury/Malkin/Crosby/Staal - different story.

 

That said - I have no problem when a team does what the Sixers are doing or what the Pens did to land Mario - though I wish they were not as obvious about it. There's no guarantee it works and in today's era of guaranteed contracts it's often the only way to completly rebuild a roster.

[radoran]

IMO, most people who like to pull out the "Pens tanked" argument do it because they like the immediate, knee-jerk defensive reaction of Pens fans.

 

I know I do

[B21]

IMO, most people who like to pull out the "Pens tanked" argument do it because they like the immediate, knee-jerk defensive reaction of Pens fans.

 

I know I do

 

Touche. 

 

Though not quite as "knee jerk" when you bring up classless Philly fans that booed Santa (and who have gone downhill ever since).

 

50+ posts from idiots not getting the sarcasm in 3...2...1...

[fanaticV3.0]

Not here in this forum - and that's what we are talking about.  If you can find where I defended the "title" feel free to share it.  Quite the opposite...I was critical of the report because it apparently leaves off Canadian teams and I gave the OP a hard time because the report doesn't "name" the Pens anything.

 

Of course - even with a report that simply ranks ratings %, et all - and nothing more - you can see the response from your fellow fans.

 

How's that chip again? 

 

There's 2 maybe 3 Pens fans on this board. Nice logic though.

 

I don't care about the report at all. I don't care if someone is upset by it, thinks it's a bragging point, or whatever.  I don't argue over things like "Who's dad is tougher" or "Which team has better fans". I'm not 10.

Edited February 24, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[B21]

There's 2 maybe 3 Pens fans on this board. Nice logic though.

 

 

To which I will add the "best fans" crown seems a lot more important to more Flyers fans than it does Pens fans.  I have nothing to back that up other than what I have seen in hockey forums, read in blogs and even in those 'comments' sections under articles on sites like CNNSI and TSN.ca...along with going to college in Philly and living there for 5 of the 8 years after that. 

 

 

I don't care about the report at all. I don't care if someone is upset by it, thinks it's a bragging point, or whatever.  I don't argue over things like "Who's dad is tougher" or "Which team has better fans". I'm not 10.

 

Good. We agree.  I think it'd infantile as well.

Edited February 24, 2014 by B21

[nossagog]

Well Mario you can bring up.  They did tank to get him.    Fleury/Malkin/Crosby/Staal - different story.

 

That said - I have no problem when a team does what the Sixers are doing or what the Pens did to land Mario - though I wish they were not as obvious about it. There's no guarantee it works and in today's era of guaranteed contracts it's often the only way to completly rebuild a roster.

 

I've defended the whole tank thing often, in both scenarios.  And I can actually speak from experience in both cases.   Now I'm not old as dirt, but I can honestly say that I was around in the days B.L.(Before Lemieux) to see the team play.  I had partial season tickets in section A10, five rows from the ice from the 1981 season through the 1984 season(bad timing on my part) and was at the arena for the draft day that they chose Mario Lemieux.(At the time, the tickets were like $12/game and we thought it was alot). So as a benchmark, please NEVER call me a bandwangon fan, I'll laugh loudly, HAHAHAHAHA.

 

Anyway, I was there to see those games, and I have always had this same question to people that say they tanked.  Define how they did that.   Did they tell the players not to score goals?  Did they tell the goalies to purposely let in goals?  Did they tell the players to not try?   Those kind of things just do not happen.  You would have heard about it from the players that they traded after they picked up Mario.   And anyway, players not trying directly affects their future earnings, so it can't have been something like that.

 

So did they bench/trade their star players(okay, I'm being quite liberal with the usage there with the state of the Pens at the time)?  Well no, Kehoe, Bullard, Carlyle, Young, Gardner et al were not benched or traded to make the team worse, so that can't be it. 

 

Actually the core of the team for the 83-84 season was about just the same as their last playoff appearance in the 81-82. The 82-83 season the Pens were last in the division(Wait, did the whole tank thing start a whole year BEFORE the 83-84 season?), and started a youth movement.   The '83 Pens had a very young team with a lot of promise,  some wily veterans, but just sucked.

 

So here' the question for the 'tank' people.  Without the blanket 'They tanked on purpose' statement, could you please let me know exactly how they did it.  See I was fooled being there and watching the games, it looked like they were actually trying. They were making moves that seemed on the surface to try to make the team better, so what was it?

 

The only think that I can come up with for you guys is Lou Angotti as coach, yes I said Lou Angotti.

[mojo1917]

@nossagog i saw the Pens play in the igloo in 80/ 81 and they were god awful...just terrible.  

My uncle was living downtown in some condos within walking distance of the civic arena and had "company" season tix. which he used for himself because -**** those guys...

He took me to see them play the Flyers , the Pens played not bad for their respective first couple of shifts and there were lots of "F-you Flyers" and fun fan stuff going on, lots of cursing...my uncle was like" pay attention now, because i'm going to show these ass*&les how to swear..." he was and is truly a master of profanity, combinations, points of emphasis, a true genius...but i digress, after 10 minutes the Flyers were up 2-0 and the fans turned on the Pens now it was" F-you Keough you, suck" for the remaining 2 periods, needless to say it was an interesting introduction to the Penguins and their fans... so I applaud you for sticking it out through that bullsh*t because those were some lean times for that team. 

[nossagog]

@nossagog i saw the Pens play in the igloo in 80/ 81 and they were god awful...just terrible.  

My uncle was living downtown in some condos within walking distance of the civic arena and had "company" season tix. which he used for himself because -**** those guys...

He took me to see them play the Flyers , the Pens played not bad for their respective first couple of shifts and there were lots of "F-you Flyers" and fun fan stuff going on, lots of cursing...my uncle was like" pay attention now, because i'm going to show these ass*&les how to swear..." he was and is truly a master of profanity, combinations, points of emphasis, a true genius...but i digress, after 10 minutes the Flyers were up 2-0 and the fans turned on the Pens now it was" F-you Keough you, suck" for the remaining 2 periods, needless to say it was an interesting introduction to the Penguins and their fans... so I applaud you for sticking it out through that bullsh*t because those were some lean times for that team. 

 

Ron Stackhouse was a favorite whipping boy back in the day. He actually wasn't 'that' bad a defenseman, but when he screwed up, he REALLY screwed up. The problem was that they could get a few quality players, not top tier players, and the rest were just junk. One injury and the team was toast.   It was the same thing for years.

 

One of the problems the Pens also had in those days was the success of the Pirates and Steelers. With world series and super bowl championships on the recent horizon, people just figured the Pens would be the same. But the financials of the day were not conducive to a small market team making it in the NHL. No spending limit for the large market teams, small population to draw. The were still building interest in hockey in the early 80's.

 

 

We were so bad they kept giving us Mick Magoo to officiate our games, now THAT's bad.

[B21]

Ratings down

According to Sports Business Journal, which combed through the midseason NHL television ratings from Nielsen, the Flyers are averaging just 56,000 households per telecast this season on Comcast SportsNet. That number is down from 100,000 at this time last year.

 

Chicago (159,000) and Boston (123,000) are the only two NHL franchises that average more than 100,000 households locally per telecast. The Rangers (93,000), Penguins (91,000) and Red Wings (63,000) round out the top five. Columbus averages a measly 6,000 households per telecast, worst in the league.

 

When compensating for market size, the Devils, Ducks, Panthers, Kings and Islanders garner the worst ratings share in the NHL even though Anaheim and Los Angeles have two of the best teams in hockey.

 

Read more at http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/flyers/20140225_Flyers_GM_doesn_t_see_big_trade_before_deadline.html#JQ1SAUFIwxyBdWf6.99

 

Uh oh!  First they stop watching - then they stop coming.

 

Edited February 25, 2014 by B21

[B21]

@nossagog

 

Actually, Carlyle was traded to Winnepeg during the season (and did not get much in return from what I have read).

 

Angotti himself said that they made a decision to go for Lemieux (sounds better than "tank") mid-season so it's not as if they went into the season with that plan.  But their own coach admitted it.

 

And I don't think they asked players to deliberately suck - they just brought up guys who sucked even when they made the effort.

[Polaris922]

@nossagog

 

Actually, Carlyle was traded to Winnepeg during the season (and did not get much in return from what I have read).

 

Angotti himself said that they made a decision to go for Lemieux (sounds better than "tank") mid-season so it's not as if they went into the season with that plan.  But their own coach admitted it.

 

And I don't think they asked players to deliberately suck - they just brought up guys who sucked even when they made the effort.

 

Angotti's interview regarding the "tanking" was as follows: 

"If Pittsburgh hadn't gotten Mario Lemieux that year, I think the franchise would've folded," Angotti said. The plan was hatched over a midseason lunch between him and E.J. Forget gold, they were going for the mold. "We didn't actually try to throw games. But, you know, we went in there with the understanding ... we weren't going to be upset if we lost." 

 

That's the closest anyone ever got to saying they tanked on purpose.  It's been twisted and turned, particularly in other threads here and elsewhere to sound a lot worse, but that is the direct quote.  If we're going to rehash this I refer you all to : 

 

http://www.hockeyforums.net/index.php/topic/47660-tanking-penguins/page-2

 

Rather than posting it all here again.  

[mojo1917]

Ron Stackhouse was a favorite whipping boy back in the day. He actually wasn't 'that' bad a defenseman, but when he screwed up, he REALLY screwed up. The problem was that they could get a few quality players, not top tier players, and the rest were just junk. One injury and the team was toast.   It was the same thing for years.

 

there was a guy they were calling "Spinners" I don't think that was Keough, anyway the Pens fans Loved and then hated that guy with in 5 minutes it was a little unsettling for my mom, she still calls that the third worst fan experience of her life.  the worst was a 10 parent brawl at one of my 10-12 travelling league baseball games, and then a 5 parent donnybrook at a high school game... good times, sigh !

 

so long stories short, the worst fans anywhere were usually at the games i was playing in...see why i'm a philly fan 

Edited February 25, 2014 by mojo1917

[nossagog]

there was a guy they were calling "Spinners" I don't think that was Keough, anyway the Pens fans Loved and then hated that guy with in 5 minutes it was a little unsettling for my mom, she still calls that the third worst fan experience of her life.  the worst was a 10 parent brawl at one of my 10-12 travelling league baseball games, and then a 5 parent donnybrook at a high school game... good times, sigh !

 

so long stories short, the worst fans anywhere were usually at the games i was playing in...see why i'm a philly fan 

Spinner Spencer, he was famous for 360 moves that never came to anything, and if they did it was a turnover going the other way.

[jammer2]

I've defended the whole tank thing often, in both scenarios.  And I can actually speak from experience in both cases.   Now I'm not old as dirt, but I can honestly say that I was around in the days B.L.(Before Lemieux) to see the team play.  I had partial season tickets in section A10, five rows from the ice from the 1981 season through the 1984 season(bad timing on my part) and was at the arena for the draft day that they chose Mario Lemieux.(At the time, the tickets were like $12/game and we thought it was alot). So as a benchmark, please NEVER call me a bandwangon fan, I'll laugh loudly, HAHAHAHAHA.

 

Anyway, I was there to see those games, and I have always had this same question to people that say they tanked.  Define how they did that.   Did they tell the players not to score goals?  Did they tell the goalies to purposely let in goals?  Did they tell the players to not try?   Those kind of things just do not happen.  You would have heard about it from the players that they traded after they picked up Mario.   And anyway, players not trying directly affects their future earnings, so it can't have been something like that.

 

So did they bench/trade their star players(okay, I'm being quite liberal with the usage there with the state of the Pens at the time)?  Well no, Kehoe, Bullard, Carlyle, Young, Gardner et al were not benched or traded to make the team worse, so that can't be it. 

 

Actually the core of the team for the 83-84 season was about just the same as their last playoff appearance in the 81-82. The 82-83 season the Pens were last in the division(Wait, did the whole tank thing start a whole year BEFORE the 83-84 season?), and started a youth movement.   The '83 Pens had a very young team with a lot of promise,  some wily veterans, but just sucked.

 

So here' the question for the 'tank' people.  Without the blanket 'They tanked on purpose' statement, could you please let me know exactly how they did it.  See I was fooled being there and watching the games, it looked like they were actually trying. They were making moves that seemed on the surface to try to make the team better, so what was it?

 

The only think that I can come up with for you guys is Lou Angotti as coach, yes I said Lou Angotti.

 

 I seem to recall the Devils and Penguins being tied on the final day of the season, the winner (or in this case, whoever lost their last game...or avoided winning) would claim the right to draft Mario...is any of this sounding familiar (and I'm not being sarcastic, actual question...lol). Anyways, something occured that day that was fishy, as I seem to recall. Maybe you or someone else can add more....that is my contribution, or what is left of that brain cell, which ever fits...lol.

[Polaris922]

@jammer2

 

I don't know what that could be because the Devils lost 8 consecutive games to end the season.  Unless the Penguins winning two games in a row before losing 6 counts as tampering.   LOL  

 

@B21 

 

As for trading Carlyle... he was injured that year and the Pens traded him for a Winnipeg Jets pick that ended up being Doug Bodger, and considerations that turned into Moe Mantha.  Their best goaltender?  Dennis Herron... with a stunning 38 games played, going 8-24-2 with an all-star 4.08 goals against average.  It went downhill from there.  If they were truly tanking, they'd have dumped Bullard (51 goals, 41 assists) for picks, which would have been very easy to do.  

[B21]

@jammer2

 

I don't know what that could be because the Devils lost 8 consecutive games to end the season.  Unless the Penguins winning two games in a row before losing 6 counts as tampering.   LOL  

 

@B21 

 

As for trading Carlyle... he was injured that year and the Pens traded him for a Winnipeg Jets pick that ended up being Doug Bodger, and considerations that turned into Moe Mantha.  Their best goaltender?  Dennis Herron... with a stunning 38 games played, going 8-24-2 with an all-star 4.08 goals against average.  It went downhill from there.  If they were truly tanking, they'd have dumped Bullard (51 goals, 41 assists) for picks, which would have been very easy to do.  

 

I'l let you duke this one out with the Flyers fans (I was 8 at the time...I remember watching games but everything else I know about that season is what I read).

 

Doesn't sound as if it is as bad as Flyers fans make it out to be.

 

And trading Bullard would have made it way way WAY to obvious.  It's clear they weren't trying to be "that" obvious about it.

 

Edit: Again, I have noooooooooooooooooo problem that they - or any other team in any sport - have done it.

Edited February 26, 2014 by B21

[jammer2]

@B21  That bastard Bullard gave me a goose-egg the size of a golf ball!!

[jammer2]

@B21  From the Wiki Penguins page....no actual specifics, but yeah, they tanked to get Mario, but this is not any new stuff....

 

 "

Decline and the arrival of Mario Lemieux (1983–1988)

The team had the league's worst record in both the 1983 and 1984 seasons, and with the team suffering financial problems, it again looked as though the Penguins would fold. Mario Lemieux, one of the most highly touted NHL draft picks in history, was due to be drafted in the 1984 NHL Entry Draft. Heading towards the end of the season ahead of the New Jersey Devils, who were placed last, the Penguins made a number of questionable moves that appeared to weaken the team in the short-term. The Penguins posted three six-game winless streaks in the last 21 games of the season and earned the right to draft Lemieux amidst protests from Devils management.^[8] Pittsburgh coach Lou Angotti later admitted that a conscious decision was made to finish the season as the team with the worst record, stating in an interview with the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette that a mid-season lunch prompted the plan, in light of the fact that there was a high chance of the franchise folding if Lemieux was not drafted.^[9] In particular, Angotti gave the example of a game the Penguins were winning 3–1, at which point general manager Eddie Johnston asked the coach "what are you doing?" in the first intermission of the game that was eventually lost 6–3. The Penguins were still, despite losing ten of their last twelve games, only two games away from losing Lemieux to the Devils.^[9] However, Angotti stated that he did not feel comfortable with the plan, even though it worked and saved the franchise. Other teams offered substantial trade packages for the draft choice, but the Penguins kept the pick and drafted Lemieux first overall."