Your opinion of fighting

[yave1964]

  I love fighting. Not fighting for its own sake, but fighting to stir the team up, a Chris Neil in your face threatening to eat your children if you dont back the hell up kind of fight.

  Goonery not so much. In what i pray to God was his final game ever in a Wings Unifrom Tootoo playing at home against the Jets was on the ice for the first shift of the game and started a fight five seconds in. His family, about forty members were in attendance and he grinned and waved all the way to the penalty box. He did not do it for the team or to settle an old grudge but to show off for his family. Babs played him sparingly (a game we lost BTW) and sent him down right after the game.

  I love grudges. Shanahan versus Adam Foote. Tie Domi against Probie. McCarty against Lemieux. Bad blood spilling over because of an affront in a previous game, when Dipetrio got his jaw jacked against the Penguins and the next game the Isles brought in every goon in the organization and simply leveled the Penguins i loved it. The Senators line Brawl which effectively ended the first round series against the Canadiens last year.

  so yeah, i love fighting for a purpose, to intimidate or to teach a lesson from a previous affront is my type of game.

  I know some want to ban it and think fans like me just dont get the game i say they are the ones who dont get it. I dont go to hockey fight web sites (Lots of them out there) but a fight for a reason is to me as good as a goal.

  That is what sucks being a Wings fan. We have two or three fights a year and they never amount to much. If i want a good old fashioned hatred anymore i usually watch a Penguin/Capitals game or a Leafs/Senators match. The Ducks and Sharks have been brewing for about two years and though the sharks play a more passive style i wouldnt be surprised if a beating breaks out and i will love it when it does.

  I give credit to this post to Commander Clueless after reading his post about the Leafs.

  So what say you? Anyone else on the side of fighting or are you on the side of the Angels?

[radoran]

Fighting has a role in the game, but too many times it's not used correctly.

 

Too much "goon for goon's sake" going on these days. I don't particularly care if, for example, Jay Rosehill flattens some AHL callup and I find it hard to believe that the team does, either.

 

Having, for example, a Wayne Simmonds stick up for his teammate and, for example, help out VLC while fighting his own fight? Glorious. The epic Flyers/Senators playoff line brawls? One of my favorite memories.

 

Ray Emery pounding on Braden Holtby? Not so much.

[flyercanuck]

I'm all for the Wayne Simmonds versus Mike Richards type of fights. Two guys battling it out, do anything to win kind of guys. Either scrapping because you pissed me off too much, or my team needs a spark. That kind of fighting belongs in the game way more than diving or shootouts or guys who throw their heads when a stick goes near them.

 

 

 But I can't stand when Jay Rosehill and Fraser McLaren skate out to the faceoff circle and plan their WWF extravaganza...like it has any effect on the game whatsoever, other than delaying it.

[B21]

Fighting has a role in the game, but too many times it's not used correctly.

 

Too much "goon for goon's sake" going on these days. I don't particularly care if, for example, Jay Rosehill flattens some AHL callup and I find it hard to believe that the team does, either.

 

Having, for example, a Wayne Simmonds stick up for his teammate and, for example, help out VLC while fighting his own fight? Glorious. The epic Flyers/Senators playoff line brawls? One of my favorite memories.

 

Ray Emery pounding on Braden Holtby? Not so much.

 

Well said.

[B21]

I'm all for the Wayne Simmonds versus Mike Richards type of fights. Two guys battling it out, do anything to win kind of guys. Either scrapping because you pissed me off too much, or my team needs a spark. That kind of fighting belongs in the game way more than diving or shootouts or guys who throw their heads when a stick goes near them.

 

 

 But I can't stand when Jay Rosehill and Kyle McLaren skate out to the faceoff circle and plan their WWF extravaganza...like it has any effect on the game whatsoever, other than delaying it.

 

The problem is that most fighting in the NHL now is the latter and not the former.  It's not worth keeping around so long as the majority of hockey fights are "just because".

 

That's what marriage is for.

[flyercanuck]

@B21

 

 It wouldn't be that hard to put a stop to having 2 guys who can't play hockey start a fight at the drop of the puck.

[yave1964]

@B21

 

 It wouldn't be that hard to put a stop to having 2 guys who can't play hockey start a fight at the drop of the puck.

  That is what I hate. Like I said I was sickened by Tootoo dropping the gloves at the opening faceoff, Babs had him take the faceoff because his family was there and the look on his face when Tootoo pulled that crap said it all. The fact that he shipped him to Grand Rapids and he hasn't been seen since says a lot too. But give me a good old fashioned hate,  I am a happy guy.

[B21]

  That is what I hate. Like I said I was sickened by Tootoo dropping the gloves at the opening faceoff, Babs had him take the faceoff because his family was there and the look on his face when Tootoo pulled that crap said it all. The fact that he shipped him to Grand Rapids and he hasn't been seen since says a lot too. But give me a good old fashioned hate,  I am a happy guy.

 

Not enough hate and too much tomfoolery.

 

On top of that....I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of the expectation that players have to answer the bell every time they are challenged.  That Thornton/Orpik episode was textbook.  Clean hit but Thornton feels the need to disprove the theories of his small willy by suckering Orpik. 

 

The players of today have proven that they are not capable of policing themselves.

[B21]

@B21

 

 It wouldn't be that hard to put a stop to having 2 guys who can't play hockey start a fight at the drop of the puck.

 

If you don't mind your core fan base screaming bloody murder....sure.

[radoran]

Not enough hate and too much tomfoolery.

 

On top of that....I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO sick of the expectation that players have to answer the bell every time they are challenged.  That Thornton/Orpik episode was textbook.  Clean hit but Thornton feels the need to disprove the theories of his small willy by suckering Orpik. 

 

The players of today have proven that they are not capable of policing themselves.

 

That is another good point - the whole "you delivered a strong, clean hit on another player so now you need to fight me" is ridiculous.

 

It's a total lack of discipline and, quite frankly, hurts the game.

[flyerrod]

The players of today have proven that they are not capable of policing themselves.

Well true enough that certain players don't want to answer the bell for egregious hits. Orpick is one of the guys I would site there and Kronwall is another. They take every little inch taking the hit up to what many times could be an interference/roughing call that is not made. Those players NEVER want to answer for that.....I don't agree with what Thornton did either. That was not fighting, that was just plain old cheap shot that deserved the suspension he got. I guess I just get sick of the Kasparitus type turtling that occurs way too often.

[DaGreatGazoo]

The players of today have proven that they are not capable of policing themselves.

 

At the risk of hijacking this thread:  Have players proven they can't, or has the league neutered them to the point they don't know what the can/can't do-get away with?  Which leads to players NOT policing themselves, and exchanging cheap shot for cheap shot?  Rather than handling things they way they used to.

Granted...the Thornton/Orpik episode is outside what I asked.  That was just flat out stupid/ridiculous, and uncalled for.  

[JackStraw]

Not a popular opinion but my feeling is that fighting in the NHL will eventually go the way of the dinosaurs. It's already being increasingly restricted in Canadian juniors, and with the growing knowledge coming out regarding head trauma and long term brain impairment, I don't see how the NHL can allow fighting to be part of the game. Mandatory visors also make fighting kind of silly. Not saying it will happen overnight, but eventually.

[B21]

Well true enough that certain players don't want to answer the bell for egregious hits. Orpick is one of the guys I would site there and Kronwall is another. They take every little inch taking the hit up to what many times could be an interference/roughing call that is not made. Those players NEVER want to answer for that.....I don't agree with what Thornton did either. That was not fighting, that was just plain old cheap shot that deserved the suspension he got. I guess I just get sick of the Kasparitus type turtling that occurs way too often.

 

So a player making what you admit is a still legal hit needs to answer for it?  A hit is either legal or not.  "Almost" is not applicable.  If a player "almost" makes contact with the head it's still legal.  if a player "almost" misses the head but still makes contact with it, it's illegal.

 

I'll even go so far as to say not all illegal hits need to be answered for.  There are countless examples of hits where it's clear that there was no intent...usually a player making some last second change of motion which puts them in a more vulnerable spot.  It's still the responsibility of the player making the hit to keep it clean but as we know that doesn't always happen. 

 

So those players should have to answer for their actions, too?

 

Cheap shots are what need to be answered for.

[B21]

At the risk of hijacking this thread:  Have players proven they can't, or has the league neutered them to the point they don't know what the can/can't do-get away with?  Which leads to players NOT policing themselves, and exchanging cheap shot for cheap shot?  Rather than handling things they way they used to.

Granted...the Thornton/Orpik episode is outside what I asked.  That was just flat out stupid/ridiculous, and uncalled for.  

 

Here's how I see that. 

 

Thornton feels Orpik's hit on Erickson that was was illegal. No penalty called though.  Thornton takes matters into his own hands so avenge Erickson and to send a message to the Pens not to subject the Bruins' starts to big clean hits (i.e. - policing).  How'd that work out?

 

How did Bertuzzi "policing" the Steve Moore hit on Naslund?

 

Or the Islanders "policing" Brent Johnson's beat down of DiPietro?

 

I think the players know what they can and cannot get away with.  Don't target the head.  Keep your skates on the ice.  Watch the hits near the boards.  There is usually little room for interpretation when a hit is that bad (i/h/m/o).

[yave1964]

@B21

 

  I was a big fan of the game where the Isles beat down the Penguins into submission.

 

  Brent Johnson beat Dipeitro and cost him his season (Admitted addition by subtraction but Fleury and Johnson were shown laughing hysterically about it afterwards. The Isles reaction, bringing in Gillies and Haley were not brought up to play hockey, it quit being a hockey game around halfway through the first period with Brent Johnson and Max Talbot taking the brunt of the retaliation. I cannot remember the score, 2-3 years ago but I remember the Isles clobbered them on the score sheet as well.

  Frankly I had no problem with the teams policing it. I know you are a Pens fan and we do not see eye to eye on everything and expect you to disagree but when you live by the sword you die by it sometimes. Maybe it does make me a rube but THAT was one of my all time favorite games. It wouldn't have mattered who the teams were, if it had been the Panthers and Coyotes I still would have loved it. More often than not the buildup for these type of things is not worth the price of admission but this one had a huge build up and delivered. Nothing staged, just a pure hatred and revenge, to me that is what fighting is for.

[B21]

@B21

 

  I was a big fan of the game where the Isles beat down the Penguins into submission.

 

  Brent Johnson beat Dipeitro and cost him his season (Admitted addition by subtraction but Fleury and Johnson were shown laughing hysterically about it afterwards. The Isles reaction, bringing in Gillies and Haley were not brought up to play hockey, it quit being a hockey game around halfway through the first period with Brent Johnson and Max Talbot taking the brunt of the retaliation. I cannot remember the score, 2-3 years ago but I remember the Isles clobbered them on the score sheet as well.

  Frankly I had no problem with the teams policing it. I know you are a Pens fan and we do not see eye to eye on everything and expect you to disagree but when you live by the sword you die by it sometimes. Maybe it does make me a rube but THAT was one of my all time favorite games. It wouldn't have mattered who the teams were, if it had been the Panthers and Coyotes I still would have loved it. More often than not the buildup for these type of things is not worth the price of admission but this one had a huge build up and delivered. Nothing staged, just a pure hatred and revenge, to me that is what fighting is for.

 

Ah - never miss a chance, do you? Always about the Pens?

 

DiPietro challenged Johnson to a fight in an earlier game that season.  Johnson obliged and floored him with one punch. Your "live by the sword, die by the sword" applies to Rick and the Isles more than anyone in this instance. Their player was the antagonist and got embarassed in the process.

 

As for the "laughing"? Yeah - it was "laughable" at the time though I don't think your conscious exaggeration ("hysterically") is fair.  It wasn't until a day or two later when DiPietro's injuries were made public.  He was up and showing no signs of being injured after the fight.  I recall him even yapping at Johnson after they were separated. So if you want to act like tough customer (like Rick did) and you go down with one punch there is going to be some much deserved "snickering". Of course in your biased eyes Fleury and Johnson were rolling on the bench like a couple of circus clows. Sigh.

 

The Isles torched them on the scoreboard in the next game though the only real beat down came when Gillies jumped Tangredi (concussion) then taunted him from the runway.  You loving that does not surpirse me though.  There were a couple other players squaring off but nothing of note until Haley went after Johnson at which time Eric Goddard left the bench and pounded Haley along with Johnson (there's that live by the sword again).

 

Again - fighting that proved nothing or solved nothing (other than DiPietro having a glass jaw) and at the end of the day, the Isles and DiPietro had no one to blame but themselves for being such an embarassment.

[B21]

@yave1964

 

I forgot.  In your haste to take another shot at the Pens you seemed to forget the point.  Players "policing" themselves.

 

Please explain how Johnston beating DiPietro in a fight that DiPietro challenged him to requires "policing"?

[Commander Clueless]

Fighting that is staged (like 95% of the Leafs' fights last year) serve no real purpose in my mind, except fan entertainment. They are entertaining when they don't detract from the game, which in my mind, happens often.

 

That said, when the going gets rough, being on the winning side of tough is a distinct advantage for the team. Nothing gets the team going like winning the match of hatred. That is extremely situational, though, making enforcers not a great return on investment.

 

Players that can play AND fight are valuable. Like Mark Fraser last year, before he fell back down to Earth. Like a meteor. And made the Coltonorrsaurus Rex extinct.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[flyerrod]

So a player making what you admit is a still legal hit needs to answer for it? A hit is either legal or not. "Almost" is not applicable. If a player "almost" makes contact with the head it's still legal. if a player "almost" misses the head but still makes contact with it, it's illegal.

I was giving a ton of leeway there. If you are going to make agressive borderline hits, then yes I think you should be willing to face the music. Or, you can choose to skate away and watch one of your team mates take an equally dangerous hit that is done to answer the borderline hit that could cost him games. That is the type of thing that escalates right out of the park leading to someone being "Maccammonded". An Illegal crosscheck by don't remember his name to Downie driving him into the boards goes uncalled. The ref looked right at it and motions Downie to play on...He gets up and takes aim at the first guy he sees coming around the net(Maccammond) and destroys him. Was it wrong what Downie did? Without a doubt but it was brought on by an uncalled penalty that Downie chose to take to the next level after being wronged.

[Polaris922]

I was giving a ton of leeway there. If you are going to make agressive borderline hits, then yes I think you should be willing to face the music. Or, you can choose to skate away and watch one of your team mates take an equally dangerous hit that is done to answer the borderline hit that could cost him games. That is the type of thing that escalates right out of the park leading to someone being "Maccammonded". An Illegal crosscheck by don't remember his name to Downie driving him into the boards goes uncalled. The ref looked right at it and motions Downie to play on...He gets up and takes aim at the first guy he sees coming around the net(Maccammond) and destroys him. Was it wrong what Downie did? Without a doubt but it was brought on by an uncalled penalty that Downie chose to take to the next level after being wronged.

Orpik is one of the cleanest heavy hitters in the game. He almost never crosses the line and in the rare instance he might its quite clear there was no intent. The guy isn't a Kronwall type (leaving his feet butt first) and puts himself as at risk in the hit as the target of the hit. He's nothing like Kasparaitis was. Nothing like Carcillo or Downie. Nothing like Pronger either with the cheap shots.

If you're going to name a guy who throws borderline hits as your example, Orpik is not your man.

[Polaris922]

@B21

I was a big fan of the game where the Isles beat down the Penguins into submission.

Brent Johnson beat Dipeitro and cost him his season (Admitted addition by subtraction but Fleury and Johnson were shown laughing hysterically about it afterwards. The Isles reaction, bringing in Gillies and Haley were not brought up to play hockey, it quit being a hockey game around halfway through the first period with Brent Johnson and Max Talbot taking the brunt of the retaliation. I cannot remember the score, 2-3 years ago but I remember the Isles clobbered them on the score sheet as well.

Frankly I had no problem with the teams policing it. I know you are a Pens fan and we do not see eye to eye on everything and expect you to disagree but when you live by the sword you die by it sometimes. Maybe it does make me a rube but THAT was one of my all time favorite games. It wouldn't have mattered who the teams were, if it had been the Panthers and Coyotes I still would have loved it. More often than not the buildup for these type of things is not worth the price of admission but this one had a huge build up and delivered. Nothing staged, just a pure hatred and revenge, to me that is what fighting is for.

Much to @B21 's point, the only Pen that took a beat down was Tangradi. He was sucker punched by Gillies for a clean body check and took a gloves off closed fist to his face while still holding his stick following the play. That have him a concussion and Gillies kept on him. Nobody else got "beat down" unless you count Haley at the end.

That was an embarrassment to the NHL. The Isles should've (and many were) been ashamed of themselves.

[B21]

I was giving a ton of leeway there. If you are going to make agressive borderline hits, then yes I think you should be willing to face the music. Or, you can choose to skate away and watch one of your team mates take an equally dangerous hit that is done to answer the borderline hit that could cost him games. That is the type of thing that escalates right out of the park leading to someone being "Maccammonded". An Illegal crosscheck by don't remember his name to Downie driving him into the boards goes uncalled. The ref looked right at it and motions Downie to play on...He gets up and takes aim at the first guy he sees coming around the net(Maccammond) and destroys him. Was it wrong what Downie did? Without a doubt but it was brought on by an uncalled penalty that Downie chose to take to the next level after being wronged.

 

Not really. Borderline is still not illegal.  Then you went from borderline to equally dangerous.  That can be a big difference. You are literally arguing to take borderline but legal hits out of the game. Otherwise, why the need to "police" them?  As for costing a guy games? It's hockey for Pete's sake. 

 

I was not aware that Downie was going after McAmmond because Downie was himself the "victim" (cough cough) of an illegal cross check but you are making my case as to why players cannot be trusted to police themselves with that one.  Downie gets cross checked. Call gets missed. So he knocks out McAmmond, who had nothing to do with it, with a vicious and blatantly illegal flying hit to the head. That sure seems fair.  He sure showed that official who missed the call! You have to see the twisted logic there. Officials miss calls all the time. Yet you want mental midgets like Steve Downie policing the game?

[B21]

Much to @B21 's point, the only Pen that took a beat down was Tangradi. He was sucker punched by Gillies for a clean body check and took a gloves off closed fist to his face while still holding his stick following the play. That have him a concussion and Gillies kept on him. Nobody else got "beat down" unless you count Haley at the end.

That was an embarrassment to the NHL. The Isles should've (and many were) been ashamed of themselves.

 

It absolutely kills that haters that, aside from Goddard leaving the bench (which can actually be justified in this case), it was the Isles who were completely in the wrong.

 

In keeping with the topic, all of that fighting sure did a lot of good. Oh wait - maybe opposing netminders will think twice before challenging Brent Johnson or going after the opposing goaling when Eric Goddard is on the bench.

 

Come to think of it, isn't it ironic that the Isles waited until Goddard was on the bench before acting like petulant children?

 

Back on topic again - fighting is pointless.

Edited March 11, 2014 by B21

[yave1964]

@yave1964

 

I forgot.  In your haste to take another shot at the Pens you seemed to forget the point.  Players "policing" themselves.

 

Please explain how Johnston beating DiPietro in a fight that DiPietro challenged him to requires "policing"?

Okay look, this was not a rip of your Penguins it would not have mattered to me who the two teams were, it was must watch TV and did not disappoint. There were no bonus points because it was Pittsburgh. I even had the game on two weeks before when Johnson beat Dipeitro and was entertained by that.

  The fact that the Isles signed the worst felons in the New York State Penal system who could stand on skates without falling over and gave them bike chains instead of hockey sticks was fun to me. Most of the times these type of games get big billing and do not live up to the hype, this one did and I loved it. Remove the chip dude, it was not a crack on your precious Penguins.