With Gus gone is there more of a push to resign Kimmo?

[OccamsRazor]

Also i'd give Tom Gilbert a shot on the blueline next season he is a UFA only made 3 mill last year.  A right hand shot 6-2 208.

 

If Alt isn't ready....but also that would be with GrossmanN traded at the draft not with GrossmanN on the roster.

 

Ok i'm ready to be put on blast in 3, 2, 1........................................

[jammer2]

@OccamsRazor I think successful cap management teams *have* to insert young d-men at some point. The Flyers stubbornly refuse, and as a result, pay the most for their mid ranged defense (at best). I believe in protecting them from tough assignments, ie 3rd pairing, but for GOD's sake...break them in, get them ready. I don't want to pay 3-4 mill for a 3rd pairing guy ever again, unless it's dirt cheap at the deadline for security/depth for the playoffs...on a pro rated deal that expires. This will be a big test for Hextall, because historically, the team never has any room for youngsters to break in....but that is exactly what is needed in a cap world. If one of Alt, Lauridsen etc is not on the opening day roster, we will know a lot about Hextall's cap management, or lack thereof.

[radoran]

I don't want to pay 3-4 mill for a 3rd pairing guy ever again

 

Oh, no no no.
 

Those guys get $5M these days...

 

[jammer2]

Oh, no no no.

 

Those guys get $5M these days...

 

Hopefully, that is Homer's idea of cap management, not Hexy's. For once, I have a legit hope that going forward, VLC's and 5 mill 3rd pairing d-men are a thing of the past. We shall see.....

[OccamsRazor]

I believe in protecting them from tough assignments, ie 3rd pairing, but for GOD's sake...break them in, get them ready.

 

Exactly. That is what camp is for.

 

We heard a lot about Akeson and him not being a NHL guy and then not even getting a mid season call up to finally get a chance the last damn game of the season.

 

That can't happen again guys need to get an early look.

 

Maybe they can maybe they can't but please don't wait till the last game games need time to acclimate themselves, get over jitters and what not. Who knows how much better Akeson could have been had been brought up ealier in the season.

 

There is not much talent on the farm to work with so how these so called experts could rationally deduce that Akeson couldn/couldn't help is beyond me...stop with all this goddamn projection crap the guy plays well give the somabitch a cup of coffee.

 

Then if he can't cut it send him back then you can honestly say we did everything we could before exploring a trade....and then i'll believe you. 

 

Alt or Ollie hell maybe even Manning if rsigned should be given a chance to play with the full timers to see that is the only real way to find out.

 

Also with that said about Akeson i would fully expect him to hit the weight real hard and try to add some much needed upper body strength to give him a better chance to succeed this upcoming camp.

 

Now i think he'll have the motivation that is needed because he got a taste of playoff hockey and no way he can want to ever play for the Phantoms again....i hope he puts the work in because he may never get another shot again if he don't make it out of camp this year you'd think,,,and it will be his fault.

[JackStraw]

@OccamsRazor I think successful cap management teams *have* to insert young d-men at some point. The Flyers stubbornly refuse, and as a result, pay the most for their mid ranged defense (at best). I believe in protecting them from tough assignments, ie 3rd pairing, but for GOD's sake...break them in, get them ready. I don't want to pay 3-4 mill for a 3rd pairing guy ever again, unless it's dirt cheap at the deadline for security/depth for the playoffs...on a pro rated deal that expires. This will be a big test for Hextall, because historically, the team never has any room for youngsters to break in....but that is exactly what is needed in a cap world. If one of Alt, Lauridsen etc is not on the opening day roster, we will know a lot about Hextall's cap management, or lack thereof.

I think people are overstating the organization's reluctance to play young defensemen. Joni Pitkanen, Ryan Parent, Randy Jones, Luca Sbisa, MAB, all got playing time. Bourdon might be a Flyer today if not for the injuries. Even Carle was only 24 when he started with the Flyers. Gus has gotten several opportunities but he hasn't been able to claim a regular spot. Ultimately the responsibility for making the team rests with the player. He has to win his spot.

[murraycraven]

Well said jack... Has a post ever been as kind as this over a 6th or 7thh dman? Lol...

[jammer2]

@JackStraw  Even though youngsters play, the Flyers account for all 7 defense spots with veterans who are locked into contracts for the upcoming year. They never just see if a guy can break into the top 7 spots with a wicked pre-season. They show no faith in the kids, and usually screw themselves in the process. I'd love to see a legit competition for our defensive spots this fall. In other words, if Laurdinsen and or Alt have an awesome camp, let them both play. That would be refreshing...plus, you can deal the vets that got beat out for picks/prospects AND lower the cap hit for the defense.

 

 Teams that are well schooled at the cap always have the next kid cued up and ready to go, it's essential to break in at least one youngster per year, that's how winners get'er done. Hopefully Hexy follows this template, would be totally refreshing. No more Hall Gills....let the kids friggin play!!!

[radoran]

I think people are overstating the organization's reluctance to play young defensemen. Joni Pitkanen, Ryan Parent, Randy Jones, Luca Sbisa, MAB, all got playing time. Bourdon might be a Flyer today if not for the injuries. Even Carle was only 24 when he started with the Flyers. Gus has gotten several opportunities but he hasn't been able to claim a regular spot. Ultimately the responsibility for making the team rests with the player. He has to win his spot.

I don't disagree - to an extent. As jammer said, they are more likely to go out and find a retread Lilja or Gill to fill a 6/7 spot than rely on their own draft picks/developing players.

You may also be stretching a little - Sbisa played 39 entire games with the Flyers and was shipped out for Pronger (for example); MAB played 45 (yes, injury); Parent 102 (over 3 years). I think this past playoff where they decided to put a traffic cone on the ice instead of Gus shows the "development" path they had embarked upon with that player. None of those guys got significant development time with the Flyers. Carle wasn't a pick - he was a trade acquisition. So was Coburn. Both of whom played a relative lot when they were "young" here (as you note) and both of whom are seen as "disappointing" and "inconsistent" and "trade bait" by large portions of the fan base.

To speak to your point, maybe it's not just the organization that has no patience with the "kids" - it's the "win now" mentality among the fan base.

Again, the last defenseman that the Flyers drafted and developed was... Chris Therien. In 1990.

The Flyers had Yuskevich, for example, and let him walk. Other draft picks of the 54 defensemen chosen over the next 20 years who have played any significant* time in the NHL: Aris Brimanis (20 Flyers games); Janne Niinimaa (143); Dennis Seidenberg (92); Milos Honan (8); Dmitri Tertyshny*; Jeff Woywitka (0); Joni Pitkanen (206); Alexandre Picard (72); Oskars Bartulis (66)...

Of those, maybe you could say that Pitkanen and Niinimaa were "given real chances" - but I don't know that any of the rest were. And, your point is quite valid that many of them didn't step up and grab "their chance."

The thing about the Flyers (and I've said this repeatedly) is that they don't want to develop defensive talent. They would rather pick up a guy (like Carle or Coburn or LSchenn) at 24/25 who's been in the league and made his "rookie mistakes" with another organization. There's nothing inherently wrong with this strategy.

But it does mean that they're more likely to give up on a Dennis Seidenberg (for Petr "shutdown center" Nedved) or trade a Luca Sbisa for Chris Pronger or a Joni Pitkanen for Jason Smith and Joffrey Lupul. And it measn that Bruno Gervais, Hall Gill and Andreas Lilja have been higher on the depth chart for the org than "their guys." And it means that they are likely to trade a 30-goal scorer for Luke Schenn or extend a Grossmann or a Coburn or an Andrew MacDonald.

Not that I "want Pitkanen/Sbisa/Seidenberg" back - for reasons which I have just stated.

But it does fly in the face of "they aren't reluctant to play young defensemen" - they are. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

I HOPE that Ghost/Haag/Morin/etc. are given chances, step up and take them. It's a new regime and a "new philosophy" to an extent. It'll be interesting to see where they go from here.

* there are some stretches in "significant time"

[brelic]

But it does fly in the face of "they aren't reluctant to play young defensemen" - they are. And there is nothing inherently wrong with that.

 

I'm not sure how you're using 'wrong' here, but if it's in the sense that it doesn't achieve the desired result, then it's sooooo wrong.

 

Since the cap's introduction, the Flyers have just never made the realization that it's a lot less feasible to just assemble a frankensquad and win it all. Hell, it didn't even work in the pre-cap world.

 

But I get your point. They are not willing to go through the growing pains, so to speak, with their own defensemen (and goaltenders for that matter). They seem to be willing to do it with forwards, and especially with centermen.

[JackStraw]

@jammer2 - Alt is only 22, and I suspect he'll get his shot in TC. Lauridsen is 25, it's pretty much now or never for him. Look at what the Devils are doing with Adam Larsson. A much more highly regarded prospect than anyone the Flyers have really, and he hasn't gotten a regular job in the NHL yet (I think he will next season though). I'd say the problem is not so much that the Flyers don't give their young defensemen a chance as it is that the Flyers just haven't had many young defensemen who looked like anything more than borderline NHL players. Kevin Marshall was a bust. Bourdon might have made it if not for injuries. Sbisa got traded for Pronger. Other than those three, who else have the Flyers drafted before Ghost, Morin, and Hagg?

 

I think it's pretty clear that the organization values all three of those kids pretty highly and I don't see any reason to rush them.

[JackStraw]

I think this past playoff where they decided to put a traffic cone on the ice instead of Gus shows the "development" path they had embarked upon with that player.

 

Everyone really needs to get over this Grossman over Gus fantasy. On more than one occasion Berube made it very clear that his preference (not a historical organizational preference mind you, Chief's own preference as coach) was to have one puck mover and one stay at home guy on each pair. So which of Timonen, Streit, or MacDonald should Gus have replaced? None of the above? That's what I thought. Gus was not ever, ever, ever, going to replace Grossman or Schenn in the lineup. Was NOT going to happen. And that was Berube's (and Laviolette's before him) choice.

 

 

 

The thing about the Flyers (and I've said this repeatedly) is that they don't want to develop defensive talent.

 

In the past, I would have agreed with you there. You could even go further and say they didn't want to develop anything other than center talent. But when was the last time the Flyers had three defense prospects like Morin, Hagg, and Ghost? The correct answer is "never".

 

Call me a dreamer but I think times are changing.

Edited May 20, 2014 by JackStraw

[radoran]

I'm not sure how you're using 'wrong' here, but if it's in the sense that it doesn't achieve the desired result, then it's sooooo wrong.

 

Since the cap's introduction, the Flyers have just never made the realization that it's a lot less feasible to just assemble a frankensquad and win it all. Hell, it didn't even work in the pre-cap world.

 

But I get your point. They are not willing to go through the growing pains, so to speak, with their own defensemen (and goaltenders for that matter).

 

I don't disagree - but Jack's point about players like Carle and Coburn is well-taken. Carle had a few seasons under his belt, but Coburn may as well be a "home grown" kid (38 Thrashers games before he got here).

 

Luke Schenn is also in that mode rightnow.

 

The best example of a "frankensquad" was probably the Primeau-led run to the Finals - Malakhov, Zhamnov, Timander, etc. That squad was held together with spit and bailing wire and made the ECFs.

 

 

 

They seem to be willing to do it with forwards, and especially with centermen.

 

Such as who? Crater? Richards? Because aside from, say, Claude Giroux and Simon Gagne, they represent about the only "home grown" players "developed" with the team over the past 20 years. Prospal, Zubrus, Williams, Sharp - Hell, Colin Fraser and Todd Fedoruk - all "developed" with other organizations.

 

Couturier, Schenn, etc. are all part of the Post-Big-Trade era which I do think marked something of a change in philosophy for the team. Hextall could be more of a new direction. We shall see...

[radoran]

Everyone really needs to get over this Grossman over Gus fantasy.

Nothing at all to do with Grossmann. Hal Gill says "hello"

In the past, I would have agreed with you there. You could even go further and say they didn't want to develop anything other than center talent. But when was the last time the Flyers had three defense prospects like Morin, Hagg, and Ghost? The correct answer is "never".

Call me a dreamer but I think times are changing.

To which I point you to another line from the post you partially quoted:

I HOPE that Ghost/Haag/Morin/etc. are given chances, step up and take them. It's a new regime and a "new philosophy" to an extent. It'll be interesting to see where they go from here.

[JackStraw]

Nothing at all to do with Grossmann. Hal Gill says "hello"

 

Hal Gill is the same as Grossman. Big, slow, stay at home guy. Gus is not an alternative.

 

To which I point you to another line from the post you partially quoted:
radoran, on 20 May 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:
I HOPE that Ghost/Haag/Morin/etc. are given chances, step up and take them. It's a new regime and a "new philosophy" to an extent. It'll be interesting to see where they go from here.

 

You and me both. My hope is that they trade Grossman, and Alt takes his spot with Lauridsen as 7th defenseman.

[brelic]

I don't disagree - but Van's point about players like Carle and Coburn is well-taken. Carle had a few seasons under his belt, but Coburn may as well be a "home grown" kid (38 Thrashers games before he got here).
 
Luke Schenn is also in that mode rightnow.

 

Good point, and maybe as @JackStraw points out, times are a-changin'. 

 

The best example of a "frankensquad" was probably the Primeau-led run to the Finals - Malakhov, Zhamnov, Timander, etc. That squad was held together with spit and bailing wire and made the ECFs.

 

Haha, this made me chuckle. Boy, was it ever a frankensquad!!

 

That FIVE OT game though. Legen- wait for it.

 

Dary.

 

Such as who? Crater? Richards? Because aside from, say, Claude Giroux and Simon Gagne, they represent about the only "home grown" players "developed" with the team over the past 20 years. Prospal, Zubrus, Williams, Sharp - Hell, Colin Fraser and Todd Fedoruk - all "developed" with other organizations.
 
Couturier, Schenn, etc. are all part of the Post-Big-Trade era which I do think marked something of a change in philosophy for the team. Hextall could be more of a new direction. We shall see...

 

Yeah, I guess you're right from a historical perspective. I was thinking of the new 'era' with Carter, Richards, G, Couturier, Sbisa (in the sense they gave him a shot right away), Bob (same thing), Schenn.

[radoran]

Hal Gill is the same as Grossman. Big, slow, stay at home guy. Gus is not an alternative.

 

But he was in Game 6 - and they won Game 6...

 

How was he "not an alternative" in Game 5, but was in Game 6 & 7??

 

Because they went with their "veteran depth" and got exposed badly on it. Gus was simply the better player and the better choice for the team, but they went with Gill anyway. That's my point about how they "develop" their defensemen.

 

They don't. Or haven't.

 

Which just exemplifies your point about needing a new direction (which I agree with) and we both hope they get there.

[radoran]

Sbisa (in the sense they gave him a shot right away)

 

The boy got 39 freaking games. That's not "a shot".

 

And they traded him for a 34-year-old defenseman...

[JackStraw]

Because they went with their "veteran depth" and got exposed badly on it. Gus was simply the better player and the better choice for the team, but they went with Gill anyway. That's my point about how they "develop" their defensemen.

 

Well, maybe this is semantics but are we talking about "developing" a guy or "playing" a guy? I could certainly argue that the organization "developed" Gus. They gave him time in the AHL and then a spot on the Flyers. Whether or not the guy plays is a coaching decision. IF Gus had nailed down a regular spot prior to the playoffs my guess is that he would have played more in the playoffs. But he didn't, despite being given several opportunities to do so.

 

I liked Gus and wanted him to succeed, but he was never the answer. The answer (imo) is that rather than a mix of small offensive guys and lumbering defensive guys, the Flyers need to put together a defense corps that has more two way guys. That's why I'm (this is going to be bad) "high on the Hagg". He's got size, he can skate, and he brings offensive skill. Ghost seems to have the smarts to be good defensively, if he bulks up a bit hopefully he will be that kind of player as well. And we'll just have to wait and see what Morin turns out to be.

 

But I do think that in today's NHL you need smart, agile, two-way defensemen and that's really what the Flyers have lacked in the recent past.

Edited May 20, 2014 by JackStraw

[mojo1917]

(this is going to be bad) "high on the Hagg"

 

perfectly perfect pun !

[radoran]

Well, maybe this is semantics but are we talking about "developing" a guy or "playing" a guy? I could certainly argue that the organization "developed" Gus. They gave him time in the AHL and then a spot on the Flyers. Whether or not the guy plays is a coaching decision. IF Gus had nailed down a regular spot prior to the playoffs my guess is that he would have played more in the playoffs. But he didn't, despite being given several opportunities to do so.

 

OK, when I brought it up it was in the context of showing their predilection for who they choose to "play" - and that they have more often than not chosen to "play" the Gill/Gervais/Lilja types over anyone "developing." I really don't think that is in any way arguable, but am happy to continue to discuss...

 

And, for all of the "opportunity" they "gave" Gus that he "failed" to take advantage of, Gus never played more than 31 games in a season (30-27-31). He was a victim of Homer's abysmal waiver management more than anything - and predilection for playing Gill/Gervais/Lilja types which has been true for more than just Berube's tenure as coach.

[JackStraw]

and predilection for playing Gill/Gervais/Lilja types which has been true for more than just Berube's tenure as coach.

 

Yes, and if more than one coach passes over the guy then maybe the guy just isn't good enough?

[radoran]

Yes, and if more than one coach passes over the guy then maybe the guy just isn't good enough?

 

It is certainly possible, yes.I don't believe I have disagreed with that.

 

Your point was that they do give players "chances" and while I don't entirely disagree (30 games in a season can be a "chance") my point was that the chances are fleeting, there is not an emphasis on developing players and that they have a clear predilection for playing "established vets" over their developing players.

 

We can both be "right" in this situation - to a degree... You seem to want to make it about "Gus" or "Grossmann" or "Gill." I'm talking about more than just Gus, about the past 20 years.

 

Again, that they would rather bring in a 24-year-old that has "developed" elsewhere (Carle, Schenn) than endure any growing pains here. And, again, I'm not saying that that strategy in and of itself is a bad thing.

 

Now, if you want to go with "they can't/haven't draft(ed) effective defensemen" that's another discussion we can have that we probably won't disagree on very much either...

[JackStraw]

Your point was that they do give players "chances" and while I don't entirely disagree (30 games in a season can be a "chance") my point was that the chances are fleeting, there is not an emphasis on developing players and that they have a clear predilection for playing "established vets" over their developing players.

 

I think that is going to be true of most teams, particularly teams that are cap-ceiling teams rather than cap-floor teams. The AHL, college, Europe and juniors are for developing players. So, as shocking as it sounds, the Flyers are in fact "developing" Ghost, Hagg, and Morin.

 

 

 

We can both be "right" in this situation

 

DONE.

 

 

 

You seem to want to make it about "Gus" or "Grossmann" or "Gill." I'm talking about more than just Gus, about the past 20 years.

 

No, that's not really what I'm trying to make it about. FC and I have been b!tching for years about the Flyers inability/reluctance/whatever to draft and develop good defensemen. Gus has become the poster boy for this for a lot of Flyers fans, but he's a bad example. He wasn't drafted and if he was highly regarded by anyone in the NHL he wouldn't be headed for the KHL. So the difference in my mind is that while some fans think the Flyers are not developing the talent they have, my opinion is that they just haven't had the talent to develop. Now with the "three amigos" they do, so we'll see what happens.

 

 

 

Now, if you want to go with "they can't/haven't draft(ed) effective defensemen" that's another discussion we can have that we probably won't disagree on very much either...

 

Now see, if you had just put that first it would have saved me a lot of typing.

Edited May 20, 2014 by JackStraw

[radoran]

No, that's not really what I'm trying to make it about. FC and I have been b!tching for years about the Flyers inability/reluctance/whatever to draft and develop good defensemen. Gus has become the poster boy for this for a lot of Flyers fans, but he's a bad example. He wasn't drafted and if he was highly regarded by anyone in the NHL he wouldn't be headed for the KHL. So the difference in my mind is that while some fans think the Flyers are not developing the talent they have, my opinion is that they just haven't had the talent to develop. Now with the "three amigos" they do, so we'll see what happens.

 

OK, but the Flyers kept Gus up all season, wanted Gus to re-sign, are tendering him to keep his rights and no other team could have picked him up without an offer sheet.

 

That's a far cry from "no one wanted him." The Flyers did want him and do want him so they are keeping his rights. The grapes are not obviously sour

 

I'm not in any way saying that Gus is a "loss" (in fact, being in the KHL could be best for all concerned at this point) or that I'm lamenting his departure. I'm really not - where it applies to "Gus" as "Gus."

 

"Gus" as the latest in a long line of defensemen that the Flyers haven't effectively developed is more to the point with the corollary that they haven't really drafted defensemen terribly well.

 

Dennis Seidenberg got about the same number of games as Gus with the Flyers - "a chance" - and when he was shipped out I remember vividly many people stating that it was no great loss, that no one really wanted him, that he was never going to amount to much...

 

There's a clear difference between giving a guy "a chance" and taking a real look at developing a player.

 

And those grapes that so many are convinced are obviously sour sometimes make some pretty damn good wine.

 

As for the "three amigos" I honest to God see no reason to peg Morin (1st round), Haag (2nd) and Gotsbeer? (3rd) higher than Joni Pitkanen (1st round), Kevin Marshall (2nd round) and Marc-Andre Bourdon (3rd round).

 

The question for me is will they get "a chance" that is more than 30-60 games before they are disappointing, obviously not going to be developed and trade bait for "better players."

 

That's what I want to see from Hextall's "new direction."