Is Eric Lindros a Hall of Famer?

[Irishjim]

Guys like Cam Neely can get in with a short career if he has no baggage. Lindros baggage has kept him out. His numbers are right there on the bubble, I think he will eventually get in but the reason it has taken this long and he is still on the outside looking in has less to do with his numbers and more to do with everything else. Objectively that is easy to see.

  I understand why Flyer fans would be upset by this. I am a Reds fan, so is my whole family, even after all these years just the mention of Pete Rose and the Hall of Fame gets a raucous argument going that can last for hours. Someone usually gets it going once or twice a year when we are all together and bored.  (It breaks my heart but I vote no on Pete BTW).  

  Essentially IMHO Lindros has numbers that meh qualify him for the Hall, he would likely be in if it weren't for the Quebec thing, the constant distractions and feuding with Clarke and if he had won a cup. You cannot count parents or a wife or any family member against someone, but in the back of their minds I guarantee it is there with at least some of the voters. Personal feelings aside, I would never vote for him, but there are worse players in the hall.

man you are obsessed  with his personal life and dysfunctional family really dude you need to get over that..and this is the hockey hall..not the nhl hall. the hockey hall looks at his Junior career as well.... and as far as the Quebec thing. do you feel John elway is worthy of the Hall. cause he told baltimore to go pound sand and he'd go play for the yankees if they drafted him

[ruxpin]

Bobby Orr was basically done at age 27. Should he have not gotten in?

Yes, because he nearly single handedly and fundamentally changed the way the position (and consequently the game) was played.

That has to go into the Hall.

[ruxpin]

man you are obsessed with his personal life and dysfunctional family really dude you need to get over that..and this is the hockey hall..not the nhl hall. the hockey hall looks at his Junior career as well.... and as far as the Quebec thing. do you feel John elway is worthy of the Hall. cause he told baltimore to go pound sand and he'd go play for the yankees if they drafted him

Speaking of obsessed, you *seem* to be taking this a bit personally.

Maybe it's that some of us view the Hall with a little too romantic a view. But for me, the Hall should be reserved for the Best of the Best ALL things considered.

For me, for all the things yave and Polaris mentioned and more, that ain't Lindros.

I'd say the Hall voters clearly agree.

[blocker]

I don't see Neely as the standard, he is, to me, a bit of a mistake. Nice guy, well liked, had the one amazing year, personally I would not have put him in.

 

I think you and I agree.  I didn't say that Neely was THE standard.  I said that "if" he was A standard. 

[Vanflyer]

if foppa made the hall. so should lindros....their stats mirror each other

 

Exactly what I said yesterday! 

[ruxpin]

I'm sorry, but if people can't see the difference between Forsberg's career and Lindros and why the former goes in the Hall while the latter doesn't, I just can't help them.

Even if both are borderline, Forsberg won two Cups and wasn't a little b****. Those things don't get you in and don't keep you out when you're otherwise clearly deserving, but when you're borderline, the Cups help and the absence of them and being a whiney b**** hurt

[yave1964]

I'm sorry, but if people can't see the difference between Forsberg's career and Lindros and why the former goes in the Hall while the latter doesn't, I just can't help them.

Even if both are borderline, Forsberg won two Cups and wasn't a little b****. Those things don't get you in and don't keep you out when you're otherwise clearly deserving, but when you're borderline, the Cups help and the absence of them and being a whiney b**** hurt

 As a Wings fan, I watched more Forsberg/Avalanche than I would have cared to, God could that guy play, he left it out there on every shift, never took a shift off, those damn ankles of his ruined what othersise would have been a lights out career. As it was he was an absolute force to reckon with combined with Sakic and Roy, I absolutely hated them but respected them and long for that kind of rivalry again.

  Totally agree with you about people who cannot see the difference between Forsberg and Lindros. No comparison.

 IF the league had sided with the Rangers and declared their trade for Lindros as the valid one, my opinion is the Flyers, with Forsberg and Ricci and Duchesne and Hextall and picks and 15 million dollars and a freaking partridge in a pear tree would have absolutely won at least one cup if not more. I know Eric was a force to be reckoned with and a hell of a player, but that package they gave up, wow. I know this, in 1997 Forsberg would have never allowed his team to have been swept in the Stanley Cup finals like that. Never.

[ruxpin]

As a Wings fan, I watched more Forsberg/Avalanche than I would have cared to, God could that guy play, he left it out there on every shift, never took a shift off, those damn ankles of his ruined what othersise would have been a lights out career. As it was he was an absolute force to reckon with combined with Sakic and Roy, I absolutely hated them but respected them and long for that kind of rivalry again.

Totally agree with you about people who cannot see the difference between Forsberg and Lindros. No comparison.

IF the league had sided with the Rangers and declared their trade for Lindros as the valid one, my opinion is the Flyers, with Forsberg and Ricci and Duchesne and Hextall and picks and 15 million dollars and a freaking partridge in a pear tree would have absolutely won at least one cup if not more. I know Eric was a force to be reckoned with and a hell of a player, but that package they gave up, wow. I know this, in 1997 Forsberg would have never allowed his team to have been swept in the Stanley Cup finals like that. Never.

I don't know if Forsberg would have made a difference in 1997 or if the Flyers even make those finals.

But I will say this: if the league sides with the Rangers and awards them Lindros, the Rangers do NOT win their Cup in 1994.

[Vanflyer]

He ignored that warning given to all players,  "keep your head up.".

 

Not to defend him on that, but really from Pee Wee's on up, he was always bigger AND stronger than all the other players. So nobody never taught him that lesson at an early age that instills it for the rest of you hockey development days and eventual pro career. Then he gets to the NHL where, lo and behold, there are guys bigger than him and smarter than him and see the one glaring fault to his game: he skates with his head down. 

 

Combine that with that he had developed the attitude that he can do anything on the ice because of his physical dominance his entire development years, you have a player that comes into the NHL crash / banging everything in site, putting a mammoth bullseye on his "head" (back), so to speak. If he was a selke type of player, he probably would of had a glorious long career. But he wanted to make the opposition pay the tool- always. Thats fine if you have all your fundamentals of hockey "ducks" in a row- even then someone will always be gunning for you. 

 

Look at Forsberg, he was a tough SOB physically, but he did not go gunning for people non-stop. He picked his spots. 

Edited June 25, 2014 by Vanflyer

[Vanflyer]

Totally agree with you about people who cannot see the difference between Forsberg and Lindros. No comparison.

 

I would disagree with that. I saw @ruxpin / Rads post regarding the same comment. I lived in Colorado when the Noridiques moved there and was an Avs fan. Like you, loved Forsbergs game. Great / amazing player. To that extent, just a different kind, I thought lindros was equally great / amazing. 

 

Their numbers are nearly identical with the exception has 2x as many PIMs (actually putting an exclamation point that he was producing equal clip to forsberg playing less minutes a game). 

 

Also, with the AVS, you have FIVE HOFers (Roy, Sakic, Forsberg, Blake, Bourque). So to bring cups into the equation seems a bit disingenuous. Especially when Forsberg did not have allot to do with the second one.

 

I guess at the end of the day, what is the criteria to get in?

 

# of championships?

Individual play?

Persona? *

Parents?

 

* FWIW- and I say this as a hockey fan, I think Stevens was a smug a-hole d i c k. Yet he was a heck of a hockey player who played on the edge similar to lindros. I would same the same of Clarke. 

[ruxpin]

@Vanflyer

# of championships?

Individual play?

Persona? *

Parents?

Definitely not parents.

But like I said, when you have a player whose numbers qualify for borderline, now the other stuff is weighed that wouldn't be considered for a player that is "no doubt about it." Mike Bossy, for example, could have clubbed seals to death with the stiffened dead bodies of small children and he would have gotten in.

The Quebec stuff, the fight with the Flyers, the CHOKING in 1997,the relatively short career, etc. isn't keeping him out. It's just not helping a borderline guy get over the hump.

Forsberg has similar numbers. Arguably borderline as well. He fought OTHER teams, not his own. He did lift two Cups. He wasn't known as a sulking whiney b****. Those things helped push him in when the individual play got him to where it really could go either way.

[sarsippius]

I personally feel he should have been one of the top ten players of all time but wound up being a very, very good player, not a great one

And that really is the whole thing isn't it? That's the "big what if" that tortures many a Flyer fan to this day. In the pre-internet days when the Hockey News print edition was still king, when hockey info didn't travel so in the US outside of the usual hotbed areas, we were hearing about this Lindros kid since he was 14. Player with a combination of skill, size and a mean streak like nobody had ever seen. Whoever gets this kid and puts half a team around him is going to win Cups. Plural.

We got him. And we didn't get what we were promised. The bar was set high and he never got to it. To me this is the biggest impediment to his getting into the Hall, in the minds of many voters, he shoulda been better. Even though for a time he was the force we had hoped he would be, in the end he didn't live up to those monster expectations.

Oh yeah and this, which shouldn't directly impact anything to do with the Hall but...how many players, in any sport, at any time, can you name the player's parents by name???? None right? F*** you Carl, and F*** you Bonnie. You wiped your baby boy's ass when he was grown man, and you meddled in team business. You had as much to do with your son's ultimate alienation from the team as he did.

[ruxpin]

@sarsippius

I think your outcome vs. expectations thing is probably a big part of it. Nice post.

[sarsippius]

@ruxpin

Thanks man, although the profanity laced tirade about the original helicopter parents was the part that really felt good.

Somewhere on this thread you mentioned the Quebec thing, and as a Baltimore Colt fan that got told to go F himself by John Elway, that always bugged me. To me they both thought they were bigger than the game. But nobody talks about Elway's prima dona act with any significance anymore, mostly because after that he was mostly a good citizen and teammate and leader.

[yave1964]

@sarsippius

 

very nice post. thank you and Rux very much.

[sarsippius]

@yave1964

My pleasure and thanks. Good topic, with a guy like E there will be no shortage of strong oponions!

[ruxpin]

with a guy like E there will be no shortage of strong oponions!

 

Yes, and we all know it takes something truly exceptional for me to offer a strong opinion. 

[jammer2]

@Irishjim  Man oh man, I'm so GLAD I took the time to watch that. Enough time has passed, I forgot a lot of those hits and fights...great to see him filling in Scott Stevens like that!!  Some of those hits were ALL TIME greats. He flat out obliterated guys. There was never a guy that physical and that talented....perhaps Cam Neeley could be in that small elite group...but just based on his great PPG (still in the top 20 of all time) and his amazing skill set, he should be there.

 

 Would you not love to see how Eric would have performed in the original six? I'm sorry, as tough as Gordie Howe was, Eric would have flattened him just like everyone else that got in his path.

[JackStraw]

But for me, the Hall should be reserved for the Best of the Best ALL things considered

 

But that's not really what it is. Who was the better hockey player, Eric Lindros or Bill Barber? To me it's Lindros and it's not even close. But Barber is in. As are many other really good, but not great, hockey players. That's the standard that's been set and I'd have to say Lindros meets that standard.

 

Look through the list of players in the HoF (you can sort it by position) and tell me that there aren't a bunch of guys there who couldn't hold Lindros' athletic supporter:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Hockey_Hall_of_Fame#Players

[Polaris922]

Huh? How so? An awful lot of people became hockey fans because of Lindros, and not just Flyers fans. I would guess that Lindros probably had a greater impact on popularizing the game than Neely did. Probably more than quite a few players who are already in the HoF.

I disagree with a the "an awful lot of people became hockey fans because of Lindros". I've never met a single non-Flyer fan that said they were drawn to the sport by him. I'm sure in Flyer circles it helped a lot, but not much elsewhere. His Quebec issue was ridiculous and angered many hockey fans over the disrespect for tradition and the league. He was known as a selfish crybaby team wrecker. The guy was a holdout in JUNIORS for crying out loud.

What did he do to promote the game? Nothing. How generous of a player was he with his millions? He wasn't. Not until he himself was treated for his injuries and upon retirement made a huge donation. He won nothing. Penalty minutes support him? I beg to differ. Do you want Giroux in the box or on the ice? Thought so.

Yes borderline stats. And nothing else positive to push him over the hump. Nothing but black marks that I can see.

[ruxpin]

But that's not really what it is. Who was the better hockey player, Eric Lindros or Bill Barber? To me it's Lindros and it's not even close. But Barber is in. As are many other really good, but not great, hockey players. That's the standard that's been set and I'd have to say Lindros meets that standard.

Look through the list of players in the HoF (you can sort it by position) and tell me that there aren't a bunch of guys there who couldn't hold Lindros' athletic supporter:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_members_of_the_Hockey_Hall_of_Fame#Players

I completely and resoundingly disagree with that. X10 on the part about Barber.

Completely different opinions on both the Hall AND Lindros.

And the people in the Hall wouldn't need to carry Lindros' athletic supporter because he doesn't use one; his mother always carried his sack for him.

Barber absolutely belongs. Lindros does not.

[ruxpin]

I disagree with a the "an awful lot of people became hockey fans because of Lindros". I've never met a single non-Flyer fan that said they were drawn to the sport by him. I'm sure in Flyer circles it helped a lot, but not much elsewhere. His Quebec issue was ridiculous and angered many hockey fans over the disrespect for tradition and the league. He was known as a selfish crybaby team wrecker. The guy was a holdout in JUNIORS for crying out loud.

What did he do to promote the game? Nothing. How generous of a player was he with his millions? He wasn't. Not until he himself was treated for his injuries and upon retirement made a huge donation. He won nothing. Penalty minutes support him? I beg to differ. Do you want Giroux in the box or on the ice? Thought so.

Yes borderline stats. And nothing else positive to push him over the hump. Nothing but black marks that I can see.

Agreed all the way around. I really don't know what non-Flyer fans he drew.

He was a very good player but a lousy person. And his career was cut short because - - and I cannot stress this enough - - he never learned to skate without watching the puck. This wasn't Forsberg with a bad foot out Lemieux with cancer or Orr with a crap back. This was a guy who couldn't help repeatedly walking out into oncoming traffic because never even was aware there was traffic.

Again, the actual voters clearly agree. And good on them.

[Vanflyer]

How generous of a player was he with his millions?

 

Eric Lindros was extremely involved with CHOP (childrens hospital of philadelphia) and continues to be in raising money for the hospital. 

 

Him (and John Leclaire) have held many events to raise money for this charity. Both were extremely generous with their time during their seasons in philadelphia visiting the hospital on many occasions, bringing presents, etc. 

 

Two points I would like to make: 

 

1) Sydney Crosby's has only given not a single dime of his salary in charitable contributions. While he gets involved in charities and has established some charities, its more about his time than money. The ONLY money he ever gave out of his own pocket was the $20,000 that he got for winning the gold at SOCHI Olympics. 

 

2) This years King Clancy award (given to the player that best exemplifies community spirit and humanitarianism) was Adnrew Ference. The total amount out of his pocket: $16,389.00.  

 

I get you don't like Lindros. No problem. Yet don't be throwing stones at Lindros for not being "generous" during his playing days- as 99.9% are not (out of their pocket- including Cindy). Most get involved by giving with their time in charity foundations and charity events as they can have an equal or greater impact to those charities in visibility and raising funds than just opening up their check book. 

Edited June 26, 2014 by Vanflyer

[JackStraw]

I disagree with a the "an awful lot of people became hockey fans because of Lindros". I've never met a single non-Flyer fan that said they were drawn to the sport by him. I'm sure in Flyer circles it helped a lot, but not much elsewhere.

 

I probably didn't phrase that right. I have seen (on hfboards) people who were not Flyers fans before Lindros, and who were not from the Philly area (i.e., they had no natural connection to the Flyers) say they became fans because of Lindros. Maybe they became Flyers fans, I don't know.

 

His Quebec issue was ridiculous and angered many hockey fans over the disrespect for tradition and the league. He was known as a selfish crybaby team wrecker. The guy was a holdout in JUNIORS for crying out loud.

 

Both of those holdouts were his parents' doing. They should have no bearing on whether or not he gets into the hall. Otoh, he was a fantastic player in juniors, and that should have bearing on the selection process. The HHoF is not just about the NHL, as I assume you're aware.

[JackStraw]

I completely and resoundingly disagree with that. X10 on the part about Barber.

 

What about Barber makes you think he was so Hall-worthy? He never led the league in any offensive category (Lindros did). He never won any NHL awards (Lindros did). He was never even considered the best player on own his team, let alone the league. He was also possibly the most notorious diver I've ever seen play (not that that should have any bearing on his selection but if we can talk about Lindros skating with his head down we can talk about Barber's diving).

 

Barber's goal totals are nice, but it helped that he played next to one of the best pure playmakers the league has ever seen. If he had played his entire career for say, Atlanta (who passed over him in the draft in favor of Jacques Richard, also a LW) he probably doesn't come close to those numbers.

Edited June 26, 2014 by JackStraw