Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

[ruxpin]

No ninja I dunno, I think it's my perspective on things that has changed the most over the past year. All this self-development stuff really works, haha!

 

That made me smile.  

[murraycraven]

Agree with your comments on player, etc.

 

And I definitely agree about the constant juggling of lines and have written similar about "system."

 

But I do wonder if the "system" thing is a bit overblown.  Mojo (I think it was mojo) wrote a pretty good post about what the system is supposed to be.  I honestly don't see it, but he's typically a better Xs & Os guy than I am so I trust his assessment.

 

I'll hang my hat on the line juggling thing but maybe both the juggling and the difficulty in perceiving a system is that we really do have a bunch of pieces that don't go together cohesively.  Even with the box with the finished picture on it right next to you, it's pretty hard to put a jigsaw puzzle together and have it look right when someone's thrown a bunch of pieces from six other puzzles in there and took some of the proper pieces out.

 

 

another alarming stat is we are 28th in golas per game..  We are also 24th in the league at scoring first. 

 

I will look for mojos post b/c I love Xs and Os...   Coaching tonight so I think I wont have any chalk talk or system talk... just tell my team to compete and skate hard.  

[hf101]

That is not anything Berube does special.   What is being questioned is the constant juggling of lines and the "system" that Berube is trying to get this team to play.
 
Going by that logic we also have the worst PK in the league, are pretty one dimensional in scoring, we have two stiffs in Umberger and VLC that are making nearly more money that anyone on the team, our defense is terrible - so does that mean they are a terrible team?  No... are they a great team?  No... they are pretty average.
 
I am sure just skating harder and giving a 60 minute effort every night will put this team right in contention w/ the ECFs

 

I think it is easily forgotten that we started out the year with 2 of 6 top 4 d-men out with injuries.   Then add to that Raffl one of our best penalty killers  and L. Schenn which cost us 4 of 8  PKer's out for significant time.  I'd say that would drop any team in the standings for best penalty kills.  Prior to those injuries this team prided itself in its penalty kill.  I expect the those team stats to improve steadily now that all of the above are back in the lineup.

 

As far as Umberger and Vinny, yeah those two aren't any of my favorites and I do think that they will improve as they are getting more control in the offensive zone..... 

 

Every team juggles their lines.  IT isn't that Berube is taking what works and breaking it up.

[Podein25]

Agree with your comments on player, etc.

And I definitely agree about the constant juggling of lines and have written similar about "system."

But I do wonder if the "system" thing is a bit overblown. Mojo (I think it was mojo) wrote a pretty good post about what the system is supposed to be. I honestly don't see it, but he's typically a better Xs & Os guy than I am so I trust his assessment.

I'll hang my hat on the line juggling thing but maybe both the juggling and the difficulty in perceiving a system is that we really do have a bunch of pieces that don't go together cohesively. Even with the box with the finished picture on it right next to you, it's pretty hard to put a jigsaw puzzle together and have it look right when someone's thrown a bunch of pieces from six other puzzles in there and took some of the proper pieces out.

Maybe Berube has a diagram but he's just trying anything to make the car go without wheels.

I like the puzzle analogy. But in today's NHL that's gonna happen. It is the coach's job to figure the damn puzzle out, isn't it? And right now he's just guessing, trying to jam pieces that don't fit together, try again etc

And to follow up my earlier point about lack of luck support, I can easily see that as a manifestation of constant line changes....

[murraycraven]

I think it is easily forgotten that we started out the year with 2 of 6 top 4 d-men out with injuries.   Then add to that Raffl one of our best penalty killers  and L. Schenn which cost us 4 of 8  PKer's out for significant time.  I'd say that would drop any team in the standings for best penalty kills.  Prior to those injuries this team prided itself in its penalty kill.  I expect the those team stats to improve steadily now that all of the above are back in the lineup.

 

As far as Umberger and Vinny, yeah those two aren't any of my favorites and I do think that they will improve as they are getting more control in the offensive zone..... 

 

Every team juggles their lines.  IT isn't that Berube is taking what works and breaking it up.

 

 

I am truly not dismissing you points of view and apologize if that is what it seems.  

 

I am not sure but I would bet the PK was on par to what it is now earlier in the season.   It was pretty bad all year.   Maybe I am wrong...

 

I just think when you look at Berube and the constant juggling or impatience of a line it really does not help the team.   I am a big believer in setting lines and rolling lines as a unit - cohesion.  Players really do get to know each others tendencies on the ice.   Not taking Schenn of the first line after a few periods...  he is always juggling lines.  There are only puzzle pieces on the table and Chief cant seem to put it together.  The 2 pieces that start the puzzle are G and Jake - after that it is a constant mix...

 

Just my opinion... not negative.  Just calling it the way I see it right now.

[doom88]

I'm not sure who to quote, but after reading a bunch of posts here about line juggling and the poor play of the team overall, I think there may be a simple explanation. The players suck, and no combination is going to change that.

[murraycraven]

I'm not sure who to quote, but after reading a bunch of posts here about line juggling and the poor play of the team overall, I think there may be a simple explanation. The players suck, and no combination is going to change that.

 

 

fair enough but you would say the following players suck:

 

G

Jake

Cooter (still plays good d)

Simmonds

Schenn

Streit

Laughton (since he has been here)

Read (not playing well but is a 20 goal scorer)

Raffl

Bellemare

MDZ

Mason

 

Here is who I would classify as suck:

VLC

RJ

fLuke Schenn

Grossman

McDud

 

 

everyone else is vanilla IMO and wont really hurt you...  the lineup is not terrible... not great either.

[murraycraven]

alright boys... I gotta bail for the time being and get my lineup together for tonight.  

 

in the honor of Rux and Pods I will tell my team of players to skate hard and compete before the game!     that should be enough for a win right!?

[doom88]

fair enough but you would say the following players suck:

G

Jake

Cooter (still plays good d)

Simmonds

Schenn

Streit

Laughton (since he has been here)

Read (not playing well but is a 20 goal scorer)

Raffl

Bellemare

MDZ

Mason

Here is who I would classify as suck:

VLC

RJ

fLuke Schenn

Grossman

McDud

everyone else is vanilla IMO and wont really hurt you... the lineup is not terrible... not great either.

I think you took that a little too literally, but you made some good lists. I guess I should say a bunch of square peg round hole situations? Maybe players playing more important roles than their skill level?

[murraycraven]

I think you took that a little too literally, but you made some good lists. I guess I should say a bunch of square peg round hole situations? Maybe players playing more important roles than their skill level?

No argument there doom!

[ruxpin]

It is the coach's job to figure the damn puzzle out, isn't it?

 

Yes.  It may, however, require a picture that is different than what came with the box.  In other words, if you don't have the pieces that don't match the box and you have a bunch of random pieces from other boxes...

 

Oh, enough with the analogy, it's making my head hurt.

 

I guess I'm just throwing out there that of his 12 forwards, he has 2 (16.7% if we care) that just aren't going to go with anyone (VLC Sucks and Umberber Meisterblow).    You have 12 forwards and like 6 centers among them. etc. etc. etc.  "In the NHL that's going to happen." (I think I'm paraphrasing, so sorry for quotations if I messed it up).   I'm assuming maybe you're referring to the "pieces from other boxes" and meaning "players from other teams" or "players new to the group."   In that case, yes.     But I'm actually referring to players (VLC/Umberger) that just aren't going to fit in the round hole they're trying to put them in.  Regardless of lines, regardless of "system."

 

I suppose Berube could change the system to fit the players.  My problem is I don't actually know what such a system would look like.  Has any coach come up with a system that would involve two players in rocking chairs?

 

I just noticed @doom88 's "maybe the players just suck" (again, paraphrasing).  When it comes down to it, that's pretty much it.

 

I'm with rad and murray and some others that are questioning Berube, but ultimately it comes down to what doom said.  We have a couple nice pieces, but they are being drowned by some anvils around them.  When you only have a first line and then a bunch of ever-changing partials and mix it with a putrid defense it may be hard for any coach to produce something that even smells like cohesion.

 

It smells.  It just doesn't smell like cohesion (unless cohesion smells like dogshit).

[AJgoal]

I will defer to AJ on that one... IMO he is the stat master around these parts!

 

Thanks for dragging me into this, MC . j/k, I'm glad I provide some value.

 

From a quick read, the adj P (adjusted pythagorean) is apparently a byzantine torture method developed by someone with a statistics book and one too many vodkas. Essentially, it's a ratio between goals for, goals against, and offensive/defensive efficiencies, which are calculated based on shots per possession. I'm still finding my way around the advanced stats, so I'm not sure how useful or insightful this particular ratio is, but it seems like it could provide a decent basis for evaluation, and should quantify the eye test fairly well at the team level. That is assuming the numbers used are not subject to any sort of bias.

 

I think the fact that the team can't get out of the defensive zone, and has trouble with entering the offensive zone, tends to make the games somewhat boring from our perspective. Nobody wants to see their team struggle. There's just nothing electric about the team right now, at least not for any sustained amount of time. With the exception of the first  line, none of the lines are able to sustain pressure on a regular basis. "Dump or carry the puck, lose possession, switch to defense" isn't all that fun to watch.

[Podein25]

@ruxpin

 

In honor of the day (tomorrow), I think it's proper to paraphrase part of your post with: "It's hard to soar like an eagle when you're surrounded by turkeys"

 

There's no question about the cohesion issue. I think we can all agree on that. It's a question of the cause(s) and possible solutions at this point.

[Podein25]

... the team can't get out of the defensive zone..

 

 

In truth, this has been a problem for years under a number of coaches and with a number of different players. But we sure miss Kimmo, that much is clear.

[ruxpin]

I think you took that a little too literally, but you made some good lists. I guess I should say a bunch of square peg round hole situations? Maybe players playing more important roles than their skill level?

 

This.  We have a bunch of players who suck together.  They just don't go together.  That's not all on the players.  If they don't go together, they don't go together.  That's on Holmgren, IMO.  Sometimes a GM can't know until he puts players together and they just don't gel.  But VLC sucks was an easy one (search my posts the day of the signing.  If I can figure it out, so can a tree).  Umberger isn't on Homer; he's on Hextall.  I give it a pass because I figure Hextall knew he was tanking this season but still needed to sell tickets so didn't admit to it.  He's trying to free up space down the road.  I get it.  But I can't blame Berube for either VLC sucks or Umberger.

 

I don't know who to blame for Read since he's been good previously. He's on Murray's "doesn't suck" list, but I beg to differ.  This year, he's the poster boy for suckage.  I forget who (@brelic?) but someone wanted to move him last year or the year before.  Maybe they were right.

 

And I guess it was hf101 who commented about the injuries on defense. That has merit, but I'm not buying it.  This team's defense sucks even with those folks back.  Now we just have MORE healthy mediocre at best defensemen.  I can't blame Berube for the fact the predecessor GM went dumpster diving for dmen and with a straight face thought this was an NHL squad.  

 

So yes, bad players mix and horrible general manager.  I've been hard on Berube, but I'll continue to give him a bit of a pass until he shows what he can or cannot do with an actual NHL team.

 

It's still excruciatingly boring to watch, though.  If they had exactly the same record but showed some energy or passion or even a pulse, it wouldn't be so bad.

[Mad Dog]

I agree they are not the most exciting squad to watch these days.  The days of Lindros, Roenick, Forsberg, and even Mike Richards are gone.

 

But you know what?  The Devils were one of the most boring teams I can ever remember watching.  But I will take their 3 "boring" Stanley Cups over an exciting team who doesn't win any day of the week.

 

The problem is not that the Flyers are boring - that I can live with.  The problem is they just have way too many holes as they are constructed today.  That's what we shoudl be talking about - not the fact that they are a snooz fest.

[brelic]

That made me smile.  

 

Haha, glad I could help. If you're interested, I could suggest a book that has completely changed my life and outlook. It's probably more that it was the right book at the right time

[brelic]

We have a bunch of players who suck together.  They just don't go together.

 

Is it, though? I remember thinking that at almost any given time in the recent and not-so-recent past and thinking the same thing.

 

Is it possible that this schizophrenic franchise just doesn't give its teams the time to 'go' together? The kind of cohesion we're all talking about takes years - not months or a few periods of hockey here and there.

[ruxpin]

I agree they are not the most exciting squad to watch these days. The days of Lindros, Roenick, Forsberg, and even Mike Richards are gone.

But you know what? The Devils were one of the most boring teams I can ever remember watching. But I will take their 3 "boring" Stanley Cups over an exciting team who doesn't win any day of the week.

The problem is not that the Flyers are boring - that I can live with. The problem is they just have way too many holes as they are constructed today. That's what we shoudl be talking about - not the fact that they are a snooz fest.

Let's not compare them to the Devils cup winning teams. In fact, what you said was kind of the point.

It's a given that they suck and have holes. The point was the suckage would be possibly bearable to watch if they were remotely interesting (let alone entertaining). They are not.

Of course it would be better if they were winning, then interesting or entertaining would simply be added bonus (and lack of would likely go unnoticed because we'd be too busy winning).

As to discussing holes, I guess I thought the 570 threads discussing that would be enough for that and maybe it would be okay to discuss another aspect that sucks.

[brelic]

It's a given that they suck and have holes. The point was the suckage would be possibly bearable to watch if they were remotely interesting (let alone entertaining). They are not.

Of course it would be better if they were winning, then interesting or entertaining would simply be added bonus (and lack of would likely go unnoticed because we'd be too busy winning).

 

Would you say that these two are inextricably linked? I mean, when we win, it's entertaining because we win, and so it becomes a lot easier to overlook lesser things like 'soft' or 'vanilla' or 'line juggling'. 

 

I can't say that I've ever enjoyed watching a bottom of the pack Flyers squad. Until now, and only because of the promise of a better architect at the helm. Of course, Hextall's next move will give us more insight as to whether he's for real or not.

[ruxpin]

Is it, though? I remember thinking that at almost any given time in the recent and not-so-recent past and thinking the same thing.

Is it possible that this schizophrenic franchise just doesn't give its teams the time to 'go' together? The kind of cohesion we're all talking about takes years - not months or a few periods of hockey here and there.

I'm on my phone so going back to find who said it is a pain, but someone said this is the way the NHL is.

And it's true. With cap and free agency, etc., you don't have years and years to gel. This is very largely the same team as last year. And it's not tremendously different from the year before.

Meanwhile, the Black Hawks win the Cup, jettison a sizeable portion of their team, including their starting goalie, and they're right back at it. Yes, they kept their core, but so have the Flyers.

No, the gel thing has some merit, but it is ultimately an excuse. It's quite average players that just don't go right together. The blame for this is probably equal parts players, coach, and gm, but I do think it's the case.

I'll throw this out to: one of the reasons they don't go together to form a successful team is that with small variations, we have a lot of the same player. What do you think?

[ruxpin]

Would you say that these two are inextricably linked? I mean, when we win, it's entertaining because we win, and so it becomes a lot easier to overlook lesser things like 'soft' or 'vanilla' or 'line juggling'.

I can't say that I've ever enjoyed watching a bottom of the pack Flyers squad. Until now, and only because of the promise of a better architect at the helm. Of course, Hextall's next move will give us more insight as to whether he's for real or not.

I don't think they are necessarily linked although that's probably often the case. I might be pointing to clear exceptions to disprove something generally true, but the Devils are a good example. They were successful but you'd gauge your eyes out watching them.

The jets aren't particularly good but they can be fun to watch. But in not emotionally attached to them either, so there's not the depressing "God, they suck" factor.

The Flyers teams in the early 90s were horrible, possibly worse than this crew, but I didn't have the problem I'm describing.

I think the two often go hand in hand but quite possibly because we often confuse or blur the two. Clearly a good team is more entertaining generally. But a bad team could be too.

I'm glad you're optimistic. Nothing wrong about it. But I just don't see the development being described. I'm hopeful for some of the prospects, but that keeps me following the team, reading articles, kibitzing on a message board, etc. It's not helping me stay mentally or emotionally focused on the games themselves, though.

[brelic]

And it's true. With cap and free agency, etc., you don't have years and years to gel. This is very largely the same team as last year. And it's not tremendously different from the year before.

Meanwhile, the Black Hawks win the Cup, jettison a sizeable portion of their team, including their starting goalie, and they're right back at it. Yes, they kept their core, but so have the Flyers.

 

Very good points. Why the heck did Chicago keep on ticking? It might be as you say that they found the 'right' guys, and no doubt that plays a part. I wonder if having the right guys in the right spots from the get-go in their core. 

 

I'll throw this out to: one of the reasons they don't go together to form a successful team is that with small variations, we have a lot of the same player. What do you think?

 

Yeah, I would agree that we have a lot of the same player. If there was a little more balance to the lines, maybe something would click. I really like what I'm seeing in Laughton - he brings hustle and a really aggressive dynamic to the 2nd line. He's noticeable every time he's on the ice, he's hitting people, driving to the net, cycling, good on possession. No points yet, but I like everything about his game. 

 

The Flyers lack aggressive puck pursuit players like Laughton.

[doom88]

Agreed on Laughton, again. He'd make me listen to offers for Couturier.

[Cheesesteak]

The only game I've enjoyed watching, a loss no less, was the one last week, the night after Hex chewed their ass off....I think vs. Blue Jackets