sidney crosby vs jaromir jagr

[JagerMeister]

Will crosby surpass jagr when his career is over.

And who was the better player during their peak?

[J0e Th0rnton]

Crosby has the potential to pass him. But no, he is not the better player. Crosby also lost some of the most likely best years to injury., so i am doubtful he will ever pass him.

[B21]

Will crosby surpass jagr when his career is over. Or is he already the better player

 

Tough call. Jagr was dominant in his prime like only a handful of players have been.

 

As for points, Jagr is at 1,775 (and counting) at age 42. If he retired now, he'd be 971 points ahead of Crosby who is 27.  Crosby would need to average about 65 points a season playing to age 42 - which I think is unlikely for him (playing that long).

 

Could Crosby average 100 points a season up to age 37?  Definitely.

 

It would be difficult to catch Jagr....but not impossible.

 

Keep in mind Jagr also has 3 seasons of no NHL stats while he was playing overseas.  Those were later in his career but would likely have been productive.

 

I'd have to give an edge to Crosby as far as who the better player is. Jagr's biggest point seasons were the wide open late 1980's and early 1990's and he had the benefit of playing those years with the likes of some all time great players.  Then there is the whole winger versus center part of the equation.

 

It's close - real close - but I'd take Crosby.

[flyercanuck]

Crosby has averaged about 90 points a season through his career. It would be hard for him to average 100 per up to the age of 37 when the likelyhood of missing games due to injury will increase. Healthy, he is certainly capable.

[B21]

Crosby has averaged about 90 points a season through his career. It would be hard for him to average 100 per up to the age of 37 when the likelyhood of missing games due to injury will increase. Healthy, he is certainly capable.

 

Ahh - the old selective math.

 

In seasons where he has been "healthy" (let's say at least 75 games played - of which there have been 5) he's averaged 108 points (107.6).  He was also on pace to pot over 100 points in the lock-out season. 

 

Health is the biggest issue - not points.  9 completed seasons in the books for him. 6 he played in at least 90% of the Pens games. 3 where he average less than 50% of the games played.

 

I can see him averaging 100 points up to age 37 if - and it's a big if - he stays relatively healthy.  I don't see him averaging 65 points until age 42.

[flyercanuck]

Ahh - the old selective math.

 

In seasons where he has been "healthy" (let's say at least 75 games played - of which there have been 5) he's averaged 108 points (107.6).  He was also on pace to pot over 100 points in the lock-out season. 

 

When they add up total points for his career, Crosby isn't going to have his lockout points pro-rated (ok he might)

 

Health is the biggest issue - not points.  9 completed seasons in the books for him. 6 he played in at least 90% of the Pens games. 3 where he average less than 50% of the games played.

 

Yes, I thought thats what I said "Healthy he is certainly capable"

 

I can see him averaging 100 points up to age 37 if - and it's a big if - he stays relatively healthy.  I don't see him averaging 65 points until age 42.

 

Again, healthy, sure. But if he's had injury issues in his 20s the odds are he isn't going to get healthier in his 30s unless he stops going into corners and the front of the net...wherein his points would likely decrease.

[B21]

 

Ahh - the old selective math.

 

In seasons where he has been "healthy" (let's say at least 75 games played - of which there have been 5) he's averaged 108 points (107.6).  He was also on pace to pot over 100 points in the lock-out season. 

 

When they add up total points for his career, Crosby isn't going to have his lockout points pro-rated (ok he might)

 

Health is the biggest issue - not points.  9 completed seasons in the books for him. 6 he played in at least 90% of the Pens games. 3 where he average less than 50% of the games played.

 

Yes, I thought thats what I said "Healthy he is certainly capable"

 

I can see him averaging 100 points up to age 37 if - and it's a big if - he stays relatively healthy.  I don't see him averaging 65 points until age 42.

 

Again, healthy, sure. But if he's had injury issues in his 20s the odds are he isn't going to get healthier in his 30s unless he stops going into corners and the front of the net...wherein his points would likely decrease.

 

 

No - the lockout points will not be prorated. My point was that - when healthy - he's easily a 100+ points per year guy.  I'm not going to penalize him for not getting 100 points in a lockout shortened season when he was on pace for 120. Your (selective) math used that shortened season point total to artificually bring down his average points per year.

 

Let's be honest - his "issues" are the concussions.  The only other injury that caused him to miss significant time was the broken jaw which is more "fluke" that "injury prone".

 

More than any other player he's adpet at avoiding the big hit; knowing where everone is on the ice at any given moment. You rarely see Crosby get legitimately crushed.

 

So the longer he goes without any concussion issues the better his chances. Hence - I/M/H/O - if he plays 90% of the Pens games to age 37 he will likely average 100+points per season putting him in range of Jagr.

[JagerMeister]

Throughout sidney crosbys whole career. He has had 100 ppg seasons.if not for injuries, sidney crosby would have ten 100 point seasons...I think he is the better player. As for career though..depends if sid can stay healthy and maybe win some more trophies

[J0e Th0rnton]

Tough call. Jagr was dominant in his prime like only a handful of players have been.

 

As for points, Jagr is at 1,775 (and counting) at age 42. If he retired now, he'd be 971 points ahead of Crosby who is 27.  Crosby would need to average about 65 points a season playing to age 42 - which I think is unlikely for him (playing that long).

 

Could Crosby average 100 points a season up to age 37?  Definitely.

 

It would be difficult to catch Jagr....but not impossible.

 

Keep in mind Jagr also has 3 seasons of no NHL stats while he was playing overseas.  Those were later in his career but would likely have been productive.

 

I'd have to give an edge to Crosby as far as who the better player is. Jagr's biggest point seasons were the wide open late 1980's and early 1990's and he had the benefit of playing those years with the likes of some all time great players.  Then there is the whole winger versus center part of the equation.

 

It's close - real close - but I'd take Crosby.

Jagr had some pretty damn good seasons with almost no help too though.

 

Yes he had Ron Francis and his 87 point in 98 and outscored Forsberg by 11 points, but then in 99 he just obliterated the scoring with 127 points, way way ahead of Selanne and Kariya, who were #2 and 3, during clutch and grab city.

 

Then he scored 96 points in 63 games, winning the Art Ross. He missed nearly 20 games and won the Art Ross! That is nuts.

 

In fact, looking at it, every year he won the Art Ross, Lemieux was out that year, except the comeback year, where he played half the season.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Ahh - the old selective math.

 

In seasons where he has been "healthy" (let's say at least 75 games played - of which there have been 5) he's averaged 108 points (107.6).  He was also on pace to pot over 100 points in the lock-out season. 

 

Health is the biggest issue - not points.  9 completed seasons in the books for him. 6 he played in at least 90% of the Pens games. 3 where he average less than 50% of the games played.

 

I can see him averaging 100 points up to age 37 if - and it's a big if - he stays relatively healthy.  I don't see him averaging 65 points until age 42.

I think that is a stretch. NOBODY produces at that level consistently after age 32. There are a few isolated cases of a superstar scoring here and there, but usually the wheels are rusty by then.

[jammer2]

  If you count the years that Jagr played in the KHL, the two seasons interuppted by lock outs etc...I don't think Crosby could catch him. As it sits now, it's highly unlikely that Crosby stays healthy long enough to make a legit run at Jagr's career totals.

 

  I do think however, although Jagr was a star in his own right, Lemieux made him more effective. Even though Malkin's stats go up when Crosby is hurt, I still believe Crosby helped Malkin's stats more than vice versa. Crosby when healthy is the more effective star, harder to defend because of his down low leg strength. Jagr relied more on space and skill, which gets taken away when the going gets tough in the playoffs. Crosby can create more on his own than Jagr ever could. Not taking anything away from Jagr, he was a superstar in his own right, I'd just take a healthy Crosby...he makes those around him better.

[flyercanuck]

@jammer2

 

Lets face it...Lemieux Jagr, Crosby Malkin, Toews Kane, Giroux Voracek...they all help each other with their stats.

[B21]

I think that is a stretch. NOBODY produces at that level consistently after age 32. There are a few isolated cases of a superstar scoring here and there, but usually the wheels are rusty by then.

 

No kidding. Which is why I said it would be difficult but not impossible.  Crosby would be among a handful of players who "could" pull it off.

[flyercanuck]

No kidding. Which is why I said it would be difficult but not impossible.  Crosby would be among a handful of players who "could" pull it off.

 

But only if he's healthy. 

[B21]

Jagr had some pretty damn good seasons with almost no help too though.

 

Yes he had Ron Francis and his 87 point in 98 and outscored Forsberg by 11 points, but then in 99 he just obliterated the scoring with 127 points, way way ahead of Selanne and Kariya, who were #2 and 3, during clutch and grab city.

 

Then he scored 96 points in 63 games, winning the Art Ross. He missed nearly 20 games and won the Art Ross! That is nuts.

 

In fact, looking at it, every year he won the Art Ross, Lemieux was out that year, except the comeback year, where he played half the season.

 

Kinda dismissive of Ron Francis, no?  Jagr's prime years coincide with some of Lemieux's best years and just about all of Francis' best years.

 

No doubt Jagr is an all-time great.  Pure scorer? Jagr.  All around? Crosby. It's really splitting hairs but I still go Crosby. 

 

Jagr also quit on his team. I've "forgiven" that as a fan and would love to have him back for the stretch run - but I can't see Crosby ever doing that.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Kinda dismissive of Ron Francis, no?  Jagr's prime years coincide with some of Lemieux's best years and just about all of Francis' best years.

 

No doubt Jagr is an all-time great.  Pure scorer? Jagr.  All around? Crosby. It's really splitting hairs but I still go Crosby. 

 

Jagr also quit on his team. I've "forgiven" that as a fan and would love to have him back for the stretch run - but I can't see Crosby ever doing that.

Not dismissive. Merely pointing out that when he had that 127 point season, he had nobody(Francis was gone), then he went and had another amazing season

[JagerMeister]

Kinda dismissive of Ron Francis, no?  Jagr's prime years coincide with some of Lemieux's best years and just about all of Francis' best years.

 

No doubt Jagr is an all-time great.  Pure scorer? Jagr.  All around? Crosby. It's really splitting hairs but I still go Crosby. 

 

Jagr also quit on his team. I've "forgiven" that as a fan and would love to have him back for the stretch run - but I can't see Crosby ever doing that.

I agree Sidney Crosby is a better player overall. Because he is more consistent then Jagr was in his prime. Those washington years hurt him bad. While Crosby was on pace for 100 points in every season he was injured, and all the seasons he wasnt injured he did have 100 point seasons, so that would be ten 100 point seasons overall.

I do need to adress something though, jagr's 149 point seasons, believe it or not, was not even his best season. Adjusted stats show that Jagrs 1998 seasons he has more points then his 1995 season. As well as 1995 still being a relatively high scoring era. it was in the late 90s when the "dead puck era" started

[Polaris922]

@flyercanuck

You really can't put Crosby-Malkin in your list of duets because unlike all of the others listed, these two are very rarely used on the same line. All the others stay or stayed together.

[flyercanuck]

@Polaris922

 

Actually, i can. Crosby and Malkin get plenty of points together on the pp. Plenty. But not even taking that into account, having two centres like that on one team takes a lot of pressure off each other. Put your checking line out against Giroux/Voracek or Towers/Kane etc but do you use it against Crosby OR Malkin?

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

Actually, i can. Crosby and Malkin get plenty of points together on the pp. Plenty. But not even taking that into account, having two centres like that on one team takes a lot of pressure off each other. Put your checking line out against Giroux/Voracek or Towers/Kane etc but do you use it against Crosby OR Malkin?

That's a far cry from skating together. Every great point scorer was a power play guy with the best players on his team. League wide. So that's really irrelevant.

Jagr skated with Lemieux and Francis a lot. Thats a hall of fane line. That's a far cry from Crosby-Dupuis-Kunitz.

I agree with your earlier comments Crosby won't last as long as Jagr, so even healthy he'll be hard pressed. I also agree Crosby makes Kunitz and Dupuis better than they'd be without him. But disagree with Malkin being a big part of Crosby's points. Especially in comparison to true scoring lines.

[flyercanuck]

That's a far cry from skating together. Every great point scorer was a power play guy with the best players on his team. League wide. So that's really irrelevant.

Jagr skated with Lemieux and Francis a lot. Thats a hall of fane line. That's a far cry from Crosby-Dupuis-Kunitz.

I agree with your earlier comments Crosby won't last as long as Jagr, so even healthy he'll be hard pressed. I also agree Crosby makes Kunitz and Dupuis better than they'd be without him. But disagree with Malkin being a big part of Crosby's points. Especially in comparison to true scoring lines.

 

 

Polaris....all I said was that they all help each other. Here's my post..."Lets face it...Lemieux Jagr, Crosby Malkin, Toews Kane, Giroux Voracek...they all help each other with their stats."

 

If you don't think Crosby and Malkin help each other out with points...that s your opinion...but it's wrong.

[Polaris922]

Polaris....all I said was that they all help each other. Here's my post..."Lets face it...Lemieux Jagr, Crosby Malkin, Toews Kane, Giroux Voracek...they all help each other with their stats."

If you don't think Crosby and Malkin help each other out with points...that s your opinion...but it's wrong.

I just disagree with your comparison. Do they OCCASIONALLY team up for a goal here and there, yes. But nowhere near at the level of the duets you have listed.

[B21]

Not dismissive. Merely pointing out that when he had that 127 point season, he had nobody(Francis was gone), then he went and had another amazing season

 

Like I said, Jagr is the better scorer.

 

Better overall player? Crosby I/M/H/O - by a smal small small margin.

[J0e Th0rnton]

Like I said, Jagr is the better scorer.

 

Better overall player? Crosby I/M/H/O - by a smal small small margin.

I wish we could have seen Jagr in his prime with the modified obstruction rules.

 

Back in his best days, he was baically piggybacking guys around.

[B21]

I wish we could have seen Jagr in his prime with the modified obstruction rules.

 

Back in his best days, he was baically piggybacking guys around.

 

Sometimes literally.  Strongest legs I have ever seen on an NHL player.