ScottM Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/21/nhl-to-focus-exclusively-on-expansion-bids-for-las-vegas-and-quebec-city/ At least for the moment, the NHL is sticking to its Monday deadline for expansion applications. Only two bids were received, that of Bill Foley for a Las Vegas team, and the Quebecor bid to bring back the Nordiques. In a statement released today, the league insists that the focus going forward will be on those two bids, and those two alone. "We now intend to focus exclusively on the two expansion applications that have been submitted in accordance with the previously announced process." With the current conference and division alignment, a two team expansion makes sense, as it allows the league to balance its conferences and divisions. However, as has been noted by many -- including some on this board -- Las Vegas and Quebec together makes for not only unbalanced conferences, but unbalanced divisions within those conferences. The most likely arrangement if all existing teams stand pat would be a nine team Atlantic Division, eight team Metropolitan and Pacific Divisions, and a seven team Central Division. Technically, it can work, as the league has even gone through periods during which it had an odd number of teams, but practically, it is quite messy. If expansion goes forward, and Las Vegas and Quebec are indeed the winning cities, the league will be forced to put Detroit or Columbus back into a bad situation in the west, or will have to relax their resistance to relocation and move an Eastern Conference team out of the Eastern Time Zone to facilitate a move to the Western Conference, if they want to avoid the awkward alignment. That begs two questions. First, who moves? Second, where do they move to? The Panthers or Hurricanes would seem to be prime candidates for relocation based on their lack of attendance, and the recipient cities would include many of the usual suspects. This is where Seattle and Kansas City re-enter the conversation. Even so, the same arena questions exist. That said, it may be easier to get an arena ready for a team without the pressing deadline that just passed. That was one definite advantage that Las Vegas and Quebec City had. One more question that comes to mind is that of the names of the teams. One, we likely already know. Quebecor has already suggested their team would be called the Nordiques. Foley has also suggested a potential team nickname. Foley attended West Point, and has said that he is partial to the nickname because of his army roots. For the moment, that appears to be the lay of the land. There is always the possibility of a change, but Las Vegas and Quebec are leading the pack today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J0e Th0rnton Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 http://prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2015/07/21/nhl-to-focus-exclusively-on-expansion-bids-for-las-vegas-and-quebec-city/ At least for the moment, the NHL is sticking to its Monday deadline for expansion applications. Only two bids were received, that of Bill Foley for a Las Vegas team, and the Quebecor bid to bring back the Nordiques. In a statement released today, the league insists that the focus going forward will be on those two bids, and those two alone. "We now intend to focus exclusively on the two expansion applications that have been submitted in accordance with the previously announced process." With the current conference and division alignment, a two team expansion makes sense, as it allows the league to balance its conferences and divisions. However, as has been noted by many -- including some on this board -- Las Vegas and Quebec together makes for not only unbalanced conferences, but unbalanced divisions within those conferences. The most likely arrangement if all existing teams stand pat would be a nine team Atlantic Division, eight team Metropolitan and Pacific Divisions, and a seven team Central Division. Technically, it can work, as the league has even gone through periods during which it had an odd number of teams, but practically, it is quite messy. If expansion goes forward, and Las Vegas and Quebec are indeed the winning cities, the league will be forced to put Detroit or Columbus back into a bad situation in the west, or will have to relax their resistance to relocation and move an Eastern Conference team out of the Eastern Time Zone to facilitate a move to the Western Conference, if they want to avoid the awkward alignment. That begs two questions. First, who moves? Second, where do they move to? The Panthers or Hurricanes would seem to be prime candidates for relocation based on their lack of attendance, and the recipient cities would include many of the usual suspects. This is where Seattle and Kansas City re-enter the conversation. Even so, the same arena questions exist. That said, it may be easier to get an arena ready for a team without the pressing deadline that just passed. That was one definite advantage that Las Vegas and Quebec City had. One more question that comes to mind is that of the names of the teams. One, we likely already know. Quebecor has already suggested their team would be called the Nordiques. Foley has also suggested a potential team nickname. Foley attended West Point, and has said that he is partial to the nickname because of his army roots. For the moment, that appears to be the lay of the land. There is always the possibility of a change, but Las Vegas and Quebec are leading the pack today.Well, in order for this to work, someone has to move back out west. Detroit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 Well, in order for this to work, someone has to move back out west. Detroit? One of two things has to happen. They switch Detroit or Columbus back to the west, or they relocate someone. I dealt with that in the second and third paragraphs. But yeah, this works a lot better if they do one of those things. Relocation seems easier simply because Detroit or Columbus would be furious over being moved back to the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 @ScottM@J0e Th0rnton NO. The Wings are not a Western team, have never been a Western team and should not be a Western team. The Wings carry enough water with the league that they should not be moved. NO. Columbus either. Realignment needs to be done, obviously if Quebec gets a team instead of two western franchises but we need to stop pretending that the league is demographically balanced by punishing an Eastern time zone team (and their fans) by having them play multiple time zones away. How about this, 8 divisions, two conferences, stop the East/West BS and just call them something else like football has AFC and NFC. DIVISION ONE Penguins Flyers Jackets Capitals DIVISION 2 Rangers Islanders Devils Sabres DIVISION THREE Bruins Canadiens Nordiques Maple Leafs DIVISION FOUR Ducks Kings vegas Coyotes DIVISION FIVE Panthers Lightning Predators Hurricanes DIVISION SIX Oilers Flames Canucks Sharks DIVISION SEVEN Wild Hawks Stars Avalanche DIVISION EIGHT Wings Senators Blues Jets Or something like that. Obviously teams can be adjusted to keep rivalries alive but the basic premise. THEN follow the NFL template and put a Western team in each conference and quit pretending that there are as many western teams as Eastern. AFC/NFC template, pick any four for a conferernce, I don't care, but split the time zones up equally. Like I said, this joke that the West has as many teams as the East has been stretched too thin already. Like I said, the divisions I propose have a million fallacies, breaking up the Leafs and Sens, breaking up the Sharks and Kings, there are ways to fix this all I am sure but for Gods sake lets stop pretending that all areas are created equal when it comes to fan bases and quit having the Wings play the Western teams Ad infinitum when we (and the Jackets) play in Eastern time zone cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 OR if you want to keep the eight team alignments, WESTERN San Jose, Vegas, Edmonton, Vancouver, Calgary, Kings, Coyotes, Ducks SOUTH Florida, Tampa, Carolina, Dallas, Nashville, St. Louis, Washington, Columbus EAST AND NORTH EAST MIDWEST Jets, Hawks, Blues, Avalanche, Wings, the two Pennsyvania teams and someone else EAST Everyone else Like I said, I know geography well enough to say that this is not a balanced by the continent league no matter what Bettman may wish for. Accept it, try a different model, drop the East/West BS and move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 I can't stand the unbalanced Conferences and Divisions. The teams in the West have a competitive advantage to making the playoffs. I'M LOOKING AT YOU CALGARY The Wings are not a Western team, have never been a Western team and should not be a Western team. They won their last four Cups in the Western Conference and, in fact, their only Conference Championships have come in the Western Conference, of which they were a member since it's founding in 93-94. I don't think they "belong" in the West, either, but it's certainly not correct to say they "have never been" a Western team. Hell, they were the second-Westest team in the Original Six... MIDWESTJets, Hawks, Blues, Avalanche, Wings, the two Pennsyvania teams and someone else I can say, wholeheartedly and without doubt or fear of contradiction that the City of Philadelphia has never been in the "midwest" and never will be. Neither, for that matter, is Colorado. But the question is moot because drop the East/West BS The whole point of the East/West (and, in fact the primary reason Detroit and Columbus wanted to "move East") is travel cost/time and television ratings. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 @yave1964 I don't really like the four team divisions, because I'm afraid it would increase the number of unworthy teams making the playoffs and the number of worthy teams that don't. I like the second idea better, but as @radoran points out, it does increase travel times, which the East/West thing, as ridiculous as it may be at times, does at least do something to reduce that. I'm completely with you in that I'm against moving Detroit or Columbus back to the west. I only mentioned it in the original post because that is a potential option. My preferred option would be to relocate a flagging Eastern Conference team. If we're going to add a dead weight franchise in Las Vegas, let's move another one to a place it can prosper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 @radoran Yeah well, like I said I wasn't thinking it through thoroughly just off the cuff but c'mon, the whole East/West thing has to end. Or maybe Bettman can move an Eastern team that support their ranchise to a Western hockey hotbed like Idaho. Or Albuquerque. Yeah, that's it, New Mexico is a hotbed for the game. Lets close the Capitals down and move them there to even it up. Sorry, I joke a lot but the East/West thing gets me going. It is time to simply admit that some areas are not hockey areas (The fools!) and concentrate on the areas that are. Hell, I would rather have Quebec and Hamilton get teams than Vegas even. Go where the fans are. This isn't field of dreams where if you build it they will come, Atlanta (twice) and Phoenix are enough to prove that and so does Sunrise Florida. There are areas that if the cost was not prohibitive to start up would kill it and return the investment ten fold. Yes, the Wings won cups in the Western Conference but they are still in the Eastern time zone and it does not take away from the absurdity of the situation. Now in the days of DVR I can watch Western games in the morning if I choose but it is still ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted July 21, 2015 Author Share Posted July 21, 2015 @yave1964 Don't give Bettman any ideas about Albuquerque... He might just take you up on that... I'd really like to see Florida or Carolina go to Seattle or Kansas City. Maybe without an expansion fee and the time to get an arena deal in place without having a deadline breathing down an owner's neck would help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 21, 2015 Share Posted July 21, 2015 This isn't field of dreams where if you build it they will come, Atlanta (twice) and Phoenix are enough to prove that and so does Sunrise Florida.Right, but there's also Los Angeles, Anaheim, Tampa, San Jose, and Nashville on the flip side.Heck, Philly wasn't exactly a guarantee in 1967.Hockey failed in Denver once. Minnesota lost a team. Winnipeg. Quebec.Atlanta is a terrible pro sports town, but the Thrashers were some of the most inept management I have ever seen in a hockey club and I'm a Flyers fan. Phoenix is likewise "not a real city". Like Atlanta, it sprawls everywhere and is full of people who drive everywhere unless it is 20 minutes away. they are front running fans and see no need to back a winner (and the NHL is still drawing in the 10000s there which is not too shabby for habitual losers.I think Vegas is a terrible, terrible mistake. They are going to have to keep some "Canadian farmboys" in a male convent out there. (I'm waiting for them to name Mike Richards captain with Jarrett Stoll an A )And I would rather see them move Florida to Quebec than put an expansion team there. Quebec would get their Nordiques back almost as they left them (I hope they pull some Shenanigans to let Seattle get a late bid and move Florida to Quebec).Look, the Panthers have blown for so long, the fans have forgotten about them. They did draw crowds. They had that stupid rat thing. They won't know they have a good team for a while. Quebec would appreciate it now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 @yave1964 Don't give Bettman any ideas about Albuquerque... He might just take you up on that... I'd really like to see Florida or Carolina go to Seattle or Kansas City. Maybe without an expansion fee and the time to get an arena deal in place without having a deadline breathing down an owner's neck would help. @radoran So if this happens i expect another expansion draft. I'd love to lose Mcdud and VLC in the draft....but i would not want to lose any of the important pieces the Flyers have assembled for their rebuild. So how many players would they be able to protect if this goes down. And would some be able to be hidden if need be in the AHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I'd love to lose Mcdud and VLC in the draft I'd love to lose them in a forest. What kind of expansion team starts out drafting a 35-year-old, declined 2nd line center and an overpaid third pair defenseman? I mean, if you're drafting those guys, shouldn't you just have not bothered starting a team in the first place? And would some be able to be hidden if need be in the AHL. IIRC, it is player on NHL contracts? The rules, of course, can always change. This is the NHL we're talking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 What kind of expansion team starts out drafting a 35-year-old, declined 2nd line center and an overpaid third pair defenseman? You're not helping my cause with this....i'm afraid they've seen this now and you've already ruined my plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hatrik98 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 NHL accepting a Vegas Bid ??? Really??Chalk another one up for a Bettman moronic move. There is a reason there is not one professional franchise (excluding minor league scrubs) in Vegas. NHL tried to put one Team in the desert and that has been a **** storm since they've come into the league. Now they want to add another? Vegas is a huge tourist attraction and a high percentage of that is for gambling and seeing the shows. Where is the hockey base going to come from? I would rather of seen it going to Seattle or even another Canadian City. Nice work Bettman. This could possibly be one of your dumbest moves ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Florida Panthers ---> Quebec NordiquesArizona Coyotes ---> Las Vegas Craps (the Bettman experiment)Carolina Hurricanes ---> Seattle Stickhandlers Oh look! The conferences balance, and three perennial weak/deadweight franchises have new homes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 I would rather of seen it going to Seattle or even another Canadian City. Nice work Bettman. This could possibly be one of your dumbest moves ever. You do have to have people in those other cities that would pony up the bucks to get the team. Seattle didn't make a bid - I hold out hope they will move a team there or do a switcheroo with Florida moving to Quebec and Seattle getting an expansion. And not "other Canadian City" made a bid. For that matter, what "other Canadian city"? Quebec is in. That's the top eight Canadian cities. Hamilton? We've been down that road - neither Tronno nor Buffalo approve Hamilton. Moreover, Hamilton's metro area is 720K. Buffalo is half a million more than that without even counting crossover from the Niagara peninsula. Hamilton isn't even as big as Syracuse, NY (and is much smaller than Rochester, NY and Harrisburg, PA) and is on par with places like Boise, Idaho and South Bend, Indiana. Kitchener? London? Not even half a million people in either metro. With Quebec in - and barring another team in Tronno - Canada is tapped out for possible NHL expansion. Really, the only other option is a second team in Tronno - and it just doesn't look like the Leafs would ever allow that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 @ScottM@J0e Th0rntonNO. The Wings are not a Western team, have never been a Western team and should not be a Western team. The Wings carry enough water with the league that they should not be moved. NO. Columbus either.Realignment needs to be done, obviously if Quebec gets a team instead of two western franchises but we need to stop pretending that the league is demographically balanced by punishing an Eastern time zone team (and their fans) by having them play multiple time zones away. Just throwing this out there as an idea, but what if the NHL had THREE conferences? Eastern, Central, and Western. Teams like Detroit, Chicago, Toronto, etc. could be in the Central conference. You could have two divisions per conference (for a total of six). The playoffs would shake out in a very interesting fashion, because your Cup final opponent could be from either of the other two conferences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Just throwing this out there as an idea, but what if the NHL had THREE conferences? Eastern, Central, and Western. Teams like Detroit, Chicago, Toronto, etc. could be in the Central conference. You could have two divisions per conference (for a total of six). The playoffs would shake out in a very interesting fashion, because your Cup final opponent could be from either of the other two conferences. How do you make the playoffs work with three conferences? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teenagemutantninjahertl Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 Florida Panthers ---> Quebec NordiquesArizona Coyotes ---> Las Vegas Craps (the Bettman experiment)Carolina Hurricanes ---> Seattle Stickhandlers Oh look! The conferences balance, and three perennial weak/deadweight franchises have new homes. Except no on is moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 How do you make the playoffs work with three conferences? They toyed with the three conference idea a couple of years ago and scrapped it when the idea was mocked by everyone. The playoff issue was why the idea was panned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WordsOfWisdom Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 How do you make the playoffs work with three conferences? I'm working on it. Assuming a 30 team league with 10 teams per conference and 5 teams per division........ Each division winner gets a playoff spot. (That's 6 spots total.)The remaining 10 spots could go based on points. (Ranking each team within its own conference.) Top 5 teams in each conference make the playoffs with 1 wildcard team that can come from any conference.Within the playoffs, teams will "crossover" to play opponents from other conferences based on overall league points. (#1 vs #4, #2 vs #3 type of thing).Cup final could be East vs West, East vs Central, Central vs West, East vs East, West vs West, or Central vs Central (depending on who gets there). Or perhaps it could be arranged in such a way that you have to win out your own conference first. What do you think so far? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 They toyed with the three conference idea a couple of years ago and scrapped it when the idea was mocked by everyone. The playoff issue was why the idea was panned.What do you think so far? I just don't see how it works with three "Conference" winners. If we wanted to do the MLB route of two "national" conferences with each having an East/West division, I could see that easier... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yave1964 Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 My suggestion is along the lines of football again, instead of East/West go National and American conferences or whatever name you want. Each conference with a Western division, again, like football. No reason it could not work. With zero expansion it is ideal, six divisions of five teams each three per conference. Very, very manageable. Someone needs to buy Bettman a map. And while football is lacking in every single area in comparision to football, the one exception is conference management. Hell, for years they had Atlanta in the West and people just lived with it. I understand that it is one thing when you play once per week and another entirely when you play three a week. But this should be the easiest thing in the world to fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScottM Posted July 22, 2015 Author Share Posted July 22, 2015 Someone needs to buy Bettman a map. I volunteer if we can get someone to volunteer to teach him how to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted July 22, 2015 Share Posted July 22, 2015 My suggestion is along the lines of football again, instead of East/West go National and American conferences or whatever name you want. Each conference with a Western division, again, like football. No reason it could not work. With zero expansion it is ideal, six divisions of five teams each three per conference. Very, very manageable. Someone needs to buy Bettman a map. And while football is lacking in every single area in comparision to football, the one exception is conference management. Hell, for years they had Atlanta in the West and people just lived with it. I understand that it is one thing when you play once per week and another entirely when you play three a week. But this should be the easiest thing in the world to fix. Dallas is STILL in the "East" - and woe be unto the Commissioner who attempts to move them. NHL/Two Conferences/Four Divisions could work after expansion, too:AMPERSAND CONFERENCEQUEEBS & DWEEBSMontrealOttawaQuebecBostonBIG CITIES & BUFFALOTronnoIslandersBuffaloDevilsWINGS & THINGSDetroitMinnesotaChicagoSt. LouisCANUCKS & SUCHVancouverWinnipegCalgaryEdmonton AMERICAN LEAGUELIBERTYPhiladelphiaRangersNew JerseyPittsburghJUSTICEColumbusNashvilleDallasVegasFREEDOMWashingtonCarolinaFloridaTampa BayGULLYFORNYALos AngelesAnaheimSeattle ArizonaSan Jose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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