(2nd) greatest player in Edmonton Oiler history

[yave1964]

  (Ryan Smyth.

Lets get down to it, Edmonton Oilers greatest player is unquestionable Wayne Gretzky, period, end of discussion. so following advice for several teams such as this, I list the candidates for the SECOND best player in team history. sow without further Adieu:

 

PAUL COFFEY: a brilliant offensive force of nature from the back end, he finished in Edmonton with 209 goals and 669 points in only 532 games, he scored over 100 points in Edmonton three times. He won back to back Norris trophies and was a two time first team all star, three times on the second team. More a force of nature from the back end than anything else.

 

 GLENN ANDERSON: Third all time with 417 goals in team history and he scored 906 points in Edmonton. A four time all Star as a rugged winger.

 

JARRI KURRI: brilliant winger scored 474 goals, and 1043 points, second only to Wayne in Oiler history in only 754 games. Led the league once in goals scored with 68, six times scored 100 points, won a Bing, two time first team and three time second team all star. Speed to burn.

 

RYAN SMYTH: second ALL TIME in games played for Edmonton with 971, 5th in goals, 6th in points, not shabby totals considering the talent or lack thereof that he had around him during his prime. A true class act even if his numbers do not quite measure up.

 

GRANT FUHR: The goalie of the great Oilers dynasty, he played 423 games with a club record 226 victories. Led the league in wins twice, was a six time all star in Edmonton, and won a Vezina and a Jennings as well as four Stanley Cups.

 

MARK MESSIER: 1034 CAREER points ranks 3rd all time, he had 392 goals and second all time in team history 642 assists.The ultimate warrior and competitor, he won a Smythe in the first year that the Oilers won a cup, 2 Harts as league MVP, 4 time first team all star and appeared in 9 all star games wearing an Oilers sweater. Won five cups including one carrying the team after Gretzky had moved on to the Kings and is 4th all time in team history in penalty minutes as well.

 

  Others that I considered were the underrated and largely forgotten Bill Ranford, Kevin Lowe who leads the team in games played and maybe Doug Weight but overall I think I got it right. Happy voting.

 

WHO AM I? As Chico Resch was to Battlin' Billy this guy was to Grant Fuhr.

 

 

 

 

[JR Ewing]

I'll copy/paste what I wrote about Messier a few months ago:

 

1. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player in hockey while he played?

Messier’s career overlapped players like Gretzky and Lemieux. No

2. Was he ever commonly thought of as the best player at his position while he played?

Yes. Messier was named as the top LW two times before his move to centre in 1984, and then top centre in 1990 and ‘92. (1)

3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

Yes, many many times. (2)

4. Did the player ever lead the league in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

No, he did not. (2)

5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?

Messier had impact on 6 Cup winners, a Cup runner-up, and dragged stripped-down Oilers teams to the Conference Finals two times. An emphatic yes. (3)

6. Was he a key member of a Stanley Cup winner?

Messier was a key member of 6 Cup winners. (4)

7. Was he ever a team Captain?

Messier was Captain of three different teams. (5)

8. Was he ever team Captain of a Stanley Cup winner?

Messier was Captain of 2 different Cup winning teams, and is the only man to hold this distinction. (6)

9. Did many regard him to be an excellent defensive player?

You know how, after 10 or 11 years in the NHL and his offense was fading, Steve Yzerman became a hell of a defensive centre? Mark Messier was excellent offensively AND defensively at the same time from a young age. He was thrown over the boards and given the job of shutting down Bryan Trottier in the Stanley Cup Finals. And did it. Messier faded in this department when he became old and was hanging around too long, but he spent the majority of his career as one hell of a two-way hockey player. Played hard at both ends, minded his positioning, and then absolutely punished opposing players. (7)

10. Did many regard his physical play/hitting to be an intimidating factor? (NOTE: We're not looking for pests here)

Messier intimidated opposing players and even teammates, if he felt they were standing in the way of victory. He left a Howe-esque trail of injuries from opposing players, and once during an intermission in the Finals against Philly, grabbed Kent Nilsson (his own teammate) by the throat and told him to quit ****** around out there. An all-timer in this category. (8)

11. Did he play a lot/well after he passed his prime?

Messier was extremely durable. and played until he was 43 years old, still able to score 50 Adjusted Points in his final year. (9)

12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?

Messier was named a 1st AS 4 times and a 2nd AS once. (10)

13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF?

All of the players with similar statistics to Messier are in the HOF. (11)

14. Did he win a Hart, Lindsay, Norris or Vezina Trophy? (NOTE for goalies: prior to 1982, use 1st All-Star selections)

Messier won Hart and Lindsay Trophies in 1990 and 1992. (12)

15. Did he win a Conn Smythe Trophy?

Messier the Conn Smythe in 1984 (13)

16. Is there any evidence to suggest (due to circumstances beyond his control) that he was significantly better than is indicated by his statistics? (NOTE: We're looking for things like time missed due to global conflict, world politics, league wars, etc... NOT INJURY!)

I don’t think so. (13)

17. Did the player bring bring positive and intense focus on the game of hockey?

Messier is one of the few players who can get a point here, and more than a bit of it is down to his Cup win in 1994, and his becoming a cult hero during his days a New York Ranger, and is considered to be one of the greatest leaders in the history of professional sports. This is a major deal. (14)

18. Was the player innovative, inspire a new style of play, or cause the league to change any of its rules as a result of the way he played?

Great player, but I don’t think he should get a point here.

Mark Messier was everything that we were told Eric Lindros would be. He is what every single club that drafts a big centre hopes their kid will become. This man stole MVP awards, both regular season and playoff, from the likes of Wayne Gretzky and Mario Lemieux.

[yave1964]

@JR Ewing

 

I had to vote Messier as well, but let me tell ya, Edmonton has a heck of list of talented players which is the envy of nearly any post expansion team in the league. I would even argue that their all time list (including Gretzky) is better than the all time team from Toronto going back to the beginning of the Leafs franchise and the Rangers would be hard pushed. Just a model franchise that fell on hard times that now seems ready to turn it around. It will be interesting to see where mcDavid and Hall endup on the list when it is all said and done.

[JR Ewing]

@JR Ewing

 

I had to vote Messier as well, but let me tell ya, Edmonton has a heck of list of talented players which is the envy of nearly any post expansion team in the league. I would even argue that their all time list (including Gretzky) is better than the all time team from Toronto going back to the beginning of the Leafs franchise and the Rangers would be hard pushed. Just a model franchise that fell on hard times that now seems ready to turn it around. It will be interesting to see where mcDavid and Hall endup on the list when it is all said and done.

 

Yeah, there was a wealth of riches for the first 10 years of the franchise's history, and not just because of Gretzky.

 

Hall and McDavid? Who the hell knows? Hall is currently an elite offensive LW as it is, and if he can round out his game a little bit, his value will only rise. McDavid has the pedigree to become a dominant player, but all it takes is one unfortunate injury, and you're just a guy who could-have-been.

 

BTW - Good to see Ryan Smyth added to the list. Particularly, when the number are adjusted for era, he was a terrific lifetime contributor.

[ScottM]

I went with Kurri. I think everyone here probably knows that I'm not as sold on Messier as most are, but I'm very sold on Kurri. He had a great 200 foot game. He was a 70 goal scorer (which only eight players have ever done) once, and his 68 goals in 1985-86 led the league. He was a better scorer than playmaker, but he could dish the puck out as well, with three top-10 finishes in assists. He also led the NHL in playoff goals on four occasions. Gretzky would have had massive numbers anyway, but I believe playing on a line with Kurri helped boost them a bit. The reverse is true as well, but I think the two of them were the perfect match for each other. Kurri was also skilled in the defensive end, finishing top-five in Selke voting four times.

 

Andy Moog in the photo.

[yave1964]

@ScottM

Yep to Moog. He seemed to always play half the regular season and then hit the bench as soon as the postseason started. He had a nice run with Boston after leaving Fuhr's shadow.

[ruxpin]

I believe playing on a line with Kurri helped boost them a bit.

 

I would very much argue the other way around.  I wonder about Kurri without Gretzky, actually.  Still good, but not like they were.

[ruxpin]

This is Mark Messier by a country mile.   Others are very good players in their own right, but not in Messier territory.

 

And Grant Fuhr might be one of the most overrated Cup-winning goalies of all time.  He got the job done, obviously, but I think you could have inserted numerous other goalies into the same spot and have ultimately gotten pretty similar results.

[ScottM]

I would very much argue the other way around.  I wonder about Kurri without Gretzky, actually.  Still good, but not like they were.

 

I too think Kurri got a big boost from Gretzky. Like I said, I think they were the perfect pair. I really believe it went both ways. I don't think either of them could have had a better suited linemate, in all honesty.

[JR Ewing]

re: Kurri/Gretzky boost...

Kurri was the goal scoring leader one time, while playing with Gretzky. Full respect for that. Gretzky led the NhL in assists 16 times (13 in a row) with lots of other guys not named Kurri. There is no doubt as to who needed who more.

[yave1964]

re: Kurri/Gretzky boost...

Kurri was the goal scoring leader one time, while playing with Gretzky. Full respect for that. Gretzky led the NhL in assists 16 times (13 in a row) with lots of other guys not named Kurri. There is no doubt as to who needed who more.

Agreed, but in Kurri's case IMHO even if he played most of his career for the Bruins or whoever he would be a HOFer, Kurri was elite. I agree with Messier as the second best behind Gretzky, and place Kurri third.

The one who I feel would be largely forgotten if he played for anyone other than the Oilers is Glenn Anderson. A good player, but his numbers were seriously overinflated by his linemates and teams that eh played for. Again, I think he was good to very good, I have seen him bashed by some fans as an awful player and to that I disagree, I just do not see him as Hall worthy.

[ScottM]

I apparently really did a bad job expressing my thoughts earlier. If I at all gave the impression that Gretzky wasn't a major boost to Kurri, that wasn't my intent. I'll just say that my vote goes to Kurri and leave it at that lest I cause anymore confusion.

[ruxpin]

I apparently really did a bad job expressing my thoughts earlier. If I at all gave the impression that Gretzky wasn't a major boost to Kurri, that wasn't my intent. I'll just say that my vote goes to Kurri and leave it at that lest I cause anymore confusion.

LOL it's all good. At least you didn't say Kurri made Fuhr better. Because that would be weird.

[FD19372]

I probably would have voted for Messier as the Oilers best all-time player. He was a better all-around player than Gretzky, and one of the most clutch players ever to play the game. He would score and beat down his opponents with physical play all in the same shift  You can't argue Gretzky was their best statistical player (with 200+ points in a season 4 times), but Messier was a slightly better leader and captain, which makes him a hair better overall than the Great One, IMHO. 

[ruxpin]

I probably would have voted for Messier as the Oilers best all-time player. He was a better all-around player than Gretzky, and one of the most clutch players ever to play the game. He would score and beat down his opponents with physical play all in the same shift  You can't argue Gretzky was their best statistical player (with 200+ points in a season 4 times), but Messier was a slightly better leader and captain, which makes him a hair better overall than the Great One, IMHO. 

 

Wow, there's a pretty gutsy statement.  Kudos.  Rain of fire begins in 4...3....2...1...

[FD19372]

Wow, there's a pretty gutsy statement.  Kudos.  Rain of fire begins in 4...3....2...1...

Yeah, I can feel the hatred starting. Armed Canadian mounties will probably be at my door any minute now for saying that. I'll be locking myself in a panic room after I type this.

[JagerMeister]

@FD19372 Does the intangibles one possesses, truly outweigh the greatest offensive results one could have in the history of the game?

[JR Ewing]

Well... I sincerely doubt that Messier's intangibles make up for the mountain of offense between himself and Gretzky, but I'm hardly offended by the opinion. Messier is one of the greatest players in the history of the NHL, and there's always bound to be folks that feel like this.

[FD19372]

@FD19372 Does the intangibles one possesses, truly outweigh the greatest offensive results one could have in the history of the game?

If your goal is your team winning Stanley Cups, then yes. Messier won 2 more than Gretzky.

[JagerMeister]

@FD19372 Maybe because Gretzkys teams post Edmonton were simply not good enough to win a cup? Interchange their situations and do you truly believe Messier still wins a cup in LA? Give me actual offensive results over some thing that's almost impossible to measure.

[FD19372]

@FD19372 Maybe because Gretzkys teams post Edmonton were simply not good enough to win a cup? Interchange their situations and do you truly believe Messier still wins a cup in LA? Give me actual offensive results over some thing that's almost impossible to measure.

I think LA would have been more likely to win the Cup with Messier, although he wouldn't have put as many butts in the seats as did the Great One. You're right that actual offensive results are much easier to measure than intangibles, but I think intangibles (aka things that are almost impossible to measure) mean just as much, particularly in the playoffs.

[ScottM]

I probably would have voted for Messier as the Oilers best all-time player. He was a better all-around player than Gretzky, and one of the most clutch players ever to play the game. He would score and beat down his opponents with physical play all in the same shift  You can't argue Gretzky was their best statistical player (with 200+ points in a season 4 times), but Messier was a slightly better leader and captain, which makes him a hair better overall than the Great One, IMHO. 

 

This makes me have to ask this question: Where would you rank Mess on a list of all-time players? Gretzky is widely considered the best player in history because of his tenure with the Oilers. Does this mean you'd rank Mess higher than Gretzky on an all-time players list?

[WingNut722]

I had a friend a while back (himself a Ranger fan) who used to go around saying that Wayne Gretsky never won the Stanley Cup without Mark Messier's help, then Messier won his own in 1994.  Maybe that's a little too cavalier of a statement, but here's to ya, Todd!  

[FD19372]

This makes me have to ask this question: Where would you rank Mess on a list of all-time players? Gretzky is widely considered the best player in history because of his tenure with the Oilers. Does this mean you'd rank Mess higher than Gretzky on an all-time players list?

I think Gretzky is ranked higher simply because people are in love with numbers. My top 5 all-time best (skaters) are Gordie Howe, Mario Lemieux, Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr or Maurice Richard.

[ScottM]

I think Gretzky is ranked higher simply because people are in love with numbers. My top 5 all-time best (skaters) are Gordie Howe, Mario Lemieux, Mark Messier, Wayne Gretzky, Bobby Orr.

 

I rank Orr at the top of my list instead of Gretzky, but honestly, it's hard not to love the numbers with Gretzky. He has nearly every major scoring record in league history. Sure, his numbers were inflated somewhat by the era he played in, but if he had played in today's league, he'd still have a ton of records. The huge numbers are a reflection of the huge talent.

 

As for Messier, yes, he was a great leader with the Oilers and Rangers, but he was a cancer for the Canucks. I think that sometimes gets lost in the worship of his leadership. I'm playing devil's advocate there to a degree, but the concept cuts both ways.