Coots still 2c and b schenn benched manning in

[fanaticV3.0]

Move him to wing;)

 

Don't worry, that is exactly what the coach will do, right after he brings him back from a game in the press box.

[fanaticV3.0]

I don't get the Couturier hate. The guy has been pigeonholed into a checking role his entire career and now that he's getting a chance to man the 2nd line, people still complain. Let him get accustomed to being in an offensive role. The guy has literally been programmed to start the majority of his starts in the defensive zone, so it's going to take time to change the defensive mentality to an offensive mentality. So far, he's looked pretty damned good. He gets the Hakstol system and that's going to be huge going forward. Get him some wingers who also understand the system and he could really take off. My only questioning right now of Hakstol is why he moved Schenn off of Couturier's right side. Those two had chemistry together and they started to turn a corner. First thing I would have done is put the two of them back together again and see what happens. 

 

He hasn't been pigeonholed,  he's been put exactly where he belongs. He is a good third line center and our best penalty killer, but he's not anything  other than that. People who don't like him because he doesn't score enough are judging him based on a skill that he doesn't have. They look at him as a bust  when he's just not the kind of player they thought he was.

[brelic]

He hasn't been pigeonholed,  he's been put exactly where he belongs. He is a good third line center and our best penalty killer, but he's not anything  other than that. People who don't like him because he doesn't score enough are judging him based on a skill that he doesn't have. They look at him as a bust  when he's just not the kind of player they thought he was.

 

That's what I've been trying to say, just not as succinctly as you have.

 

I admit that, at 23, he's not a finished product. But with 300 NHL games, in his 5th NHL season, it would be very very surprising if he all of a sudden discovered this hidden offensive game. It's just not there. He might hit 50 points, but that will probably be his peak. Which is awesome. That has a ton of value to this team. It's harder to find a Couturier than a Brayden Schenn.

[murraycraven]

That's what I've been trying to say, just not as succinctly as you have.

 

I admit that, at 23, he's not a finished product. But with 300 NHL games, in his 5th NHL season, it would be very very surprising if he all of a sudden discovered this hidden offensive game. It's just not there. He might hit 50 points, but that will probably be his peak. Which is awesome. That has a ton of value to this team. It's harder to find a Couturier than a Brayden Schenn.

 

 

this is my point... the kid can flat out play defense and even **if** he is a 3rd line center that is not a bad thing.  He is a good player.   Hell, if he hits 50 points that is pretty darn good on this Team.  Jake is getting paid double that contract for 10 more points a year.

[icehole]

this is my point... the kid can flat out play defense and even **if** he is a 3rd line center that is not a bad thing. He is a good player. Hell, if he hits 50 points that is pretty darn good on this Team. Jake is getting paid double that contract for 10 more points a year.

If they put him back on the third line and make him the shut-down guy and the best pk guy, I wont rip on him for not scoring more. Third line players arent meant to be 40 plus point guys.

My problem is that he is the #11 pick. Ok, #11 isnt top tier, but its a good pick...I expected more. Ok, he didnt meet my expectations so I'm good with him being a 3rd line center. Ive never heard so much love for a 3rd line center by fans and anylists. I believe you can get 3rd line centers on 1-3 year deals for $1-$3 mill per. You dont see too many 3rd line centers that make what he will make (jordan staal is the exception). What teams are paying their 3rd liners that much and are good teams (I seriously dont know).

It's not his fault, but if jonesy tells me how great he is and the team gives him a big deal, but he is only good enough to be a third liner, I am irritated by that.

[icehole]

Would Couturier be a good defensman?

[icehole]

I said 11th pick...i meant 8th

[mojo1917]

Would Couturier be a good defensman?

I don't think he skates well enough to play D...although i do think his skating has improved from 2 years ago.

[brelic]

I said 11th pick...i meant 8th

 

Objectively speaking, there are only 5 players from his draft class with more career points than Couturier - RNH, Landeskog, Huberdeau (#1, 2, 3 in the draft) and Saad (2nd rounder), and Palat (7th rounder).

 

Of course, Couturier has also played the most NHL games in his entire draft class, and there are a bunch of guys with better PPG ratios than he, like Strome, Zibanejad, Scheifele, Hamilton, Jenner, Kucherov, Trochek, Gaudreau, Shaw.

 

So he probably will never live up to the offensive expectations, but that's ok. He has excellent strengths and every team needs a guy with his skillset. There are many others I would trade long before him.

[murraycraven]

@Ice

I don't disagree but I think this is the year to figure out Couts. At worst he is a shutdown center that is suited for the 3rd line and I am fine with that. At best he is a 50 point second center. I tend tO think he is the former and every good team needs that type of player.

Any additional offense is gravy right now. He is still a very good player in this league even I'd the Flyer a over value him.

[brelic]

He is still a very good player in this league even I'd the Flyer a over value him.

 

He definitely has a lot of expectations on his shoulders. 

 

Looking back on past #8s, though, is it fair?

 

Couturier, 299 GP, 121 pts.

 

Burmistrov (214 GP, 63 pts), Glennie (1 career NHL game), Boedker (401 GP, 187 pts), Hamill (20 GP, 4 pts), Mueller (297 GP, 160 pts - he's not even in the NHL anymore), Setoguchi (471 GP, 249 pts), Picard (67 GP, 2 pts).

 

I don't know, Couturier is just about one of the best #8 overall picks in the last 12 years. The expectations are probably inflated because of his junior production.

[King Knut]

Coots has been garbage this year. Yes, he's played well defensively, but he should be doing more offensively

Once again, if anyone else was scoring consistently (especially even strength) I'd be more inclined to agree. As things are I see the situation of Cooter's lack of production as being sourced by a different problem.

Simmons and Jake have shown they can score but nether are. All the forwards are struggling. G is producing more now, but not a ton and he's sorta it.

I know folks don't agree, but cooter not scoring just doesn't seem like a cooter problem to me at this point.

And let's not forget, the losing streak began when he got hurt. They finally win again when he comes back. Maybe he's not 2C. But he's something positive and I think it's significant.

[King Knut]

He definitely has a lot of expectations on his shoulders.

Looking back on past #8s, though, is it fair?

Couturier, 299 GP, 121 pts.

Burmistrov (214 GP, 63 pts), Glennie (1 career NHL game), Boedker (401 GP, 187 pts), Hamill (20 GP, 4 pts), Mueller (297 GP, 160 pts - he's not even in the NHL anymore), Setoguchi (471 GP, 249 pts), Picard (67 GP, 2 pts).

I don't know, Couturier is just about one of the best #8 overall picks in the last 12 years. The expectations are probably inflated because of his junior production.

People seem to think scoring is a players only value. This isn't fantasy. His game is so strong in so many ways. So much stronger and more beneficial in most ways than most players who can out score him.

That said I still contend that he can produce offensively as we want. The system needs time to gel and probably needs another player or two.

But Cooter is one of this team's most valuable assets and any GM in this league would most likely agree with me.

Dangle him for a trade and watch the teamsswarm like great whites to chum.

He's a good damn player with a ton of responsibility and He's on a kinda crappy team.

Trade him and he'll join the likes of Williams, Sharp But probably more so.

[King Knut]

If they put him back on the third line and make him the shut-down guy and the best pk guy, I wont rip on him for not scoring more. Third line players arent meant to be 40 plus point guys.

My problem is that he is the #11 pick. Ok, #11 isnt top tier, but its a good pick...I expected more. Ok, he didnt meet my expectations so I'm good with him being a 3rd line center. Ive never heard so much love for a 3rd line center by fans and anylists. I believe you can get 3rd line centers on 1-3 year deals for $1-$3 mill per. You dont see too many 3rd line centers that make what he will make (jordan staal is the exception). What teams are paying their 3rd liners that much and are good teams (I seriously dont know).

It's not his fault, but if jonesy tells me how great he is and the team gives him a big deal, but he is only good enough to be a third liner, I am irritated by that.

Keep him where he is. Jonesy isn't wrong. The whole team sucks right now. Give them time to figure it out. If we want individuals to excel skill wise now, we're chasing the wrong goal in improving the team.

We want the whole team to function like a unit. Coots is key to that. He has shown that many times. He sees the ice extremely well. He has what they need. The whole team needs to put the pieces together.

[icehole]

Keep him where he is. Jonesy isn't wrong. The whole team sucks right now. Give them time to figure it out. If we want individuals to excel skill wise now, we're chasing the wrong goal in improving the team.

We want the whole team to function like a unit. Coots is key to that. He has shown that many times. He sees the ice extremely well. He has what they need. The whole team needs to put the pieces together.

I cant argue with you that the team isn't playing well. Somehow Schenn (the guy that many want dealt, the guy that was scratched despite being one of the top scorers) had 8 shots, 5 chances, and 3 hits the other night. So it is possible to be seen even if your team is bad.

Can you explain how he sees the ice so well...I dont understand what that means. Also, what does he have that they need?

[mojo1917]

Somehow Schenn (the guy that many want dealt, the guy that was scratched despite being one of the top scorers) had 8 shots, 5 chances, and 3 hits the other night.

 

funny that that performance came after he was scratched.. that Schenn kid shows flashes of quality but doesn't sustain it. According to an article i read was just taking his stick for a skate pretty often when shitty play started.

 

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=72544&blogger_id=45

 

here's the article so you don't think i'm making it up.

[PhilsFanDrew]

People seem to think scoring is a players only value. This isn't fantasy. His game is so strong in so many ways. So much stronger and more beneficial in most ways than most players who can out score him.

That said I still contend that he can produce offensively as we want. The system needs time to gel and probably needs another player or two.

But Cooter is one of this team's most valuable assets and any GM in this league would most likely agree with me.

Dangle him for a trade and watch the teamsswarm like great whites to chum.

He's a good damn player with a ton of responsibility and He's on a kinda crappy team.

Trade him and he'll join the likes of Williams, Sharp But probably more so.

 

I understand it isn't fantasy but its also about recognizing the shortcomings of this team and finding some kind of balance.  The biggest on ice deficiency is lack of goal scoring and the biggest off ice (front office) deficiency is lack of cap space.  While I am not trying to put Coots in the same camp as the totally awful contracts of Lecavalier, MacDonald, and Umberger he will be a player that in the coming years will be set to earn a nice chunk of money.  He definitely has value but given the makeup of this team and the issues of cap space is he really a piece worth holding on to if you can free up some cap and potentially add something you need more than just above average defensive play?  I liken having a player like Coots at his upcoming salary to a bad team having a stud closer in baseball.  Do teams that want to compete for a championship need a steady closer?  Of course but if your team is not good and struggles to score runs to take advantage of a closer then you need to move that piece to shore up other areas that are weak.  

 

Also I wouldn't say moving on from Coots would be like trading Williams or Sharp.  Williams played in 226 games for the Flyers and was traded for Danny Markov.  Sharp played a whopping 22 games for the Flyers.   The former was giving up a young, developing player for an older vet Dman and ultimately just a horrible trade with a bad return.   The latter was just giving up way too soon on a young player who was in the infancy of NHL development.  After tonight Coots has played 300 games in the NHL which would be almost a full season more games than Williams did.  Believe me I'd rather move the total dead weight parts first but realistically the return for Coots could be very decent and would likely help this team rebuild a bit quicker.  Will Coots defensive prowess have to eventually be replaced when this team gets closer to being a contender?  Of course but I believe if you retain many of your picks you could draft a suitable replacement that could come at a cheaper cap hit.    

[icehole]

funny that that performance came after he was scratched.. that Schenn kid shows flashes of quality but doesn't sustain it. According to an article i read was just taking his stick for a skate pretty often when shitty play started.

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=72544&blogger_id=45

here's the article so you don't think i'm making it up.

I know schenn can take some nights off. Sometimes I wonder how he seems to find his way into the top scorers on the team...but he does. So why does he get scratched but others that do way less do not? Is it an attitude adjustment thing? Dare I say "culture" change? God I hope not.

Do you think a Couturier scratch might help him a little? I don't think it would and that's the reason I'm down on him. Schenn gets scratched because he's not giving it his all (which is still good enough to make him a top scorer any way). That woke him up enough to come out with a lot of jump and get 8 shots.

I think Couturier is giving it his all and it's just not enough. There's no fixing that unless he does something crazy in the off season to transform his game.

[off_the_post]

Wasn't it just the 2013-14 season when the Flyers had seven 20 goal scorers on the team?  I miss those days.  Nothing like watching a team play for a few hours and not see them score.

 

While I agree with others that Cooter is not suited for 2c, I feel his production is down because the entire team's production is down as a whole.  However if the entire team's production was better I still don't think Cooter would be getting enough points to justify the 2c.  I don't see him having an NHL level shot and his skating, while improved, is still average and not to a point where he can back any defender in or use speed to get around the D.  I value his defensive skills but not at $4.33M when that contract kicks in for 2016-17.  So hopefully he is able to figure it out between now and then and start putting some points up. 

[murraycraven]

funny that that performance came after he was scratched.. that Schenn kid shows flashes of quality but doesn't sustain it. According to an article i read was just taking his stick for a skate pretty often when shitty play started.

 

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog.php?post_id=72544&blogger_id=45

 

here's the article so you don't think i'm making it up.

 

 

THIS has always been my frustration w/ Schenn.  You see flashes of brilliance but then he truly disappears for long stretches.   Just not sure he has the mental makeup to be consistent player in this league.   If he ever figures that out he will be a heck of a player... until then it will be more of the same.

[NRH]

Sounds like a joke at a bar. I liked this coach signing but now I'm wondering. He might be over his head.

 

I imagine there is more to it than that, during a rebuild you have less concerns with making deep playoff runs and seeing which prospects you have and who you have to deal before the deadline.

[icehole]

@Ice

I don't disagree but I think this is the year to figure out Couts. At worst he is a shutdown center that is suited for the 3rd line and I am fine with that. At best he is a 50 point second center. I tend tO think he is the former and every good team needs that type of player.

Any additional offense is gravy right now. He is still a very good player in this league even I'd the Flyer a over value him.

Last year was the year I was looking at him to do something. There's a rookie season, sophmore year, and then the rest of your career. If it were a guy like Giroux or even a sam gagne at 23, I'd give him a little more rope because the skating and skill are there.

I do like what he brings to the team on the third line, but I've said before that you can get those guys for cheap. I just think he's overvalued by most.

On a related note, Couts and Bellemare are beloved by everyone as penalty killers, yet they've been at the bottom of the league in pk for the past two seasons. Is that all because of their defense or are those two a little overrated on the PK. I actually like Bellemare because he fits the role nicely.

[Jmdodgesrt4]

Oh yea. We have to keep coots at 2c. He's amazing.

[fanaticV3.0]

That's what I've been trying to say, just not as succinctly as you have.

 

I admit that, at 23, he's not a finished product. But with 300 NHL games, in his 5th NHL season, it would be very very surprising if he all of a sudden discovered this hidden offensive game. It's just not there. He might hit 50 points, but that will probably be his peak. Which is awesome. That has a ton of value to this team. It's harder to find a Couturier than a Brayden Schenn.

 

Why thank you sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

 

I've never seen so much idiocy at both ends of the spectrum about a player, at least a flyer, in my life. In one corner, you got the jagaloons who want him gone  because he's not a first liner. In the other, you've got the delusional proud who thinks he's an offense talent being screwed over by every single one of his coaches – and that he simply hasn't been given the chance to succeed. They all need to shut up..

[brelic]

THIS has always been my frustration w/ Schenn.  You see flashes of brilliance but then he truly disappears for long stretches.   Just not sure he has the mental makeup to be consistent player in this league.   If he ever figures that out he will be a heck of a player... until then it will be more of the same.

 

Didn't we say the same thing about Carter? High and wide, disappears for long stretches, floats?

 

He's now displaced Kopitar as the #1C in LA.