Couturier is done for the Series

[icehole]

46 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

 

so essentially what you are saying is ....that he plays the game "too" nicely. Treats the game like an "all-star" game instead of a regular season or playoff game.  In essence no emotional spark.  Is that what I think you are trying to relay here?  Even though he may have a high hockey IQ, with no emotional spark then there is no sense of urgency to skate better or throw a hit or protect the puck.  Is that what it is basically coming down to?  Coots plays too passively?  (I am asking here ... not stating a fact)

More or less yes.  That doesn't make him a bad player...just not a good fit on a second line of a team that needs a real scoring threat.  He is the type of player you have on your team for depth and to balance things out on the third line.  I want my first and second lines to have a killer instinct.

[pilldoc]

40 minutes ago, icehole said:

More or less yes.  That doesn't make him a bad player...just not a good fit on a second line of a team that needs a real scoring threat.  He is the type of player you have on your team for depth and to balance things out on the third line.  I want my first and second lines to have a killer instinct.

 

Thought that is what you were trying to say.  Look, I have always given Coots the benefit of the doubt.  I'm sure he is a great kid on the ice and great teammate in the locker room, but maybe I need to take off the blinders a bit and try to see what everyone else sees.  He is what he is..... one thing is for sure...he is certainly and enigma on this team.

[radoran]

Don't /didn't people say the same thing about Schenn?

 

The thing about Couturier is that he hasn't had that "breakout" game or season like Schen just had.

 

The other is that he's  a year and a half younger than Schenn, despite more "experience."

[flyercanuck]

25 minutes ago, radoran said:

Don't /didn't people say the same thing about Schenn?

 

The thing about Couturier is that he hasn't had that "breakout" game or season like Schen just had.

 

The other is that he's  a year and a half younger than Schenn, despite more "experience."

 

I can't even bother arguing anymore with people who have no patience with players. There is no exact science to how players develop...you draft them and give them time and hope they pan out or watch the Justin Williams/Patrick Sharps of the world beat you on other teams.

 

And listen to the same people who complained about those players condemn Flyer management for having no patience. See Mike Richards/Jeff Carter/Claude Giroux/Brayden Schenn/Sean Couturier and next year it'll be Ivan Provorov with Konecny/Sanheim/Morin to follow.

[hf101]

2 hours ago, radoran said:

Don't /didn't people say the same thing about Schenn?

 

The thing about Couturier is that he hasn't had that "breakout" game or season like Schen just had.

 

The other is that he's  a year and a half younger than Schenn, despite more "experience."

 

I for one never complained about Schenn.  For me "that breakout" season isn't what my concerns about Couturier are.  It isn't about points production.   Couturier will find himself with more points as long as he is playing with performing wingers.  I think Couturier can develop his offensive game, winning more face -offs. getting more PP time.

 

But I don't know if he can really develop that edge factor that pushes his game to a greater sense of urgency in his play.  He could body check once in awhile versus just trying to stick check.  Granted he is rather good at stick checks.  If you look at his Hits stats Couturier delivers less than one hit per game and if anything he delivers fewer hits now than he did as a rookie.  For a defensive forward I'd say there is a lot of room for improvement there.   Have you ever take notice to how often he is out muscled along the boards?   Or how he just doesn't just put himself in a position to win a battle for the puck along the boards.  Is this limited intrinsic strength or is is will?  I'm not sure how confident I am believing that the intensity of bringing that edge factor can be developed for a player who prefers to take a less physical approach.

 

I found a video example to help visualize my point.  There is a battle for the puck to be won along the boards with Malkin.  Couturier stands just far enough away to annoyingly cross check Malkin but he doesn't actually make an effort to get the puck himself.   Why?   This is kinda lame...right?  This is the norm with Couturier for a puck battle.  When you reach for the puck, you lose leverage and look weak.  Does this not bother anyone else besides @icehole and @aziz , and myself?     Do folks really think Couturier will ever be that player like Bellamare who uses his body in addition to stick checks to win puck battles because I think Bellamare is a far better defensive player than Couturier.

 

Granted Malkin given an extra 2 min for losing his cool, but Couturier could have easily been called for cross checking too.  Malkin tosses Couturier aside like a rag doll.

 

[icehole]

13 hours ago, pilldoc said:

 

Thought that is what you were trying to say.  Look, I have always given Coots the benefit of the doubt.  I'm sure he is a great kid on the ice and great teammate in the locker room, but maybe I need to take off the blinders a bit and try to see what everyone else sees.  He is what he is..... one thing is for sure...he is certainly and enigma on this team.

The bottom line is he is a very valuable player.  I don't want to short change him but I feel like I have to sometimes to prove my point.

He is a guy you want to complete your team but he's not a guy you focus on as a key player.  If Washington wins the cup, people will talk about how important it was to add guys like Justin Williams and Mike richards.  Ovechkin, Backstrom, Oshie, and kusnetsov are going to kill you but richards and williams will keep them from getting killed.  I feel like that is what couturier is but that's not what people treat him like.  Couturier doesn't have the killer instinct like those guys do either.  He will never score goals on pure determination and he will get injured sometimes because players around him are playing at a higher intensity.

[flyercanuck]

54 minutes ago, hf101 said:

 

I for one never complained about Schenn.  For me "that breakout" season isn't what my concerns about Couturier are.  It isn't about points production.   Couturier will find himself with more points as long as he is playing with performing wingers.  I think Couturier can develop his offensive game, winning more face -offs. getting more PP time.

 

But I don't know if he can really develop that edge factor that pushes his game to a greater sense of urgency in his play.  He could body check once in awhile versus just trying to stick check.  Granted he is rather good at stick checks.  If you look at his Hits stats Couturier delivers less than one hit per game and if anything he delivers fewer hits now than he did as a rookie.  For a defensive forward I'd say there is a lot of room for improvement there.   Have you ever take notice to how often he is out muscled along the boards?   Or how he just doesn't just put himself in a position to win a battle for the puck along the boards.  Is this limited intrinsic strength or is is will?  I'm not sure how confident I am believing that the intensity of bringing that edge factor can be developed for a player who prefers to take a less physical approach.

 

I found a video example to help visualize my point.  There is a battle for the puck to be won along the boards with Malkin.  Couturier stands just far enough away to annoyingly cross check Malkin but he doesn't actually make an effort to get the puck himself.   Why?   This is kinda lame...right?  This is the norm with Couturier for a puck battle.  When you reach for the puck, you lose leverage and look weak.  Does this not bother anyone else besides @icehole and @aziz , and myself?     Do folks really think Couturier will ever be that player like Bellamare who uses his body in addition to stick checks to win puck battles because I think Bellamare is a far better defensive player than Couturier.

 

Granted Malkin given an extra 2 min for losing his cool, but Couturier could have easily been called for cross checking too.  Malkin tosses Couturier aside like a rag doll.

 

 

You know who hits less than Couturier? Toews and Datsyuk...the two best two way forwards in the game. Kopitar, another one, hits at about one a game pace.

[hf101]

2 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

You know who hits less than Couturier? Toews and Datsyuk...the two best defensive forwards in the game.

 

That is absolutely incorrect.

2016 season:

Toews 81 hits, 80 games

Datsyuk 70 hits, 66 games

Bergeron 77 hits, 80 games

Couturier  31 hits, 63 games

[flyercanuck]

40 minutes ago, hf101 said:

 

That is absolutely incorrect.

2016 season:

Toews 81 hits, 80 games

Datsyuk 70 hits, 66 games

Bergeron 77 hits, 80 games

Couturier  31 hits, 63 games

 

Couturier averages .8 hits per game in his career.

Toews averages .65

Datsyuk .53

Bergeron .53

Kopitar .93

 

None of them are heavy hitters.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Hey, did anyone see the hit Coots took?  What do you think about him as a player?

 

 

 

 

 

 

I need a popcorn refill...

[hf101]

18 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Couturier averages .8 hits per game in his career.

Toews averages .65

Datsyuk .53

 

I only have hit stats for the last 7 years so in those last 7 years Datsyuk averages 1 hit / game.

But whatever,  Couturier as doesn't have the scoring skills of those two guys either and I hardly doubt he ever will.

 

Moving from the 3rd to the 2nd line as dropped his hit% to about half a hit per game this year and frankly this isn't the trend in his development that I prefer to see him play. 

 

I'd like Couturier to develop his game to more like Ryan Kesler, I consider Kesler as one of the best 2nd line centers in the game today. Couturier has the size of Kesler, but not the strength, power, nor the aggressiveness.  I don't even think he has the mentality to play a style of game like Ryan Kesler.  And this is what the Flyers need.  This video is about 4 years old. And I'll bet if I found one of the first 5 years of Kesler's career the highlights would be similar.  I just don't think you can develop a passive player into a dominant player.

 

And yes, if you asked me 5 years ago if I would trade Couturier straight up for Ryan Kesler I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[flyercanuck]

3 hours ago, hf101 said:

 

 

1 hour ago, hf101 said:

 

I only have hit stats for the last 7 years so in those last 7 years Datsyuk averages 1 hit / game.

But whatever,  Couturier as doesn't have the scoring skills of those two guys either and I hardly doubt he ever will.

 

Right...and nobody said he was Datsyuk. And he isn't paid like him either. I only brought up those players because, like Couturier, they are very defensively responsible without being big hitters.

 

1 hour ago, hf101 said:

 

Moving from the 3rd to the 2nd line as dropped his hit% to about half a hit per game this year and frankly this isn't the trend in his development that I prefer to see him play. 

 

I'd like Couturier to develop his game to more like Ryan Kesler, I consider Kesler as one of the best 2nd line centers in the game today. Couturier has the size of Kesler, but not the strength, power, nor the aggressiveness.  I don't even think he has the mentality to play a style of game like Ryan Kesler.  And this is what the Flyers need.  This video is about 4 years old. And I'll bet if I found one of the first 5 years of Kesler's career the highlights would be similar.  I just don't think you can develop a passive player into a dominant player.

 

And yes, if you asked me 5 years ago if I would trade Couturier straight up for Ryan Kesler I'd do it in a heartbeat.

 

And again, he isn't paid like Kesler. You think Kesler and his 40+ points a season are a much better deal at 6.85 million a year than Couturiers just under 40 for $4.25? Heck I'd like to see him be Connor McDavid. But he's Sean Couturier.

 

And by the way...Keslers point totals in his NHL career at Couturiers age? 81. Compared to 157 for that bum Couturier. Again, if you want him to be Kesler, or whoever else you want him to be, at least compare them at the same age. 

 

1 hour ago, hf101 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

You can make anyone look great with highlights...

 

 

[aziz]

5 hours ago, hf101 said:

I found a video example to help visualize my point.  There is a battle for the puck to be won along the boards with Malkin.  Couturier stands just far enough away to annoyingly cross check Malkin but he doesn't actually make an effort to get the puck himself.   Why?   This is kinda lame...right?  This is the norm with Couturier for a puck battle.  When you reach for the puck, you lose leverage and look weak.  Does this not bother anyone else besides @icehole and @aziz , and myself?     Do folks really think Couturier will ever be that player like Bellamare who uses his body in addition to stick checks to win puck battles because I think Bellamare is a far better defensive player than Couturier.

 

for some reason, couturier has been tapped by a crowd as some kind of protected child that can't be criticized.  aside from his skating.  the fact that the standoff pressure he applies in the video you posted is standard procedure from him is somehow not a valid critique.  it is called "hockey IQ" and "positioning".  which, i guess is true from a point of view.  he doesn't get himself into situations where he can be completely beaten, so maybe that is something.  he refuses to challenge for possession, preferring to maintain position.   good decision on the penalty kill, but at even strength, i think you want at least some amount of, "that's my puck, and i'm taking it," from your defensive ace center.  allowing a creative team to maintain possession is asking for problems, regardless of how well you have the angles covered on your check.

 

can't make that argument, though.  especially if you haven't played peewee hockey.  couturier is beyond fault or failing.  his complete awesomeness is apparent, and if you don't see it, you are way out there, and probably stupid.

 

a word about his skating and the idea that it is something that can be "fixed":  he's 23.  skating as his primary deficiency has been noted since he was at least 16.  in the intervening 7 years, he has not improved significantly.  5 of those years have been spent as a high draft pick for a flush organization, with access to the best powerskating instructors in the world.  and he has not improved significantly.  i know for myself, my skating improved by miles from age 12 through about 20.  after that, it pretty much was what it was.  if couturier hasn't fixed his cement skates yet, he isn't going to.  and i think people are fooling themselves by thinking  that A)he hasn't tried so far, and B)something is somehow going to change from here.  the guy accelerates like a yugo, and that's just part of his game.

 

i like couturier on the team.  he is a great penalty killer, and a fair man-on-man shutdown player.  he could be better.  if he could learn to challenge for pucks that at this point he surrenders and simply stays goal side of, he could be a really strong 3rd line guy.  right now, though, he is seriously lacking in that area.  i'm not allowed to say it, and i imagine i'll take heat for the comment, but there it is.  his nastiness takes the form of goalside crosschecks, but i'd like him to learn some shoulder-driven, "nope, my puck, sit down."

[canoli]

There's no halo over Couturier's head on this board. People criticize him like anyone else. It's when you use words like "nearly useless" or "floating" to describe his game...that's when you should expect his fans to wonder what you've been smoking...or whether you ever played the game...on ice.

 

 

 

 

[murraycraven]

On 4/15/2016 at 1:04 PM, hf101 said:

Forwards played a great defensive game tonight!    Neutral zone okay was way better than anything Couts could ever do...   Trade him!

(Just a joke)

[KjellShocked]

2 hours ago, canoli said:

There's no halo over Couturier's head on this board. People criticize him like anyone else. It's when you use words like "nearly useless" or "floating" to describe his game...that's when you should expect his fans to wonder what you've been smoking...or whether you ever played the game...on ice.

 

 

 

 

 

That's the thing.  @aziz used "useless" to describe an aspect of his game. Same for @hf101.  Kind of makes the argument that if anyone dare criticize the guy they are clueless which kinda means he does have that "halo" over his head and really has since he was drafted.

 

[OccamsRazor]

All i know is Coots was completely invisible last night he did absolutely nothing...

[flyercanuck]

3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

All i know is Coots was completely invisible last night he did absolutely nothing...

 

So was Konecny and Provorov. Time to ship them out.

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

Trade all things!!

[hf101]

17 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 

 

 

You can make anyone look great with highlights...

 

 

 

 

LOL - they did highlight that same goal on Fleury a few times.

Not one bone-crunching hit.... Not even one hit in that entire highlight reel.     and @murraycraven likes this.

[icehole]

On 4/16/2016 at 4:18 PM, flyercanuck said:

 

 

Right...and nobody said he was Datsyuk. And he isn't paid like him either. I only brought up those players because, like Couturier, they are very defensively responsible without being big hitters.

 

 

And again, he isn't paid like Kesler. You think Kesler and his 40+ points a season are a much better deal at 6.85 million a year than Couturiers just under 40 for $4.25? Heck I'd like to see him be Connor McDavid. But he's Sean Couturier.

 

And by the way...Keslers point totals in his NHL career at Couturiers age? 81. Compared to 157 for that bum Couturier. Again, if you want him to be Kesler, or whoever else you want him to be, at least compare them at the same age. 

 

 

You can make anyone look great with highlights...

 

 

You're exactly right...there's a reason they're called highlight reels.

Although I'm not a huge fan of ryan kessler, the comparison of their highlights proves my point.  Kessler's video shows him clawing and scratching to get a lot of his goals.  He's being hacked and wacked, but he says "nobody is going to take this puck from me and I'm getting to the f@$cking net".  His hits are fast and brutal and his fights are pure anger.

Couturier's highlights are mostly uncontested plays.  He finds gaps and openings.  When he is wide open, he can do some things.  That is a valuable skill but you won't get that luxury against good playoff teams.  He will never get to the goal through defenders trying to take him off the puck.  His fights are more calculated because he's not angry enough to just throw hands.

Again, he is valuable but I'd rather have two lines of guys skating and blasting through defenses.  He'd serve well on a different type of third line.

[flyercanuck]

21 hours ago, hf101 said:

 

LOL - they did highlight that same goal on Fleury a few times.

Not one bone-crunching hit.... Not even one hit in that entire highlight reel.     and @murraycraven likes this.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

if only Couturier....

[aziz]

On 4/17/2016 at 11:07 PM, KjellShocked said:

 

That's the thing.  @aziz used "useless" to describe an aspect of his game. Same for @hf101.  Kind of makes the argument that if anyone dare criticize the guy they are clueless which kinda means he does have that "halo" over his head and really has since he was drafted.

 

 

they don't even read.  they see "couturier" and some negative descriptor in the same post, and start reaching for heart medication.  and thinking up reasons their point of view is more valid than other people's.

 

canoli, should i understand that you are now reaching for the roller hockey exception to "having played the game" with your little "on ice" dangle?  find the reasons, boys.  you are better than everyone, just gotta find the angle that brings your lessors to heel.

 

so, here i am playing college club hockey.  circa...1995.  can we move on from this embarrassing bit of secret master crap?

[AlaskaFlyerFan]

That bright spot behind you...Is that the goal light being turned on?!?  

[aziz]

20 minutes ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

That bright spot behind you...Is that the goal light being turned on?!?  

 

Ha,  either that or my brother -who was a  high school senior taking photography at the time- sucked at developing film. 

 

Edit:  I do know that number 6 was a defenseman,  who was also on my midget team,  and the guy in front of me was his man.  So...goal light right there or moments after were likely.