OH1FlyersFan Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 17 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: See that is the funny thing folks act like there is a green light that is going to come on in the future that will signal the rebuild.... ...thing is that has already happened...they are in the rebuild as we speak...the flag/signal has already taken place.... ...and it is not a week or day thing it is on going.. Depends on the definition of rebuild, I suppose. Maybe they've been attempting to rebuild for the last 10 years or so, which probably makes this, whatever "this" is, one of the longest continual rebuilds in history. So I see your point, but it may be more nuanced than that. I'd argue that what we've seen are multiple, independent attempts at a rebuild - various stand-alone iterations as the organization's vision or goals change from season to season. There's been a lack of continuity. At times, it's seemed herky-jerky, aimless, and meandering - like they don't really know what they're trying to build, what they want in a team. There's been no complete, consistently competitive product produced as a result of a "rebuild" as far as I can see. So maybe that's why it feels continuous, on-going, as you say - WE, the fans, are still waiting for the final product. I hope the organization is too, because what they've put on the ice to date has been, ah, lacking. We've seen guys added here, guys added there, guys brought up, sent down, traded, bought out, salary moved - tinkering around the edges dictated by the salary cap more than anything - but nothing that has had a major impact, nothing that has caused a dramatic, franchise changing improvement to establish a winning dynasty (and I'll settle for nothing less than a dynasty....HA!) I'm not sure that meets the definition of a rebuild. To me, it feels more like several, independent seasonal rebuilds - as opposed to one long continuous rebuild. And there will be yet another rebuild. So, we're either looking at the longest, continual (unsuccessful) rebuild in history or perhaps we've seen a series of rebuilds, started and finished, that have not really moved the team forward. I'd argue, we're about to see another attempt at a rebuild, one that can't really take place until after the expansion draft and we make some roster changes, such as we can. The light will go green. Or, depending on your rebuild perspective, maybe we're just going to pause the current rebuild - the light goes red or yellow - until those things occur and we can understand the ramifications and then continue continuing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 31 minutes ago, OH1FlyersFan said: Depends on the definition of rebuild, I suppose. Maybe they've been attempting to rebuild for the last 10 years or so, which probably makes this, whatever "this" is, one of the longest continual rebuilds in history. So I see your point, but it may be more nuanced than that. I'd argue that what we've seen are multiple, independent attempts at a rebuild - various stand-alone iterations as the organization's vision or goals change from season to season. There's been a lack of continuity. At times, it's seemed herky-jerky, aimless, and meandering - like they don't really know what they're trying to build, what they want in a team. There's been no complete, consistently competitive product produced as a result of a "rebuild" as far as I can see. So maybe that's why it feels continuous, on-going, as you say - WE, the fans, are still waiting for the final product. I hope the organization is too, because what they've put on the ice to date has been, ah, lacking. We've seen guys added here, guys added there, guys brought up, sent down, traded, bought out, salary moved - tinkering around the edges dictated by the salary cap more than anything - but nothing that has had a major impact, nothing that has caused a dramatic, franchise changing improvement to establish a winning dynasty (and I'll settle for nothing less than a dynasty....HA!) I'm not sure that meets the definition of a rebuild. To me, it feels more like several, independent seasonal rebuilds - as opposed to one long continuous rebuild. And there will be yet another rebuild. So, we're either looking at the longest, continual (unsuccessful) rebuild in history or perhaps we've seen a series of rebuilds, started and finished, that have not really moved the team forward. I'd argue, we're about to see another attempt at a rebuild, one that can't really take place until after the expansion draft and we make some roster changes, such as we can. The light will go green. Or, depending on your rebuild perspective, maybe we're just going to pause the current rebuild - the light goes red or yellow - until those things occur and we can understand the ramifications and then continue continuing. They've really been stuttering on the rebuild since 2000 when Lindros went down. They've never fully committed to it and kept trying to just add on pieces to fix it. They mostly had no choice in 2007, but when they sold off Forseberg et al, they didn't get prospects or picks, they got Vets like Briere, Kimmo and a guy just entering his peak in Hartnell. Coburn was probably the closest to a rebuild acquisition. Then were competitive the first year of the "rebuild" and I think the concept was fully abandoned. I actually wonder if NOT getting Kane in the lottery helped or hurt this in their heads. Since then, they've had several opportunties to start over and go full rebuild, but there was always a player or two good enough and in his prime (or just coming out of it) enough to hold them back from that commitment (Pronger, Kimmo, Briere, now Giroux and Jake). Ultimately though my honest belief is that the lack of a full commitment to a complete rebuild was due to Snider. Not because he was a jerk and told Clarke, Homer and Hextall what to do, but because those guys all really genuinely loved the old man and wanted to give him another winner before he died. I don't think the death thing was necessarily in Clarke's head (maybe when he resigned it was in the back of his head) but I think it was definitely a factor that could explain Homer's increasing desperation toward the end of his tenure. By the time Homer stepped down (or moved on up rather) I think it was obvious to Hextall and Snider that it probably wasn't going to happen and they just resolved to leave him with the belief that this team had hope to be great again... which i do think he probably died believing. Now though I think all bets are off. I wonder if Spectator the team will be sold after all. I wonder what changes that will bring to the overall philosophy. Utlimately (as I said above) I really do think they're just 2 (maybe 3) players and a little bit more time off of greatness. That said, Hakstol has to calm the hell down with the system shifts and line juggling. That's not helping at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said: Why was he even put on a checking line to begin with? Cause as an 18 year old he MADE the NHL and was really good defensively? He must have been one crappy player to make the NHL in his draft year...I mean anyone can do that, right? 1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said: I mean, If a player is sooo good that he scores 96 points two years in a row should some of that God-given talent spillover into his next "job"? If he was that good offensively, wouldn't he be elevating players around him to a certain degree? I'm not saying because he scored at that level and juniors that he's going to do in the pros, but should there be some part of his game that shows similarities? Yes, most 18 year olds get top line centre position and elevate everyone around them. Couturier was rushed into the NHL by a gm with zero patience. I wanted him sent back to junior. 1 hour ago, fanaticV3.0 said: Plus, he's in his sixth season, only 24, AND has played as a top six guy. Where's that player from juniors? How much more evidence does there need to be for you to admit he is simply not that guy? why the excuses? Because you had a soft spot for him when he was playing in juniors? That player as I already mentioned likely was rushed into the NHL and put in a checking role...which helped him develop really well in that role, at the cost of his offensive game developing. How much evidence does there need for you to admit he simply IS that guy? Soft spot for him in junior? Couturier played in the Q...maybe grab yourself an atlas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 1 minute ago, flyercanuck said: Cause as an 18 year old he MADE the NHL and was really good defensively? He must have been one crappy player to make the NHL in his draft year...I mean anyone can do that, right? Yes, most 18 year olds get top line centre position and elevate everyone around them. Couturier was rushed into the NHL by a gm with zero patience. I wanted him sent back to junior. That player as I already mentioned likely was rushed into the NHL and put in a checking role...which helped him develop really well in that role, at the cost of his offensive game developing. How much evidence does there need for you to admit he simply IS that guy? Soft spot for him in junior? Couturier played in the Q...maybe grab yourself an atlas. Something better than a 39 point season? *Drops the mic* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Knut Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, flyercanuck said: Cause as an 18 year old he MADE the NHL and was really good defensively? He must have been one crappy player to make the NHL in his draft year...I mean anyone can do that, right? Yes, most 18 year olds get top line centre position and elevate everyone around them. Couturier was rushed into the NHL by a gm with zero patience. I wanted him sent back to junior. That player as I already mentioned likely was rushed into the NHL and put in a checking role...which helped him develop really well in that role, at the cost of his offensive game developing. How much evidence does there need for you to admit he simply IS that guy? Soft spot for him in junior? Couturier played in the Q...maybe grab yourself an atlas. People just seriously need to let go of the Coots whining. Not all first round picks score 100 points. Very few score at an elite level. To be mad at a #8 pick for not being a generational talent like McDavid or Mathews is getting very very old. Couturier is a very good player and does a great many things to help this team and I guarantee you that almost ANY team in this league would trade for him in a heartbeat. That first year he scored 13 goals and 27 points in 77 games. While not remotely McDavid numbers, it's still pretty damn promising for a guy that Laviolette stuck on the PK and gave the toughest checking assignments to as a teenage rookie. He scored a hat trick int he playoffs against the Penguins (while shutting down and infuriating Malkin) and everyone was happy as could be with him. Essentially my point is that he didn't START his pro career being disappointing offensively. His second was the year of the strike and he scored like a star in the AHL (28 points in 31 games), but when the season started up, he was penned into that defensive specialist role even more so and that began three straight years of line mates with stone hands and the grand majority of starts in his own end. That's essentially being put behind the 8 ball offensively. This year he's got 8 goals and 12 points in 30 games. He's still playing half of all the PK minutes and his line mates change every night and has more defensive zone starts than any other forward on the team and fewer offensive zone starts than any forward on the team. Despite this, what has consistently improved changed with Couts though is his zone entry and possession numbers which are among the best on the team, especially for a guy who plays so many PK minutes. Long story short, regardless of who his line mates are, Hakstol is still using him as a shut down 3C, not a scoring 2C. To complain about him being a bust is to just not really know the value of a hockey player. It's like the way I used to value players as a kid... based entirely on the numbers on the back of their hockey cards. There's just so much more to it. He's almost perennially mentioned as a Selke type player and has been a top ten finalist twice including his "disastrous" year last year. Would I like him to score more? Sure! I think if they actually TREATED HIM like a 2nd line Center he probably would score more. Even as things are, if they let him play with Jake and Konecney every night for a while, I think he would score more. But as long as Hakstol keeps using him like a shut down 3C, he's going to continue playing like a shut down 3C and neither he nor his line mates are going to score as much as they might be otherwise. Complaining about it or calling him lazy is just going to make folks look bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 27 minutes ago, King Knut said: People just seriously need to let go of the Coots whining. Not all first round picks score 100 points. Very few score at an elite level. To be mad at a #8 pick for not being a generational talent like McDavid or Mathews is getting very very old. Couturier is a very good player and does a great many things to help this team and I guarantee you that almost ANY team in this league would trade for him in a heartbeat. That first year he scored 13 goals and 27 points in 77 games. While not remotely McDavid numbers, it's still pretty damn promising for a guy that Laviolette stuck on the PK and gave the toughest checking assignments to as a teenage rookie. He scored a hat trick int he playoffs against the Penguins (while shutting down and infuriating Malkin) and everyone was happy as could be with him. Essentially my point is that he didn't START his pro career being disappointing offensively. His second was the year of the strike and he scored like a star in the AHL (28 points in 31 games), but when the season started up, he was penned into that defensive specialist role even more so and that began three straight years of line mates with stone hands and the grand majority of starts in his own end. That's essentially being put behind the 8 ball offensively. This year he's got 8 goals and 12 points in 30 games. He's still playing half of all the PK minutes and his line mates change every night and has more defensive zone starts than any other forward on the team and fewer offensive zone starts than any forward on the team. Despite this, what has consistently improved changed with Couts though is his zone entry and possession numbers which are among the best on the team, especially for a guy who plays so many PK minutes. Long story short, regardless of who his line mates are, Hakstol is still using him as a shut down 3C, not a scoring 2C. To complain about him being a bust is to just not really know the value of a hockey player. It's like the way I used to value players as a kid... based entirely on the numbers on the back of their hockey cards. There's just so much more to it. He's almost perennially mentioned as a Selke type player and has been a top ten finalist twice including his "disastrous" year last year. Would I like him to score more? Sure! I think if they actually TREATED HIM like a 2nd line Center he probably would score more. Even as things are, if they let him play with Jake and Konecney every night for a while, I think he would score more. But as long as Hakstol keeps using him like a shut down 3C, he's going to continue playing like a shut down 3C and neither he nor his line mates are going to score as much as they might be otherwise. Complaining about it or calling him lazy is just going to make folks look bad. Well said King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 47 minutes ago, fanaticV3.0 said: *Drops the mic* Best thing you've said today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 2 hours ago, fanaticV3.0 said: Something better than a 39 point season? *Drops the mic* The whole team is offensively challenged. He isn't ever going to be a 60 points or more in a season guy. He's a 3rd line defensive center. That's it, and he isn't going to change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaineFlyFan Posted January 20, 2017 Share Posted January 20, 2017 *picks up mic* LADIES AND GENTLEMEN, ACCOMPANIED TO THE RING BY HIS MANAGER BOBBY "THE BRAIN" HEENAN, THE 7TH WONDER OF THE WORLD......ANDRE THE GIANT!!!!!!! (Sorry.....always dreamed of doing that!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 On 1/20/2017 at 3:00 PM, FD19372 said: The whole team is offensively challenged. He isn't ever going to be a 60 points or more in a season guy. He's a 3rd line defensive center. That's it, and he isn't going to change. He's probably never going to be a 50 points a guy either. Hell, he might never hit 40 on a regular basis. Tell that to the guy to the dude blaming his game on his coaches. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philly29 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 On 1/20/2017 at 0:36 PM, King Knut said: To be mad at a #8 pick for not being a generational talent like McDavid or Mathews is getting very very old. Who said this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 6 hours ago, Philly29 said: Who said this??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: I'm not sure whether this is annoying or interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted January 23, 2017 Share Posted January 23, 2017 11 minutes ago, FD19372 said: I'm not sure whether this is annoying or interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Philly29 Posted January 24, 2017 Share Posted January 24, 2017 2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: LMFAO!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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