Blow this mess up or stay course!

[Jam1986]

These two games sucked very hard! So what do you guys thinks the  best way to blow it up or tweek it? Keep all prospects where they are now and let them to learn. The big team keep the three young ones and say bye bye to all others. Also would you put up G or Jake up in the expansion draft? Just a dump of contract and get picks. Be nice just blowing of steam! As I say a Flyers fan forever,

[FD19372]

We need to start by letting the Reads and MacDonalds of the world go. They are useless. Then, if the downward spiral continues after that, move to the bigger contracts. No way I let G or Jake go to the expansion draft. I want something significant in return for them if were to move on from them.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, Jam1986 said:

These two games sucked very hard! So what do you guys thinks the  best way to blow it up or tweek it? Keep all prospects where they are now and let them to learn. The big team keep the three young ones and say bye bye to all others. Also would you put up G or Jake up in the expansion draft? Just a dump of contract and get picks. Be nice just blowing of steam! As I say a Flyers fan forever,

 

Stay the course and jettison dead weight.

 

From top to bottom.

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

 

Everyone knows where I stand - it's time to blow it up and build it properly. No more quick fixes, no more throwing money at players who 'might' fix the problem, no more panic moves to secure a playoff spot.

 

I think Giroux, Voracek and Simmonds should submit a list if teams they'll accept trades to. Its time to move Streit, Schultz and manning and on the off season, buy out MacDonald.

 

Its time to move Coots back to a third line role and just key him focus ok defense and face offs. Let him be a Primeau-lite so to speak. Move Schenn to a club that will pay a premium. He's 25 and the only thing consistent about him is his inconsistency.

 

I hope Hextall is pissed like I am. The effort has been piss poor and it's time to make players accountable.

[Poulin20]

Stay the course.  Hexy put a long term plan in place to develop young talent in the minors and to bring them up when ready while waiting out the bad Homer deals.  I see no other options as a fire sale  style blow up will put us back light years.   We knew going in that the next few years would suck and they do, it's  unfortunately part of a long term rebuilding process.

 

I want us to be good as bad as anyone as I am personally and financially invested in this as a STH but I'm of the firm belief that  we need to let Hexy do what he set out to do.  If afterwards it fails then he can go but I at least want to give him a real chance to see this through before we make any drastic moves.

[murraycraven]

14 minutes ago, Poulin20 said:

Stay the course.  Hexy put a long term plan in place to develop young talent in the minors and to bring them up when ready while waiting out the bad Homer deals.  I see no other options as a fire sale  style blow up will put us back light years.   We knew going in that the next few years would suck and they do, it's  unfortunately part of a long term rebuilding process.

 

I want us to be good as bad as anyone as I am personally and financially invested in this as a STH but I'm of the firm belief that  we need to let Hexy do what he set out to do.  If afterwards it fails then he can go but I at least want to give him a real chance to see this through before we make any drastic moves.

 

I agree but let me play devil's advocate here....    What has Hextall done other than sign players to overly bloated contracts?   

 

Patience is one thing....   But being patient in the face of a faulty plan is just not going to produce.    My main question is this really a core that can win a championship?   

 

I don't know the answer but I also believe that Hextall needs to be held to a high standard.    Juat being better than Homer is not gonna get us anywhere....   

[caluso]

My main question is this really a core that can win a championship?   Absolutely not.  The true core of this team should be: Voracek, Simmonds and Provorov. Everybody else should be available for the right price. 

 

I think you and many other members here have over-valued the "core." Coots, for example. I know that Murray has been a staunch supporter of his, and while his loyalty is admirable, it is misguided. The simple fact of the matter is Coots is nothing more than a fourth line player. He is not fit for this game, in this age. He has no speed, no work ethic, no passion. Not a guy to be paying 4.1 million per year to.

 

Then there is Schenn, who is a valuable power play asset but nothing more. Bad guy to be paying 5.1 million per year to.

 

The truth of the matter is, this losing streak could be the best thing to happen to the franchise in the long term. Let's face it, the team is  mediocre and has zero chance of competing for the Cup this year. If this losing streak is the impetus for a sell-off / tank job, so be it. Edmonton, Toronto and Buffalo are teams with very promising future's now who seized the opportunity to acquire top flight talent by tanking. It is our turn.

 

Which brings me to my last point: Chris Pryor has to go. The organization's ability to judge talent is laughable. The Rangers and Blackhawks are two teams that habitually acquire real talent with late round picks or free agents. The Flyers....not so much.

 

[icehole]

2 hours ago, murraycraven said:

 

I agree but let me play devil's advocate here....    What has Hextall done other than sign players to overly bloated contracts?   

 

Patience is one thing....   But being patient in the face of a faulty plan is just not going to produce.    My main question is this really a core that can win a championship?   

 

I don't know the answer but I also believe that Hextall needs to be held to a high standard.    Juat being better than Homer is not gonna get us anywhere....   

I sort of said this a few weeks ago.  Hextall draft = good

Hextall contract negotiations and signing role players = bad.

I think everyone fell in love with his plan because it was different from doing what they were doing and not getting to the promise land.  Either his plan won't work, or his plan will take a lot longer than we hoped.  It think it's because he only went halfway in.  He's trying to "contend" while building a young core.

Either go the old flyers route and go for it every year, or sell the farm and build from the beginning.  Don't go half in.

[Jam1986]

1 hour ago, caluso said:

My main question is this really a core that can win a championship?   Absolutely not.  The true core of this team should be: Voracek, Simmonds and Provorov. Everybody else should be available for the right price. 

 

I think you and many other members here have over-valued the "core." Coots, for example. I know that Murray has been a staunch supporter of his, and while his loyalty is admirable, it is misguided. The simple fact of the matter is Coots is nothing more than a fourth line player. He is not fit for this game, in this age. He has no speed, no work ethic, no passion. Not a guy to be paying 4.1 million per year to.

 

Then there is Schenn, who is a valuable power play asset but nothing more. Bad guy to be paying 5.1 million per year to.

 

The truth of the matter is, this losing streak could be the best thing to happen to the franchise in the long term. Let's face it, the team is  mediocre and has zero chance of competing for the Cup this year. If this losing streak is the impetus for a sell-off / tank job, so be it. Edmonton, Toronto and Buffalo are teams with very promising future's now who seized the opportunity to acquire top flight talent by tanking. It is our turn.

 

Which brings me to my last point: Chris Pryor has to go. The organization's ability to judge talent is laughable. The Rangers and Blackhawks are two teams that habitually acquire real talent with late round picks or free agents. The Flyers....not so much.

 

Jake should go to and they found guys in the draft but most are 2yrs away

[Jam1986]

Ok then what can we get for G and others?

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

24 minutes ago, Jam1986 said:

Ok then what can we get for G and others?

 

For Giroux, there's no reason why we couldn't expect a package of young players and prospects. Giroux's a guy that can help get a team over the hump and into perrenial Stanley Cup contendership. Could you picture Giroux in San Jose behind Thornton and Pavelski? That would be dirty. Or, Giroux in Los Angeles behind Kopitar. Hell, Giroux in Anaheim with Getzlaf ahead and Kesler behind him. Ludicrous depth. Teams would come out of the wood work for Giroux. I'd certainly expect no fewer than 20 teams would be in the hunt for Giroux if he were to waive his NMC. The asking price would be high in that the Flyers could ask for a blue chip young roster forward, a blue chip prospect and multiple firsts.

 

I'd also expect a similar amount for Simmonds, if the Flyers decided to put him on the market. A power forward, signed to a team friendly deal and he's just about to hit his prime. Once again, you'd be looking around 20 teams that would be interested and at the very least, the Flyers could demand a young roster forward, a blue chip center prospect and a first round pick.

 

As for Jake Voracek, I think teams would also line up to have a top pairing winger, who's signed long term and is also coming into his prime. I think a package for Voracek could very easily be a young roster player, a blue chip prospect and a first.

 

There's lots of talent in Philadelphia that could return very nice pieces. Right now, it's a matter of finding the right pieces for Hakstol's system. Right now, players just don't get it and they aren't trying very hard either. I expect from first and second year players, but when players have been around for 5 years or longer, there's no reason why they should be making the same mistakes game in and game out. The only reason they are is if they just don't care and watching the guys play, a lot of them are just going through the motions. You don't want to be here? Fine, let the GM know and he'll accomodate a move for you. I'm hoping that during the layoff, Hextall does something major. It's time to start moving pieces.

[caluso]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I sort of said this a few weeks ago.  Hextall draft = good

Hextall contract negotiations and signing role players = bad.

I think everyone fell in love with his plan because it was different from doing what they were doing and not getting to the promise land.  Either his plan won't work, or his plan will take a lot longer than we hoped.  It think it's because he only went halfway in.  He's trying to "contend" while building a young core.

Either go the old flyers route and go for it every year, or sell the farm and build from the beginning.  Don't go half in.

That is the thing, there is no "half in." If the team sticks to the "plan" and tries to be competitive every year, while building from within, this team will be mediocre for a decade. Teams like Buffalo and Toronto are on the fast track. The Rangers and Pens seem to continually find talent. Columbus, Washington and Montreal are all way better than we are now. The only way for this organization to get to the next level is by acquiring top-flight talent. The only way that this organization can acquire said talent, is by drafting at the top of the round, and drafting well. That is why the team must tank. As painful as it would be, that is the only way out of this mess.

 

(Having said that, I recognize that talent is available in all rounds, but the Flyers seem incapable of finding/developing it. And, I think that the jury is still out regarding Hextall's ability to draft. Provorov was a no brainer.  Konecny has potential. The rest of it, who knows. In fact, The 2016 draft class has the makings of a disaster, right now.)

 

Why not keep Simmonds, Voracek and Provorov and get rid of everybody else.

So the the team is worse without G (power play or bust), Coots (sick of his lack of hustle and stupidity), Schenn (see G), Streit, Read, et al.......... Big deal, we suck now, so....

[ruxpin]

This thread makes my head hurt. 

[Howie58]

2 hours ago, caluso said:

My main question is this really a core that can win a championship?   Absolutely not.  The true core of this team should be: Voracek, Simmonds and Provorov. Everybody else should be available for the right price. 

 

I think you and many other members here have over-valued the "core." Coots, for example. I know that Murray has been a staunch supporter of his, and while his loyalty is admirable, it is misguided. The simple fact of the matter is Coots is nothing more than a fourth line player. He is not fit for this game, in this age. He has no speed, no work ethic, no passion. Not a guy to be paying 4.1 million per year to.

 

Then there is Schenn, who is a valuable power play asset but nothing more. Bad guy to be paying 5.1 million per year to.

 

The truth of the matter is, this losing streak could be the best thing to happen to the franchise in the long term. Let's face it, the team is  mediocre and has zero chance of competing for the Cup this year. If this losing streak is the impetus for a sell-off / tank job, so be it. Edmonton, Toronto and Buffalo are teams with very promising future's now who seized the opportunity to acquire top flight talent by tanking. It is our turn.

 

Which brings me to my last point: Chris Pryor has to go. The organization's ability to judge talent is laughable. The Rangers and Blackhawks are two teams that habitually acquire real talent with late round picks or free agents. The Flyers....not so much.

 

 

Caluso:

 

You make a lot of good points here. Pryor may be part of the problem but our unwillingness to accept poor performance for a few years to get some great picks has not been tolerated.  If we had two or three years running with picks like TK or Ivan P we might be in a different spot.  

 

But I agree we have not had linear progress. And it would be strange if we failed to make the playoffs this year. 

 

[ruxpin]

9 minutes ago, Howie58 said:

 

Caluso:

 

You make a lot of good points here. Pryor may be part of the problem but our unwillingness to accept poor performance for a few years to get some great picks has not been tolerated.  If we had two or three years running with picks like TK or Ivan P we might be in a different spot.  

 

But I agree we have not had linear progress. And it would be strange if we failed to make the playoffs this year. 

 

 But we have.  People have to have patience longer than an egg timer. 

 

No,  we're not challenging for a cup this year.  We're not supposed to be.   This IS the rebuild people think they're clamoring for.   Good lord. 

 

As for later round picks, I don't think people (this isn't directed at you, Howie) understand what they're talking about.  And 2016 being a disaster draft?   Again, no idea what they're talking about.  The starting goalie for team Canada and a really good C/LW and then some. 

 

Patience people.  Last year was an illusion.  This is about where we should expect.   And if you think Buffalo is on a fast track, again,  you haven't the slightest idea what  you're talking about. 

[Howie58]

Rux:

 

You and most of the people on this board have been around for five+years. This November was my fifth and it is probably longer for you....and we were vets on Philly.com. 

 

Your head is spinning because you're angry.  And you're angry because the re-engineering of the club is not happening...or it is a helluva lot slower than anyone imagined.

 

Hextall did his thing in LA. But it may or may not work here. I said it on today's game thread and say it here--Comcast is not going to let one of their signature properties sink too far....more games like the two they've televised this weekend and the local operators will rebel.  

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, Howie58 said:

Rux:

 

You and most of the people on this board have been around for five+years. This November was my fifth and it is probably longer for you....and we were vets on Philly.com. 

 

Your head is spinning because you're angry.  And you're angry because the re-engineering of the club is not happening...or it is a helluva lot slower than anyone imagined.

 

Hextall did his thing in LA. But it may or may not work here. I said it on today's game thread and say it here--Comcast is not going to let one of their signature properties sink too far....more games like the two they've televised this weekend and the local operators will rebel.  

I'm actually not angry.   I understand this is part of the process.  I'm okay with it.   I'm irritated with the "blow it up"  crap.  I think it's nonsense. 

[Howie58]

Rux:

 

You may be right. Last year was perhaps an illusion. But at least we seemed to be going in a good direction, particularly under a first year coach.  Losing is one thing...but we don't seem to be competing, and that is upsetting.

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, Howie58 said:

Rux:

 

You may be right. Last year was perhaps an illusion. But at least we seemed to be going in a good direction, particularly under a first year coach.  Losing is one thing...but we don't seem to be competing, and that is upsetting.

The lack of compete part is definitely troubling. 

 

If we are deluding ourselves with blowing it up,  the other part that makes me smack my head is the sparing of Voracek.   Why?   He's been as bad or worse as the rest of them.   He's trying to do too much and is making simply stupid plays.  That goes for a lot of them.   A bad streak will do that.  It'll hurt the confidence of some, and others will try to do it all themselves.   Until they win a couple and then it's fine for awhile. 

 

It's all part of the fact the cake isn't baked yet.  It's not even in the oven.  A lot of the ingredients aren't here yet. And we still have some wrong ingredients. 

 

We're getting there.  I'm 48. I've been to two Flyers' Cup parades.  I'm as tired of waiting for the next as anyone else.  I gave up being optimistic years ago.  That's how I got the smarmy reputation on here.  But this is working.  We just have to allow it time. 

 

That said,  I'm not yet convinced we have the right coach.  I'm not convinced he's not,  but the jury is still out. 

[Howie58]

Rux:

 

I am 58 and remember the Cup years...vividly. And I worry about being alive for a third. 

 

Your comments on Jake--yep, but I don't worry about his willingness or ability. Giroux--there I wonder about deterioration.  

http://www.espn.com/nhl/player/stats/_/id/3775/claude-giroux

 

His points may be OK...the plus minus is different. and this is his 10th year.  

We have four games before the All Star game. Three are against Metro rivals.  I am not much of a betting many but have to think those will be important games for Hakstol. Competitive losses are one thing. Another game or two like this weekend...your jury may come in with a verdict pretty soon.

 

[flyer4ever]

My opinion has been the same for a few years now, and that is blow it up. Sneaking into the playoffs does nothing for me. I was a teenager playing competitive hockey in the 70's so I felt the euphoria of the cup wins. That is what I want. Drafting at the 17 position does not get you players to build a cup team around. You need to draft in the top 3 for a year or 3 if you seriously want a cup contender. There is no other way. There are only 3 players on this roster who I believe can contribute to a cup. 9, 11 and 93. I am a huge Giroux fan but he is a diminishing asset, as is everyone else on the current team. If you hang on to players too long, your asset value drops. The NHL will continue to get younger, bigger and faster and careers will become shorter due to the severity of injuries, so you have to be realistic with your assets. I would much rather watch a young team that tries hard than this current group while the assets accumulate. Thats just me though.

[caluso]

5 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

My opinion has been the same for a few years now, and that is blow it up. Sneaking into the playoffs does nothing for me. I was a teenager playing competitive hockey in the 70's so I felt the euphoria of the cup wins. That is what I want. Drafting at the 17 position does not get you players to build a cup team around. You need to draft in the top 3 for a year or 3 if you seriously want a cup contender. There is no other way. There are only 3 players on this roster who I believe can contribute to a cup. 9, 11 and 93. I am a huge Giroux fan but he is a diminishing asset, as is everyone else on the current team. If you hang on to players too long, your asset value drops. The NHL will continue to get younger, bigger and faster and careers will become shorter due to the severity of injuries, so you have to be realistic with your assets. I would much rather watch a young team that tries hard than this current group while the assets accumulate. Thats just me though.

I agree. It is much easier to rebuild with Matthews or McDavid on your team, as opposed to Rubstov (whom I actually liked as a prospect, but not as much as Matthews)

And, Rux, "blowing it up" does not mean deviating from Hextall's plan of building from within; I agree with that philosophy. In fact, it should actually move things along much faster, assuming that the Flyers can identify and develop talent. And, that is my biggest concern, can they?

[caluso]

27 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

The lack of compete part is definitely troubling. 

 

If we are deluding ourselves with blowing it up,  the other part that makes me smack my head is the sparing of Voracek.   Why?   He's been as bad or worse as the rest of them.   He's trying to do too much and is making simply stupid plays.  That goes for a lot of them.   A bad streak will do that.  It'll hurt the confidence of some, and others will try to do it all themselves.   Until they win a couple and then it's fine for awhile. 

 

It's all part of the fact the cake isn't baked yet.  It's not even in the oven.  A lot of the ingredients aren't here yet. And we still have some wrong ingredients. 

 

We're getting there.  I'm 48. I've been to two Flyers' Cup parades.  I'm as tired of waiting for the next as anyone else.  I gave up being optimistic years ago.  That's how I got the smarmy reputation on here.  But this is working.  We just have to allow it time. 

 

That said,  I'm not yet convinced we have the right coach.  I'm not convinced he's not,  but the jury is still out. 

I agree that the compete level is lacking but why is that surprising? The team has been wildly inconsistent for at least 6 years. No one here can say that the team plays hard, plays smart, night in and night out. They don't. So why not rid ourselves of players who don't bring it every night: Coots, Schenn, Read, Streit......How can it hurt?

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, caluso said:

I agree that the compete level is lacking but why is that surprising? The team has been wildly inconsistent for at least 6 years. No one here can say that the team plays hard, plays smart, night in and night out. They don't. So why not rid ourselves of players who don't bring it every night: Coots, Schenn, Read, Streit......How can it hurt?

I don't have any problem with the specific names you mention.  I have a hard time believing Streit will be here past the trade deadline. 

 

Schenn is a nice piece that just doesn't fit here.  He could actually garner something decent. 

 

Read stopped being useful about 3 years ago. 

 

Couturier gets his own thread.   If that's "blowing it up,"  I think I'm okay. 

 

The rest will take care of itself as we replace by attrition.   We're getting there.  It's just a painful as hell ride. 

[murraycraven]

I believe if Couts was the 1st C this team would be undefeated!   Put G on the left wing n the 3rd line and we win a cup this year!