Neuvirth

[fan4ever]

If this man doesn't start the next game, I think I'll go batshit crazy!  He looked very good against a strong Blues team and deserves to play until he drops.

 

Elliot has proven that he needs to sit for a while and think about it 

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, fan4ever said:

Elliot has proven that he needs to sit for a while and think about it 

 

I know a few of us were joking about this same topic and a few including me, have been saying this for over a week now.

 

To me Neuvy is the starter and Elliot is the Flyer's version of the Stars Kari Let-one-in just an over paid backup.

 

The worst part is he is signed for next year too.

 

However i'm hoping one of either Lyon or Stolie can prove they are ready for backup duty in the NHL next year and maybe the can trade Elliot during the offseason or at the draft.

 

#fingerscrossed

[brelic]

Quote

The Flyers have now played five games with Michal Neuvirth in the net and over four of them he has allowed a total of four goals. Incredibly, he is 2-2 in those games. He was excellent against Los Angeles and Nashville and Florida. He was out of his mind last night. He and Provorov are THE reason they got two points Thursday night.

 

So, he better play tomorrow night. If he doesn't, there's something seriously wrong in Hakstol's judgment. We saw it with Mason on a number of occasions.

 

There's a big enough sample now that NEUVIRTH gives us the best chance to win. Isn't that why we have two goalies?

 

[sekkes85]

I would be shocked if Neuvirth doesn't get the start.  1a/b you have to ride whoever is playing better.  It's not like either one is the unquestionable #1 goalie.

[elmatus]

Neuvy definitely has been the better of the two. That said, I can't say I have a ton of faith in him either. Aside from one playoff round vs the Caps, he hasn't exactly been Vezina material since he's been in the O&B.

 

As it stands though, Neuvy is playing better, so he should get the nod until that changes -- or until someone coughs on him and he breaks a rib or whatever. I'm really not sure why Elliott keeps being given the lion's share of the starts.

 

I could see if Elliott had been signed as a top flight goalie option, but -- and this is important -- Elliott has never been that good. He's riding on a few solid years as part-time goalie of a team with a great d-corps, defensive system, and defensive coach. Mason would have been elite on those STL teams too.

[brelic]

7 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Neuvy definitely has been the better of the two. That said, I can't say I have a ton of faith in him either. Aside from one playoff round vs the Caps, he hasn't exactly been Vezina material since he's been in the O&B.

 

As it stands though, Neuvy is playing better, so he should get the nod until that changes -- or until someone coughs on him and he breaks a rib or whatever. I'm really not sure why Elliott keeps being given the lion's share of the starts.

 

I could see if Elliott had been signed as a top flight goalie option, but -- and this is important -- Elliott has never been that good. He's riding on a few solid years as part-time goalie of a team with a great d-corps, defensive system, and defensive coach. Mason would have been elite on those STL teams too.

 

Exactly. If Elliott had been signed as the #1 - with the salary that comes with it - ok, I get it. It's like having Price and Tokarski on your roster. 

 

But this is two middling goalies we're talking about, making roughly the same salary. They're as interchangeable as Weise, Lehtera, and Read.

 

[radoran]

38 minutes ago, brelic said:

But this is two middling goalies we're talking about, making roughly the same salary. They're as interchangeable as Weise, Lehtera, and Read.

 

Um... Yay?

 

[icehole]

I think neuvirth has as much talent and quickness as any goalie in the league.  For some reason though he is very inconsistent.  It seems like he hasn't been given a chance to get on a roll though.

 

I thought he was better than mason too, but for some reason mason was always the #1.

 

Elliot just looks like an old man in every way.  I had never seen his face before, so when I first saw it on tv, I was wondering who that 42 year old guy was that was on the TV.  He's slow and I don't know why the flyers had any interest in him.

[King Knut]

5 hours ago, fan4ever said:

If this man doesn't start the next game, I think I'll go batshit crazy!  He looked very good against a strong Blues team and deserves to play until he drops.

 

Elliot has proven that he needs to sit for a while and think about it 

 

Let's think about this for just a minute though.  

 

We know and Hextall has admitted that even he knows that Neuvy just isn't really stable enough health wise for a #1 goalie treatment.  55+games isn't going to happen for us with him.  He breaks down.  He gets hurt.  It's just what happens.  hell,  40 Games is probably not going to happen for him.

 

Now clearly as you obviously observed, he's playing much better than Elliott.  I don't think Elliott's been as bad as most here do lately, but clearly he hasn't been "GOOD" and I totally acknowledge that.

 

But it's obvious that they can't start Neuvy in the majority of games or he'll likely get hurt and lose more time.

 

So what if they use him in the Tougher games?  St. Louis was the best team in the league before last night.  Back to back games... Hakstol went with his weaker goalie in game 1 against the weaker (but still good) Blackhawks, and then he started his stronger goalie against the stronger team in St. Louis.  

 

What if Elliott gets the majority of the starts over the course of the season, but the team leans on Neuvy as the #1 guy against the tougher teams or more important games?

 

It's not what's done.  I get that.  But the Flyers are in a bit of a unique situation in which neither of their goalies is particularly stellar on his own and neither is intended to be hear for more than a few years, and the one that appears to be playing better right now has a clear track record of NOT being able to handle the workload of a true #1.  

 

Is a tandem with their 1A getting maybe 30-35 starts in key games and their 1B getting 47-52 starts in less notable match ups something this team is thinking about at this point?  

 

I'm feeling like the early going was to see whether Elliott could just emerge into a true #1.  He hasn't.  he likely won't.  But they know Neuvirth can't handle a true #1 workload.  Maybe their #1 is played more like a ringer than a work horse this year... until the future emerges from within the system over the next two seasons?

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I think neuvirth has as much talent and quickness as any goalie in the league.  For some reason though he is very inconsistent.  It seems like he hasn't been given a chance to get on a roll though.

 

I thought he was better than mason too, but for some reason mason was always the #1.

 

Elliot just looks like an old man in every way.  I had never seen his face before, so when I first saw it on tv, I was wondering who that 42 year old guy was that was on the TV.  He's slow and I don't know why the flyers had any interest in him.

 

Every time he's given the chance to get on a roll, he gets hurt.  It's that simple.  That's why he's being used as he is now.  Twice bitten four times shy.  

 

Neuvy was better than Mason his first year here.  But then he got hurt.

Mason was decidedly better than Neuvirth last year.  Neuwirth was pretty bad last year actually.  AND THEN HE GOT HURT.

 

Now Mason is gone and Elliott is here and playing not well at all (but not as poorly as many of us like to think), And Still Neuvirth is playing better-clearly.  But given virtually every season of his career at this point includes extended IR time, is it wise to afford him the opportunity to get on that "roll" your talking about?

 

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

I think neuvirth has as much talent and quickness as any goalie in the league.  For some reason though he is very inconsistent.  It seems like he hasn't been given a chance to get on a roll though.

 

I thought he was better than mason too, but for some reason mason was always the #1.

 

Elliot just looks like an old man in every way.  I had never seen his face before, so when I first saw it on tv, I was wondering who that 42 year old guy was that was on the TV.  He's slow and I don't know why the flyers had any interest in him.

 

As far as Elliott goes, what I've observed is similar to what you have... but that he tends to improve as the game goes on.  So like the rest of the team, he's soft and slow and stiff to start.  He overreacts as well, gets out of position and coughs up huge rebounds that he can't hope to get back into position to save.   Honestly (TRIGGER WARNING) he's given me PTSD flashbacks to Roman Cechmanek on occasion and that's not something my nerves can handle  anymore at my age.  

But as the game goes on he tends to settle in as the team settles in in front of him and he makes fewer of the above mistakes and misplays.  He makes huge key saves in 2nd and 3rd periods to keep the Flyers in these games or at least make it so their improbably comebacks remain within reach.  

 

The problem is that when your skaters have consistently slow starts to games, you really can't afford for your goalie to do the same.  Seems like something the training staff needs to work on with everyone.  

 

 

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, elmatus said:

Neuvy definitely has been the better of the two. That said, I can't say I have a ton of faith in him either. Aside from one playoff round vs the Caps, he hasn't exactly been Vezina material since he's been in the O&B.

 

As it stands though, Neuvy is playing better, so he should get the nod until that changes -- or until someone coughs on him and he breaks a rib or whatever. I'm really not sure why Elliott keeps being given the lion's share of the starts.

 

Except we know from experience that HE CAN'T.  he'll get hurt and then he will get zero of the starts until he gets better and the team will just have a middling Elliott getting worse and worse.  And what's even more frightening to me personally, is that Hakstol might start pulling back the forwards again and the goals will dry up at Even Strength just like last year.

 

NO THANK YOU.

 

I've read it someplace else and I've been hitting it hard in this thread:  Neuvirth is the 1a but he should get fewer overall starts and those starts should be against better teams or key matchups.  

 

If you have two games back to back, play him against the better team and Elliott against the weaker one (like they did Wednesday night and last night).

If you have two games in sequence and one is in division and the other game is against the Jets or Wild... play Neuvy against the divisional rival in the 4 point game and play Elliott against the Western Conference 2 point game.  

 

At least while Neuvirth is playing better, they can't just roll with him and play him all the time, they have to play him at most half the games (probably less) and they have to play him intelligently.

 

Otherwise, you'll just be stuck starting the one playing crappier hockey in EVERY game until Neuvirth recovers from whatever injury his body gave out on us over.  

[King Knut]

5 hours ago, brelic said:

 

So, he better play tomorrow night. If he doesn't, there's something seriously wrong in Hakstol's judgment. We saw it with Mason on a number of occasions.

 

There's a big enough sample now that NEUVIRTH gives us the best chance to win. Isn't that why we have two goalies?

 

 

I DO NOT AGREE WITH THIS.  I'm going to be a broken record now for bit in this thread and I apologize.

You're absolutely right.  Neuvirth gives the team the better chance to win.

But that is erased if he's injured, which we know he'll be if he's overworked.  Hell it might happen if he's not, but we KNOW it'll happen if he is.  Hextall even said this (it's why we have Elliott at all and aren't going with Neuvy and Lyon this year).

 

Despite being the better option at this point, Neuvirth has to be limited to 30-35 games maximum -ESPECIALLY IF THIS TEAM LOOKS TO MAKE THE PLAYOFFS.

 

Because if he gets hurt, then you have NO CHOICE but to play your worse option in almost every game (setting aside the fact that I think Hakstol was an idiot not playing Stolarz more last year and that I think he'd be an idiot for not playing Lyon more if he had to this year, but moving on...)

 

Solution:  Play Neuvy against the better teams or the more key matchups.

 

Blackshawks and Blues back to back?  Start Elliott against the weaker Hawks and Neuvy against the stronger Blues.  Play the odds.  

Going forward, if you have three games in a week and two are against Western Conference teams and one is against a divisional rival, play Neuvy against the divisional rival and Elliott against the west.

 

See what I mean?  I think they HAVE to give Elliott the lion's share of starts so Neuvy doesn't break down because they will NEED Neuvy for key games and (hopefully) the playoffs.  

 

It's a unique situation because we aren't building a future on either goalie and we basically have ESP on what's going to happen with Neuvirth if he starts getting the majority of the starts.  

[King Knut]

3 hours ago, sekkes85 said:

I would be shocked if Neuvirth doesn't get the start.  1a/b you have to ride whoever is playing better.  It's not like either one is the unquestionable #1 goalie.

 

I definitely think Elliott has to start against the Avalanche.  See my posts above for why.  Neuvy is better.  Elliott has to get more starts... especially against weaker teams.  

[King Knut]

Let me take this a step further and dole out the rest of the year by this logic:

If they go something similar to this all season, Elliott ends up with something like 48 games against weaker teams or less important games and Neuvy ends up with 34 games against stronger teams or more important games.

11/4-Avs:  Elliott

11/9-Hawks:  Neuvy

11/11-Wild:  Elliott

11/14-Wild:  Elliott 

11/16-Jets:  Neuvy

11/18-Flames:  Elliott

11/21-Canucks: Elliott

11/22-Isles:  Neuvy

11/24-Isles: Elliott (because...)

11/27-Pens: Neuvy

1128-Sharks: Elliott

12/2-Boston: Neuvy

12/4-Flames: Elliott

12/6-Oilers: Neuvy 

12/7-Cancuks: Elliott

12/12-Leafs: Neuvy

12/14-Sabers: Elliott

12/16-Stars: Elliott (maybe Neuvy if they're on a bad run and need a win or need to make a statement)

12/18-Kings Elliott

12/20-Wings: Neuvy

12/22-Sabres:  Elliott

12/23-Jackets: Neuvy

12/29-Panthers: Elliott

12/30-Bolts: Neuvy

 

I think this gives the team the best chance to win the games they need to to get into the playoffs. 

It will get tricky by the end of the season when all the games are conference and divisional, and how to parse those games out will come into focus as the stronger and weaker divisional and conference teams emerge over the larger sample size.  

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, icehole said:

 

I think neuvirth has as much talent and quickness as any goalie in the league.  For some reason though he is very inconsistent.  It seems like he hasn't been given a chance to get on a roll though

 

i've said this before, he was amazing in Hershey and very good for short stretches with the Caps, his problem is his body is fragile and he can't get on a roll because he can't stay available to play long enough.

It is frustrating as a fan, but imagine being the player knowing your skill level and constantly being betrayed by your body.

 

[mojo1917]

49 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Maybe their #1 is played more like a ringer than a work horse this year... until the future emerges from within the system over the next two seasons?

this is an interesting idea.

[icehole]

52 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

is it wise to afford him the opportunity to get on that "roll" your talking about?

 

 

I don't think it could hurt (no pun intended).  Wouldn't you want the best guy playing if it gives you the best chance to win?  

 

If he gets injured, back to Elliot.  No big deal.

[King Knut]

16 minutes ago, icehole said:

I don't think it could hurt (no pun intended).  Wouldn't you want the best guy playing if it gives you the best chance to win?  

 

If he gets injured, back to Elliot.  No big deal.

 

I don't agree with this.  

 

If you know Neuvy is fragile, why play him against weaker teams Elliott could likely beat when that might help you keep Neuvy in the lineup and active against Stronger teams (like St. Louis or eventually Tampa or Columbus) that Elliott is less likely to beat?

 

I really think by being wiser and more strategically savvy about this, it could help them win more games over the course of the season.  

[icehole]

7 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I don't agree with this.  

 

If you know Neuvy is fragile, why play him against weaker teams Elliott could likely beat when that might help you keep Neuvy in the lineup and active against Stronger teams (like St. Louis or eventually Tampa or Columbus) that Elliott is less likely to beat?

 

I really think by being wiser and more strategically savvy about this, it could help them win more games over the course of the season.  

Weaker teams Elliot could likely beat?  He just lost to a 0-10 team at home.  Although I wouldn't put that loss on him, are there really that many teams you can afford to throw out weaker players and assume you'll get the win?

 

The Flyers have played a little better than last season but they are still a bottom half team.  There's no gimmes for them, and the only chance they have to do anything is to ice the best team they have.

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, icehole said:

Weaker teams Elliot could likely beat?  He just lost to a 0-10 team at home.  Although I wouldn't put that loss on him, are there really that many teams you can afford to throw out weaker players and assume you'll get the win?

 

The Flyers have played a little better than last season but they are still a bottom half team.  There's no gimmes for them, and the only chance they have to do anything is to ice the best team they have.

 

I don't assume anyone gets the win.  I'm talking about playing the odds to give you the better chance of winning more games over the course of the season. 

 

And your point about Elliott is perfect support of my reasoning.  The Flyers probably Can't Afford to NEED to play him every night.  If they try to play Neuvirth every night, they'll end up NEEDING to play Elliott every night. 

 

In the long run, if you can safely assume you're only getting 30-35 games from the better of the two goalies (and I think Hextall safely assumes that based on his comments in the off season), you might as well try to maximize those 30-35 games.  Why play him against a weaker non conference Avalanche team now if it increases the chances that you won't get to play him against the Penguins or Capitals or Blue Jackets or Islanders later?

 

Again, this is all a bit academic at this point.  Neuvy passes the eye test and has been consistently better over his fewer starts, and leads the league in GAA and Save % (tied) but Elliott has beaten strong teams and the games he's lost have been marked by crappier efforts by the team in front of him.  

 

[icehole]

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

 

I don't assume anyone gets the win.  I'm talking about playing the odds to give you the better chance of winning more games over the course of the season. 

 

And your point about Elliott is perfect support of my reasoning.  The Flyers probably Can't Afford to NEED to play him every night.  If they try to play Neuvirth every night, they'll end up NEEDING to play Elliott every night. 

 

In the long run, if you can safely assume you're only getting 30-35 games from the better of the two goalies (and I think Hextall safely assumes that based on his comments in the off season), you might as well try to maximize those 30-35 games.  Why play him against a weaker non conference Avalanche team now if it increases the chances that you won't get to play him against the Penguins or Capitals or Blue Jackets or Islanders later?

 

Again, this is all a bit academic at this point.  Neuvy passes the eye test and has been consistently better over his fewer starts, and leads the league in GAA and Save % (tied) but Elliott has beaten strong teams and the games he's lost have been marked by crappier efforts by the team in front of him.  

 

I sort of see what you're saying, but I still think you have to play the better goalie for 60%+ of the games.  I think they played it right for this past back to back.  Chicago was the lesser team, and I don't know if they get the win last night with Elliot in net.

 

When I say play Neuvy, I just mean that he should be the number 1 getting the majority of games.  So far that has not been the case.

[Jam1986]

with you!

[King Knut]

27 minutes ago, icehole said:

When I say play Neuvy, I just mean that he should be the number 1 getting the majority of games.  So far that has not been the case.

 

And I believe that's intentionally being done in an effort to help keep him in the lineup.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, King Knut said:

I definitely think Elliott has to start against the Avalanche. 

 

Hell no. Ride the hot hand they have ground to hold and make up.

 

Don't be worried about Neuvy getting hurt.

 

Play him. Sure watch him and when he shows signs of fatigue like he needs a break give him one.

 

Sure use both when back to back are to be played but till shown otherwise you ride the guy who is playing well.