Voracek Taking Over

[King Knut]

Most people here hate him and want him out of the city.

 

From the looks of things so far this season, this guy is the team's offensive production heart and soul.  

Revitalize Coots and G's careers?  No problem.

Slide him with Val and Raff?  No problem. 

 

The fact of the matter seems to be that if this guy cares to be on, he takes whoever's on the ice with him.

 

I just wish it was a guy with a little more consistency.  

 

The other question of course is whether Coots and G can keep it up at even strength with Simmer (who has been in need of a wake up himself).  

 

As much as I hate breaking up the Gingers, even if that Primary 1st line scoring is the cost for achieving secondary scoring, I think it will result in more wins.  

If teams don't have to choose what line they commit to shutting down, it's easier for them to beat you.  It's like having a great run game, but no passing attack.  Defenses stack the line and shut down the one thing you can do and beat you easily.  

 

 

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

Jake gets a lot of shade here, he is talented no question. 

He is producing to his contract. 

He is driving production no matter what line he is on. 

I think with a game like his, because as @brelic puts it ,his game is chaotic and panic filled, there are sublime moments both for and against. Right now the "fors" are winning.

I think he's a good player and he cares about winning,  it's not Jeff Carter hate ,but I do find some of it to be confounding.

I get it when he over stick handles and loses possession or goes 1 vs 4  it is frustrating when it doesn't go well, but there are times when it does. There aren't many players who think they can succeed going 1 vs 4, I'll take the guy who thinks he can and wants to every day. 

I find it laughable that people think he's untradeable or his contract is, he's a ++ skill player a + skater with size those guys don't grow on trees.  

I'm glad he "going good" this year.

 

 

 

 

[Podein25]

Honestly, my main problem with Jake is his lack of finish/scoring touch. He gets chances, because of the skills he does possess, that he cannot put away. It's frustrating. But you could say the same about lots of players. 

 

Plus, he has a propensity to make really boneheaded plays at times. So there's that I guess.

[brelic]

13 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Jake gets a lot of shade here, he is talented no question. 

He is producing to his contract. 

He is driving production no matter what line he is on. 

I think with a game like his, because as @brelic puts it ,his game is chaotic and panic filled, there are sublime moments both for and against. Right now the "fors" are winning.

I think he's a good player and he cares about winning,  it's not Jeff Carter hate ,but I do find some of it to be confounding.

I get it when he over stick handles and loses possession or goes 1 vs 4  it is frustrating when it doesn't go well, but there are times when it does. There aren't many players who think they can succeed going 1 vs 4, I'll take the guy who thinks he can and wants to every day. 

I find it laughable that people think he's untradeable or his contract is, he's a ++ skill player a + skater with size those guys don't grow on trees.  

I'm glad he "going good" this year.

 

 

 

 

 

For me, I find he's a frustrating player to watch. For every great pass or play he makes, there are 10 that make you scratch your head. Of course, we have the benefit of the view from above. But in the end, he's helping his team more than he is costing them. Yes, there were a few egregious examples that *cost* us games lately, but his production far outweighs the negatives. He is what he is.

 

It's more dangerous with players like Patrick or Sanheim, who cost us goals because of rookie mistakes but don't yet make up for it in other ways. Sanheim is getting some looks offensively, but Patrick doesn't really contribute very much at this point, which I why I figure he's getting very limited and sheltered minutes. There was a point last night where his line had just gotten on the ice, and they iced the puck. Hakstol switched to the 4th line for the DZ faceoff, they cleared the zone, and Patrick's line came back on. That's a clear sign that the coach doesn't have confidence in that line to get it done defensively - and he's right. Patrick is very green, and his lines have been brutal. 

 

So, where is the balance between letting rookies make mistakes and reigning them in when they aren't bringing value in other ways? They'll figure it out, of course... but I think Patrick needs a winger like Voracek or Filppula to help him along - TK and Weise aren't cutting it.

 

 

[RJ8812]

This summer will be the perfect time to trade him. We should get a nice return on him and not have to retain any salary. Hopefully Hextall can take advantage of a team this summer, especially one that strikes out in the UFA market 

 

A team like CAR (tons of cap space), who are on the cusp but may need more top end talent, could be interested in the player like Voracek. 

[King Knut]

2 hours ago, RJ8812 said:

This summer will be the perfect time to trade him. We should get a nice return on him and not have to retain any salary. Hopefully Hextall can take advantage of a team this summer, especially one that strikes out in the UFA market 

 

A team like CAR (tons of cap space), who are on the cusp but may need more top end talent, could be interested in the player like Voracek. 

 

 

But to my point... why would they trade him?  He's producing better than anyone.  

[mojo1917]

2 hours ago, brelic said:

but I think Patrick needs a winger like Voracek or Filppula to help him along - TK and Weise aren't cutting it.

Patrick could for sure use a veteran presence when he's on the ice.  Dale Weise isn't the guy, he looked lazy in the condensed game i watched. 

I can see trying Patrick and Koneckny together see if there is maybe lifelong chemistry to terrorize the league with, hyperbole for sure.  But it would be pretty awesome to have a couple of young guys building that rapport early in their careers.

 

Patrick is a mature guy for his age, I like him, I know he's looked average, a lot, but there is skill and vision in that package.  I think he'll figure it out I agree that having a Voracek or Fillpula would speed that process along.

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, mojo1917 said:

Patrick could for sure use a veteran presence when he's on the ice.  Dale Weise isn't the guy, he looked lazy in the condensed game i watched. 

I can see trying Patrick and Koneckny together see if there is maybe lifelong chemistry to terrorize the league with, hyperbole for sure.  But it would be pretty awesome to have a couple of young guys building that rapport early in their careers.

 

Patrick is a mature guy for his age, I like him, I know he's looked average, a lot, but there is skill and vision in that package.  I think he'll figure it out I agree that having a Voracek or Fillpula would speed that process along.

 

Patrick's skill with the puck is absolutely elite.  He's learning the NHL game in order to get himself in the places he needs to be to capitalize on that.  

[Podein25]

6 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Dale Weise isn't the guy, he looked lazy in the condensed game i watched. 

 

Trust me, he looked lazy in the uncondensed game as well

[radoran]

I certainly don't "hate" Voracek, but I would hope that someone who is "taking over" would be "on Pace" for more than 21 goals.

 

Especially for a team that hasn't been higher than 20th in goals for over the past 4 years and sits at 23rd in the league as we write this.

 

Also given that Voracek has never scored more than 23 in a season.

 

If they could flip Voracek for a 30 goal scorer, I'd seriously consider it.

[Podein25]

1 minute ago, radoran said:

I certainly don't "hate" Voracek, but I would hope that someone who is "taking over" would be "on Pace" for more than 21 goals.

 

Especially for a team that hasn't been higher than 20th in goals for over the past 4 years and sits at 23rd in the league as we write this.

 

Also given that Voracek has never scored more than 23 in a season.

 

If they could flip Voracek for a 30 goal scorer, I'd seriously consider it.

 

#hater

[King Knut]

17 minutes ago, radoran said:

I certainly don't "hate" Voracek, but I would hope that someone who is "taking over" would be "on Pace" for more than 21 goals.

 

Especially for a team that hasn't been higher than 20th in goals for over the past 4 years and sits at 23rd in the league as we write this.

 

Also given that Voracek has never scored more than 23 in a season.

 

If they could flip Voracek for a 30 goal scorer, I'd seriously consider it.

 

Why?  He's on pace for 79 assists. That would have lead the league last year.   Each one of those assists is a goal scored.  That's a good number, but not insane number of assists.  

IF he paces out to 100 points even, wouldn't we be thrilled regardless of whether it's 21 goals and 79 assists or 50 goals and 50 assists?

Last year McDavid Scored 70 Assists and 30 goals.  Backstrom was second with 63 Assists and 23 goals.  Getzlaf, Zetterberg, Hedman, Karlson, & Johansson all scored fewer goals than Jake's current pace and put up WAY fewer assists.  what's wrong with Jake being more of a play maker?  

 

If he scores 79 assists and 100 points are you really going to get on his case for not scoring breaking 30 goals and scoring 110 points?

It's all goals for the Flyers.

 

Let's see what happens with him playing off the top line.  I still have questions.  

 

Can Simmonds shift to being a puck carrying set up man for Giroux and Couturier or can Couturier shift to being more the zone entry guy that Jake was (seems an easier shift) so Wayne can bang home to goals?  Last night their chemistry is not was not as sharp.  

 

Can Voracek simultaneously continue to enhance 2nd line scoring from the likes of Val and Raffl?  

 

IF 

 

 

 

 

 

[brelic]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

Patrick could for sure use a veteran presence when he's on the ice.  Dale Weise isn't the guy, he looked lazy in the condensed game i watched. 

I can see trying Patrick and Koneckny together see if there is maybe lifelong chemistry to terrorize the league with, hyperbole for sure.  But it would be pretty awesome to have a couple of young guys building that rapport early in their careers.

 

Patrick is a mature guy for his age, I like him, I know he's looked average, a lot, but there is skill and vision in that package.  I think he'll figure it out I agree that having a Voracek or Fillpula would speed that process along.

 

Yes, I get the Patrick / Konecny experiment, and maybe over time they will be the top dogs. They both definitely have unrefined high end skill - so I'm not worried about that long term.

 

I'm more worried about Patrick, TK, Sanheim, and the other young pups continually making mistakes and then getting sub-10 minute TOI. That seems counter-productive to their development.

 

I would think that shuffling the lines to give Patrick an experienced, talented veteran (NOT Weise or Lehtera) might make the coach feel like he can play more minutes without getting too exposed.

 

I feel the same way with Sanheim - give him MacDonald or Hagg. Manning is fine with a veteran, but not great with a rookie.

 

Then again, Manning and Ghost is kinda gross too. Lol.

 

[RJ8812]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

 

But to my point... why would they trade him?  He's producing better than anyone.  

 Because it's unlikely he continues this production in 4-5 years once our team should be ready to contend. 

[radoran]

@King Knut

 

I hear what you're saying - I do - and I fully recognize that assists lead to goals.

 

But (there's always a but) the thing this team is in desperate need of is goal scoring. And that's been the case throughout Voracek's time here. Putting up gaudy point totals is great, but if the team is consistently in the bottom third of goals for in the league, it's not necessarily the most helpful.

 

I'm not saying "trade him NOW" - I am saying if a deal came along to get a young sniper goal scorer, I'd seriously consider it.

 

It is POSSIBLE that that goal scorer is in the Flyers' system - but can the team afford to wait 2-3 more years in the bottom third to find out AND is Voracek still the assist machine his is today when that happens?

 

Open questions with many varied answers.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, RJ8812 said:

 Because it's unlikely he continues this production in 4-5 years once our team should be ready to contend. 

 

A) I don't think it'll take 4-5 years.

B) what pray tell will they do in between then and now?

 

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

@King Knut

 

I hear what you're saying - I do - and I fully recognize that assists lead to goals.

 

But (there's always a but) the thing this team is in desperate need of is goal scoring. And that's been the case throughout Voracek's time here. Putting up gaudy point totals is great, but if the team is consistently in the bottom third of goals for in the league, it's not necessarily the most helpful.

 

I'm not saying "trade him NOW" - I am saying if a deal came along to get a young sniper goal scorer, I'd seriously consider it.

 

It is POSSIBLE that that goal scorer is in the Flyers' system - but can the team afford to wait 2-3 more years in the bottom third to find out AND is Voracek still the assist machine his is today when that happens?

 

Open questions with many varied answers.

 

 

I just feel like that goal scoring problem very specifically is coming from the middle 6.

Without moving Voracek to the middle six, it's unreasonable to expect him to score goals and put up massive amounts of assists.

Now that they HAVE moved him to the middle six, let's see if he can pick up the goal scoring for his line mates there and if G and Coots and Simmer can not cool off at the same time.

 

If  deal comes along, sure you gotta take it.  I'd have traded him in the off season for Pasternak when he was being a pain in the butt.  Kid's for real.  

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

5 hours ago, Podein25 said:

Honestly, my main problem with Jake is his lack of finish/scoring touch. He gets chances, because of the skills he does possess, that he cannot put away. It's frustrating. But you could say the same about lots of players. 

 

Plus, he has a propensity to make really boneheaded plays at times. So there's that I guess.

 

 

Yes and his shade he has earned like it or not. Many many countless times i have seen him bobble the puck and kill puck cycles and he can't blame anyone but himself.

 

He needs to calm down and stop handling it like a damn grenade to start with....take some meds to calm his nerves or something.

 

He has the skill we have seen it....he is just struggling to be consistently good....and i don't know if he feels pressure from his huge deal or what. Sometimes from his responses to the media i think the Philly media is getting to him.

 

He wouldn't be the first the love to stir the pot or even create something when it isn't there.

 

Yet i wouldn't say i hate him. But i can/won't speak for everyone. Some may. I just want him to get his head out his arse and play to potential. Do that and there won't be issues like we see with him.

 

[Podein25]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

He needs to calm down and stop handling it like a damn grenade to start with....take some meds to calm his nerves or something.

 

Agreed. Smoke a little spliff or something. I've never seen anything quite like it with him. It's like he's got the yips. 

[radoran]

53 minutes ago, King Knut said:

I just feel like that goal scoring problem very specifically is coming from the middle 6.

Without moving Voracek to the middle six, it's unreasonable to expect him to score goals and put up massive amounts of assists.

Now that they HAVE moved him to the middle six, let's see if he can pick up the goal scoring for his line mates there and if G and Coots and Simmer can not cool off at the same time.

 

Well, I get that in this instance. But the problem is a long-term one over the past four years where a team built around Giroux and Voracek has been in the lowest scoring third of the league. And that Voracek has topped out at 23 goals in a season in his career and Giroux has topped 25 twice, the last time in 13-14.

 

With a one-line team that scores a ton on the power play, that one line will feed off itself to put up the points. Meet the other GingerTwins - Henrik and Daniel.

 

Add in Simmonds and Schenn and you basically have the Flyers' goal scoring because both of them outscored Giroux and Voracek the past two years.

 

One line, power play teams don't do much in the playoffs even if they get there. Ask Washington.

 

So, yes, the rationale is to spread out the top line and we shall see how effective it is. To be honest, by the numbers, although still in the bottom of the league, they are scoring roughly .25 more goals per game than the past three seasons. And, of course, Simmonds has been playing like a guy who's been on the receiving end of extensive dental surgery for much of the season.

 

The real question is whether Patrick, Konecny, Weal and Filppula can get it going. A rookie, a second year guy, a guy about to play his 60th NHL game at 25, and Vinny Lecavalier's Finnish Cousin

 

Pinch me.

[murraycraven]

1 hour ago, King Knut said:

 

A) I don't think it'll take 4-5 years.

B) what pray tell will they do in between then and now?

 

 

 

Just curios but how far out do you see it being?   I see 4 years minimum frankly... 

[King Knut]

5 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

Just curios but how far out do you see it being?   I see 4 years minimum frankly... 

 

I honestly think that will depend on what they do about the coaching situation. 

 

It's my position that Hakstol has directly cost this team At least 8 points.  Maybe as much as 12.  

 

They're not a competitor now, but I honestly believe the talent on this team should make it a playoff team and that experience would make them competitive within 2-3 seasons.  

 

But the coach and the GM are not currently putting the talent they have assembled in positions to develop at the best case scenario, so if nothing changes, you may be right.  

 

 

 

[King Knut]

51 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Well, I get that in this instance. But the problem is a long-term one over the past four years where a team built around Giroux and Voracek has been in the lowest scoring third of the league. And that Voracek has topped out at 23 goals in a season in his career and Giroux has topped 25 twice, the last time in 13-14.

 

With a one-line team that scores a ton on the power play, that one line will feed off itself to put up the points. Meet the other GingerTwins - Henrik and Daniel.

 

Add in Simmonds and Schenn and you basically have the Flyers' goal scoring because both of them outscored Giroux and Voracek the past two years.

 

One line, power play teams don't do much in the playoffs even if they get there. Ask Washington.

 

So, yes, the rationale is to spread out the top line and we shall see how effective it is. To be honest, by the numbers, although still in the bottom of the league, they are scoring roughly .25 more goals per game than the past three seasons. And, of course, Simmonds has been playing like a guy who's been on the receiving end of extensive dental surgery for much of the season.

 

The real question is whether Patrick, Konecny, Weal and Filppula can get it going. A rookie, a second year guy, a guy about to play his 60th NHL game at 25, and Vinny Lecavalier's Finnish Cousin

 

Pinch me.

 

we'll here's the crux, right? 

 

I still contend that the biggest problem with the middle six has been Lehtera and Weise.  These guys are dragging everyone they play with down.  

 

Maybe it it makes sense to "tank" in a different way, in the name of experience. 

 

Have Patrick center Giroux and Simmonds. 

 

Have Coots center Weal and Konecny

 

Have Vecchione center Filppula and Voracek

 

stick Raffl back with Leier and Laughton to chew up minutes because hey, they worked. 

 

Everyone young plays with a vet to optimize development. 

 

They'll lose, but maybe they'll get better faster. 

[murraycraven]

16 hours ago, King Knut said:

 

I honestly think that will depend on what they do about the coaching situation. 

 

It's my position that Hakstol has directly cost this team At least 8 points.  Maybe as much as 12.  

 

They're not a competitor now, but I honestly believe the talent on this team should make it a playoff team and that experience would make them competitive within 2-3 seasons.  

 

But the coach and the GM are not currently putting the talent they have assembled in positions to develop at the best case scenario, so if nothing changes, you may be right.  

 

 

 

 

 

what you mean sitting TK, Sanheima and Patrick in the 3rd is a bad thing?   LOL

[brelic]

13 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

 

 

what you mean sitting TK, Sanheima and Patrick in the 3rd is a bad thing?   LOL

 

So, I wonder how much of it was benching those three, versus rewarding the other 13-14 guys who had much better games? There's no question in my mind that the Laughton line deserved much more ice time than the Patrick line on that given night. Same with the other two lines, right? 

 

Plus, Patrick's line was -2, and just did not look good. Nothing wrong with rewarding the guys who play well.

 

Of course, if this keeps up long term, it's a problem for a bunch of reasons, one of which is it doesn't help NP's development to be playing 8 minutes a night. I think the game against Calgary was the exception to the rule - he's averaging 12:17 for the season, which is about where he was before the injury.

 

So, really, it's an overblown story imo.