Karlsson

[JR Ewing]

22 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

I would think so, too.   And like @JR Ewing said, at this stage of his career he probably wouldn't want to go to a rebuild.

 

What would Karlsson look like in Edmonton? He could be Paul Coffey to McDavid's Gretzky. 

 

Astounding player, and just from a hockey standpoint, I would be over the moon. But, the realist in me knows that it's just too damned much money to wrap up in 3 players.

 

[ruxpin]

Just now, JR Ewing said:

 

Astounding player, and just from a hockey standpoint, I would be over the moon. But, the realist in me knows that it's just too damned much money to wrap up in 3 players.

 

 

Yeah, I completely agree.   But man, could that be fun.

 

I was just looking quickly.  Most of the contenders don't have the cap space.  I think you're the one said that.

The only real sleeper (because they have the cap space) is Toronto.    It wouldn't be the first time JVR was traded for a defenseman.   I don't think that happens, especially but not only because they're in the same division.

 

San Jose has the cap space, as well.   But good lord, if they got Burns going and had Karlsson...

[flyer4ever]

If the old adage about getting the best player wins the trade, then there is nobody in this organization not named Ivan that I wouldn't include in a deal to get Karlsson. He is in the top 3 in the league. He was a man amongst boys in the playoffs last year.

[murraycraven]

Karlsson is the epitome of a "franchise player" when it comes to the NHL.   *If* you have a real shot at getting him I would not blink an eye....

 

As @flyer4ever said.... anyone not named Prov would be considered.   Obviously the money would need to work but this is more of a fantasy trade situation.   I would be shocked if the Sens are really considering trading him.  

[OccamsRazor]

Flyers will not be in this. I think Sens will send Karlsson out west.

 

I can see to a team like Winnipeg or even Dallas getting involved. Maybe even Vegas.

[King Knut]

21 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

So i don't want to hi jack the thread talking about Neuvy and all.

 

Back to the Karlsson trade. He has already said he wants to be paid what he is worth......so what is that about 10 mill per???

 

Not sure the Fyers want to move their Dmen they have collected for a guy like this unless they take a good chunk of salary back!

 

Just a fantasy trade i guess.

 

But hey since we are talking fantasy how about Captain for Captain.......Geroo is form Ottawa....and would be a good cash move.

 

Flyers are deep at center!!!

 

What say all??? CRAZY???

 

Giroux is no longer a center.  He's one of the best LW's in the league now.  Those don't grow on trees and we are not deep at LW.  

[elmatus]

2 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

If the old adage about getting the best player wins the trade, then there is nobody in this organization not named Ivan that I wouldn't include in a deal to get Karlsson. He is in the top 3 in the league. He was a man amongst boys in the playoffs last year.

 

50 minutes ago, murraycraven said:

Karlsson is the epitome of a "franchise player" when it comes to the NHL.   *If* you have a real shot at getting him I would not blink an eye....

 

As @flyer4ever said.... anyone not named Prov would be considered.   Obviously the money would need to work but this is more of a fantasy trade situation.   I would be shocked if the Sens are really considering trading him.  

 

This does make sense to me... Karlsson is one of very few players in the league who can make a claim for being the best player in all of hockey for very long stretches of time. That's a hard thing to pass up for sure...

 

That said, it definitely would fly in the face of Hexy's plan. I have a hard time thinking he'll trade for any 27 year olds, unless he somehow gets the deal done for relatively cheap. He's been very consistent in his messaging -- this team is to be built from the ground up via the youth movement. Adding a 27 year old, no matter how great he is (and he is), definitely runs counter to the game plan.

 

I can't see a Ghost + Voracek for Karlsson trade. I'm not saying it would be a bad move necessarily, but I can't see it. It's just not Hexy's style imo. 

 

That said, as far as trading Voracek goes, I have no problems with it. He seems to me like a prime example of a player whose value will never be higher.

[OccamsRazor]

46 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Those don't grow on trees and we are not deep at LW

 

 

Sure and neither do 27 year old arguably best Dmen in the league hitting their prime.

 

So you have to pay to play.

 

Forwards are easier to come by than Dmen of his caliber.

 

You can find LWs who can chip in 28 goals a year cheaper than 9 mill...right?

[ruxpin]

53 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Maybe even Vegas.

 

Yeah.   So long as he's willing to waive his NTC for them, I could see this, especially if they continue to play as they are and he has a shot at the playoffs.   Someone said earlier that one of the strikes against the Flyers for his waiving his NTC is that he may not want to go to a rebuild.  The same would be true about an expansion, but they're a weird expansion.

 

The Jets have the Cap space.   And Karlsson with Big Buff would be interesting.   I'd be worried for them because they have several players who would soon need raises (Laine after next season), but this would seem like a good landing spot.

 

Ottawa is too cheep for this, but Subban for Karlsson.  Can you see Lavy with a Karlsson back there?   Nashville would have to eat some salary and I don't think they have the space if they do.

 

If Ottawa were to stay in conference but not in division, watch out for New Jersey.

[ruxpin]

6 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

You can find LWs who can chip in 28 goals a year cheaper than 9 mill...right?

 

Broken Record Alert:    Get Hoffman in the deal and you have your 25+ goal/year shooter.   Voracek is putting up points, and that's great.  But we don't have a legitimate shooter.  Hoffman would be that.

[elmatus]

3 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Broken Record Alert:    Get Hoffman in the deal and you have your 25+ goal/year shooter.   Voracek is putting up points, and that's great.  But we don't have a legitimate shooter.  Hoffman would be that.

 

I can't see any GM packaging Karlsson and Hoffman together. If somehow Hex can get both of them for Voracek + Ghost or whatever was mentioned in this thread, I really hope Hex pulls the trigger and just walks away. That's a steal. Full stop.

[King Knut]

10 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

 

Sure and neither do 27 year old arguably best Dmen in the league hitting their prime.

 

So you have to pay to play.

 

Forwards are easier to come by than Dmen of his caliber.

 

You can find LWs who can chip in 28 goals a year cheaper than 9 mill...right?

 

I would love to have Karlsson, but...

 

A) He's going to be 30 when this contract is up.  Are you going to give him a huge sweetheart deal when he's 30?  

B) Are the Flyers going to actually compete in intervening year and a half just because they get Karlsson?

C) Are you sure they're going to compete in the next year and a half with Karlsson if it takes giving up one of their two best forwards to do it?

D) Karlsson doesn't take faceoffs.

E) Karlsson doesn't clear the porch (where most goals are getting in on Elliott)

F) As much as the world's best D man would be cool, the Defense is the thing I'm the least worried about at this point.  

 

I want him too.  He was phenomenal.  But he we trade Jake or G for Karlsson, we'll be in exactly the same boat as the Senators are and he won't play any better for us than he has for them this year.   IT's fun to think about, but I don't think it's realistically a good fit.  

 

Like I said, if there was a UFA RW over the next two years who could replace some of what Jake does, I'd pull this trigger in a heartbeat.  

 

 

 

[King Knut]

12 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Broken Record Alert:    Get Hoffman in the deal and you have your 25+ goal/year shooter.   Voracek is putting up points, and that's great.  But we don't have a legitimate shooter.  Hoffman would be that.

 

Voracek has made Couturier and Raffl of all people into legitimate shooters this season.  

Simmonds and Schenn each scored more goals than Hoffman last year, but neither one was a legitimate shooter for us.  Why is Hoffman different and who is going to feed him the puck and make the plays to get it into the zone?

 

  

 

[elmatus]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

A) He's going to be 30 when this contract is up.  Are you going to give him a huge sweetheart deal when he's 30?  

B) Are the Flyers going to actually compete in intervening year and a half just because they get Karlsson?

C) Are you sure they're going to compete in the next year and a half with Karlsson if it takes giving up one of their two best forwards to do it?

D) Karlsson doesn't take faceoffs.

E) Karlsson doesn't clear the porch (where most goals are getting in on Elliott)

F) As much as the world's best D man would be cool, the Defense is the thing I'm the least worried about at this point. 

 

A) You wouldn't have to... trade him at 29 if it's not working out. He'll still fetch one hell of a price.

B) Karlsson is one of very few players in the world who can effectively make a team as a whole remarkably better. Ottawa had no business winning anything last year, but they did, because of Karlsson. Does he make the current squad a competitor? He definitely goes one hell of a long way.

C) This is a judgment call, but I do believe Voracek is punching above his weight. I think we will look back at this year and collectively wish Hex had traded him in 2017-18. Obviously, that's a risk and a judgment call, but it's how I feel. I could be wrong of course, but when the return is a guy who has laid claim on being the best player in the world for good periods of time, I feel the risk may be worth taking.

D) We're near the top of the league with faceoffs right now with what we've got. Voracek doesn't take any either...

E) Neither does Voracek? The trade doesn't involve any porch clearers on either side. Unlike Voracek, Karlsson is the best in the game at getting the puck moving the other way. Why clear the porch when you have no snow?

F) I do agree with you here. The future is looking pretty stacked on D already.

 

Keep in mind Karlsson would become the single best player we've had on the team since the Big E. That's nothing to scoff at... it certain should be considered and all options weighed. 

[ruxpin]

3 minutes ago, King Knut said:

who is going to feed him the puck and make the plays to get it into the zone?

 

Dale Weise?

 

Damned if I know!   LOL  In theory, you'd hop Couturier or Filpula or even Patrick.   Karlsson.   but you make a fair point.

 

Simmonds and Schenn really weren't legitimate shooters.    Both did a fantastic job of getting into ugly areas and working for it.   Hoffman really does have a terrific shot.   It's something the Flyers really lack, especially from the left side.

[ruxpin]

9 minutes ago, King Knut said:

Karlsson doesn't take faceoffs.

 

How many do either Voracek or Ghost take?   The proposed trade doesn't affect faceoffs at all.    If the point is only that the trade wouldn't improve upon them, yeah.

 

11 minutes ago, King Knut said:

As much as the world's best D man would be cool, the Defense is the thing I'm the least worried about at this point

 

I think that's the winning argument right there.

[King Knut]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

 

How many do either Voracek or Ghost take?   The proposed trade doesn't affect faceoffs at all.    If the point is only that the trade wouldn't improve upon them, yeah.

 

 

Giroux takes a bunch even though he's playing Wing.  I think I was trying to specifically respond to a Giroux mention.  

 

And to your other point... right?  They're not scoring enough.  That's the problem.  Karlsson puts up points, but is he going to be the thing that ignites and develops the underachieving forwards?  Is he going to make Filppula, Wiese, Lehtera, Raffl and Simmonds suddenly better?    Is he going to suddenly make Konecny and Patrick competitive at an NHL level despite their inexperience?   

 

These are the issues currently plaguing this team.  Karlsson is pure magic to watch, and I'd love for him to be a Flyer, but I just don't see how he solves this team's problems.  

[King Knut]

6 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Simmonds and Schenn really weren't legitimate shooters.    Both did a fantastic job of getting into ugly areas and working for it.   Hoffman really does have a terrific shot.   It's something the Flyers really lack, especially from the left side.

 

 

You're selling me on Hoffman.  How about a Simmonds for Hoffman trade striaght up?  They're both UFA in two years.  They're both the same age.   Simmonds being the gritty greasy goal guy can capitalize on Karlsson's point work and help their struggling PP production.  

 

Hoffman can be the shot that the FLyers haven't legitimately had since trading Carter.

[OccamsRazor]

29 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

 

Broken Record Alert:    Get Hoffman in the deal and you have your 25+ goal/year shooter.   Voracek is putting up points, and that's great.  But we don't have a legitimate shooter.  Hoffman would be that.

 

What are you saying send Jake and keep G for Hoffman??

 

Yeah i would do that. Hoffman for two more year after this at 5.1mill.

 

Yeah sign me up.

 

And for the record i don't want to trade Giroux it was just for conversation's sake. Yet i would move Jake and his deal.

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, King Knut said:

 

 

You're selling me on Hoffman.  How about a Simmonds for Hoffman trade striaght up?  They're both UFA in two years.  They're both the same age.   Simmonds being the gritty greasy goal guy can capitalize on Karlsson's point work and help their struggling PP production.  

 

Hoffman can be the shot that the FLyers haven't legitimately had since trading Carter.

 

You're making this hard.  I really like both players.    I'm okay with that, I think.  Without looking at contracts, etc.   And since Hoffman is currently on the 3rd line for no explicable reason, maybe we could get them to throw in a pick or something.

 

Here's a question, seriously:   Say we did this.  Who is our gritty greasy goal guy?   We'd have a bunch of peripheral-type guys that can't shoot and Hoffman, a peripheral guy who can.  I'm sure I'm overlooking someone, but I can't think at the moment.   I guess Couturier has been doing that.   Anyone else (effectively)?

[ruxpin]

1 minute ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What are you saying send Jake and keep G for Hoffman??

 

Yeah i would do that. Hoffman for two more year after this at 5.1mill.

 

Yeah sign me up.

 

And for the record i don't want to trade Giroux it was just for conversation's sake. Yet i would move Jake and his deal.

 

yeah, I completely missed that Giroux had been discussed.  I jumped to the wrong conclusion with King Knut as a result, too.

 

No, i don't move Giroux for Hoffman.   I was still on Voracek/Ghost for Karlsson/Hoffman and whatever variation of picks (on either side) it took to accomplish it.

[ruxpin]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What are you saying send Jake and keep G for Hoffman??

 

Yeah i would do that. Hoffman for two more year after this at 5.1mill.

 

Yeah sign me up.

 

And for the record i don't want to trade Giroux it was just for conversation's sake. Yet i would move Jake and his deal.

 

I don't think I do Giroux for Hoffman.   I think I want more than that for Giroux.   But Hoffman would be cheaper and younger.  And if Giroux is going to play LW anyway.   Yeah, maybe, but I think I want a little more coming back from Ottawa.   And assurances made to the Ottawa police department that they'll be safe.

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

No, i don't move Giroux for Hoffman. 

 

 

I threw his name in for Karlsson...Captain for Captain deal...and Giroux is from Ottawa so only for those reasons. But he ain't coming to Philly i can't see Ron making that type of deal. Just to have something to say on it.

 

However i like Jake for Hoffman. Yet can't see Ottawa taking Jake's contract back.

[ruxpin]

3 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

However i like Jake for Hoffman. Yet can't see Ottawa taking Jake's contract back.

 

Yeah, that's the kicker.  The whole thing really is a fantasy hockey exercise, but it's something fun to kick around during a 4-day layoff.

[King Knut]

9 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

A) You wouldn't have to... trade him at 29 if it's not working out. He'll still fetch one hell of a price.

 

 

Then we're right back where we were in two years time only without a 26 year old Ghost.  That's my point.  Even with Karlsson this team isn't winning a cup this year or next year without some other things getting drastically different.  The chances are even less if you send away Voracek or Giroux or Simmonds to get Karlsson.  

 

9 minutes ago, elmatus said:

B) Karlsson is one of very few players in the world who can effectively make a team as a whole remarkably better. Ottawa had no business winning anything last year, but they did, because of Karlsson. Does he make the current squad a competitor? He definitely goes one hell of a long way.

 

Karlsson is that kind of player... to the tune of 20-25 minutes a night.  He and Provorov could be amazing together.  

But if you trade one of your top forwards for him, there's literally 35-40 minutes a night that will be weaker for the deal.   My reticence isn't about the player.  It's about the team.  

 

9 minutes ago, elmatus said:

C) This is a judgment call, but I do believe Voracek is punching above his weight. I think we will look back at this year and collectively wish Hex had traded him in 2017-18. Obviously, that's a risk and a judgment call, but it's how I feel. I could be wrong of course, but when the return is a guy who has laid claim on being the best player in the world for good periods of time, I feel the risk may be worth taking.

 

I really did think that about Jake until he started getting Raffl to score while meanwhile Coots and Giroux are kinda stuck in neutral at 5 on 5 with Simmonds.  At this point, it isn't pretty, it's not a thing of beauty, but somehow, Jake is elevating the play of everyone around him.  To paraphrase what Joe Paterno's college coach said about him, Jake can't skate, he can't pass, he can't shoot... all he knows how to do is make goals happen.  If we can just start translating that into winning games, I'll take it.  Dude's the most productive Flyer over 4 seasons or so now.  It isn't pretty, but it's a real thing.  My ONLY reticence about him is the duration of his contract.  And that's the reason I consider this becasue worst case scenario in two years you've got 8 million more bucks to drop on someone in his 20's entering his prime.  The problem is that I just don't see that many free agent wingers matching that description in the pool in two years and I think the remaining Flyers will just possible be ready to go at that point... and the roster will definitely have the room for them.  

9 minutes ago, elmatus said:

D) We're near the top of the league with faceoffs right now with what we've got. Voracek doesn't take any either...

 

Yeah, that was in reference to someone through out Giroux.  sorry.  

 

9 minutes ago, elmatus said:

E) Neither does Voracek? The trade doesn't involve any porch clearers on either side. Unlike Voracek, Karlsson is the best in the game at getting the puck moving the other way. Why clear the porch when you have no snow?

 

No, but I'm looking at the whole team and the holes that need to be filled.  You dump Jake, you have essentially a significantly better, more effective Ghost moving the puck through the neutral zone and setting up goals and playing for coverage much better in his own end... not only do you still have no one to shoot and score them, you have less offensive help at forward than before.  Additionally, you haven't filled the ACTUAL hole defensively that your team is struggling with.  

 

You may be greatly enhancing part of the team that's already decent, but you're not addressing the weaknesses and creating a new hole in the process.  On the whole, I just see it as not helpful.  

 

9 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Keep in mind Karlsson would become the single best player we've had on the team since the Big E. That's nothing to scoff at... it certain should be considered and all options weighed. 

 

Could help with the national coverage and maybe getting some refs on our side.  Maybe even the department of player safety lends some sympathy and gives Komarov a suspension when he ends Karlsson's career with a boarding that results in a concussion?  

 

Only problem is when Karlsson goes down in your scenario, we're not just out the best player in the world, we're out Ghost and Jake too.  

 

You know it would happen.