Thomas Vanek, Hall of famer????

[JR Ewing]

51 minutes ago, Hockey Junkie said:

Looking at the greatest Sabres of all time, Gilbert Perrault is without any doubt the best easily.  Its not close.  The you have guys like Robert, Martin, Lafontaine, Mogilny, Peca, Korab, Dudley, Danny Gare, Vanek, Roy, Pommenville, Hasek Miller and gee whiz, the list is much longer than you might think

 

For what it's worth, I think that Dominik Hasek is the greatest Sabre ever, and I don't think it's even close. He scored 10 points in the quiz, and only 14 of them even apply to goalies. In his prime, he beat out guys like Lemieux and Jagr for MVP awards, and was so far above the rest of the other goalies that it was preposterous. He did all of that despite not playing a game in the NHL for almost a decade after he was drafted, due to global politics.

 

He's in the discussion for the best goaltender of all time, and without knocking anybody who ever played for Buffalo, the team doesn't have another guy in that class of players.

 

[J0e Th0rnton]

Good lord no. He would be the worst player in the hall of fame

[yave1964]

48 minutes ago, J0e Th0rnton said:

Good lord no. He would be the worst player in the hall of fame

No that would be Tom Johnson who was a decent but unspectacular defenseman for the Habs dynasty who made it in on the coattails of his amazing teammates and has NO business in the Hall. Johnson in the Hall is like Bouwmeester making it. Just a dreadful pick.

 

  But Vanek.

 

  No, he is not a HOFer but I was amazed looking at his stats and realizing that with longevity and a bit of luck he may hit 500 goals, and if he were to end up on a championship team towards the end of his career he might draw a vote or two. He really just keeps chugging along, usually with two teams a year putting up 20ish goals and 50ish points like punching a clock. I wrote this as a quirk one morning while bored, lol and quite frankly I am surprised at the reaction it was gotten. 

[SpikeDDS]

@Hockey Junkie

 

Which is why I did this:

 

As compared with other, more historic, and more successful franchises, the list is pretty short. Not non-existent.

 

Out of curiosity, how many of those listed are in the HOF as Sabres? Seriously asking. Not mocking.

[Buffalo Rick]

2 hours ago, JR Ewing said:

 

Run through a quiz geared for football, Dan Marino would come out as a Hall of Famer. Run through this quiz, Perreault comes out as a Hall of Famer as well. I don't understand your objection with a single step in the process when it's clear that the process itself would see them as great players.

 

The point of something like this, Rick, is that the more questions we ask about players, the better the idea that we get of them. There isn't a single question on this quiz which automatically includes or excludes a player from HOF discussion. Mark Lamb has a Stanley Cup ring and Gilbert Pererault doesn't, but there isn't a sane human being walking the planet who would make a HOF case for Lamb just the same as nobody would say that Perreault shouldn't be in.

 

Running him through the quiz, I have him with 6 points:

 

3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)
5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?
7. Was he ever a team Captain?
11. Did he play alot/well after he passed his prime?
12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?
13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF?
 

5-8 = Belongs in HOF

 

Do I think that if Perreault were a Hab or Bruin that he would likely have had a Cup ring to go along with it? Yes. He probably wouldn't have Captain on those teams, so the points kind of even out.

 

And before you say "ONLY 6 POINTS?!?!", please keep in mind that many fine players who were good soldiers with long and productive careers come away with a single point or two at most. To get 6 is amazing.

 

It makes sense all that you point out.  I do think many fringe players get in.  St Louis is one of them.  And Perrault was dearly wanted by Montreal in those days.  He lives in Montreal.  A coin flip decided the fate of the French Connection as a Vancouver fan/friend of mine reminds me.  They lost the coin flip.  So its no wonder we lost the lottery for McDavid.  I have no regrets on that though.  I love Jack Eichel.  That was a win win. Perrault most certainly would have won a few Cups with those mighty Canadien teams.  But the Sabres only 5 years in, made it to the finals with the famed line of Perrault, Martin and Robert and Danny Gare.  No goalie killed us.  They had Parent. We outplayed them big time and were beaten by one of the greatest goalies ever.  Along with Plante, Hasek, Hall, Sawchuk and Broduer.  The Bruins were snake bitten vs Montreal in those days.  Not because they were not as good IMO.  Don Cherry had them right there.  But the teams with Orr and Espo that did win were the best. I have seen Orr, Howe Perrault, Gretsky, Lemieaux, Messier, and all of the greatest since 1967.  How many can you really let in?

[Buffalo Rick]

18 minutes ago, SpikeDDS said:

@Hockey Junkie

 

Which is why I did this:

 

As compared with other, more historic, and more successful franchises, the list is pretty short. Not non-existent.

 

Out of curiosity, how many of those listed are in the HOF as Sabres? Seriously asking. Not mocking.

I do not know the exact number.  Hasek won with Detroit but played in the final with Buffalo as did Perrault.  LaFontaine?  Not sure but he did not win a cup either.   We came mighty close 3 times.  And actually the most disappointing might have been 06 when Carolina won that game 7 that we had 4 AHL defensemen called up for.. Tallinder by himself would have put us in IMO.  This young team is going to get there.  We have the nucleus and we have the talent.  Just give them time to ripen

[JR Ewing]

3 minutes ago, Hockey Junkie said:

I do think many fringe players get in.  St Louis is one of them.  

 

Ouch.

 

Just for the sheer hell of it, let's run St. Louis through the questions.

 

3. Was he ever among the top 10 leaders in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)

4. Did the player ever lead the league in any key stats? (G, A, Pts, W, SO, etc)
5. Did he ever have an impact on a deep playoff run?
6. Was he a key member of a Stanley Cup winner?
7. Was he ever a team Captain?
11. Did he play alot/well after he passed his prime?
12. Was he ever elected to the 1st or 2nd All-Star team?
13. Are many any other players with similar statistics in the HHOF?
14. Did he win a Hart, Lindsay, Norris or Vezina Trophy? (NOTE for goalies: prior to 1982, use 1st All-Star selections)

 

I have him down for 9 points, which is a territory where is completely surrounded by qualified Hall of Fame hockey players. What more would you liked to have seen from St. Louis, in order to see him as more of a HOF calibre player?

 

3 minutes ago, Hockey Junkie said:

And Perrault was dearly wanted by Montreal in those days.  He lives in Montreal.  A coin flip decided the fate of the French Connection as a Vancouver fan/friend of mine reminds me.  They lost the coin flip.  So its no wonder we lost the lottery for McDavid.  I have no regrets on that though.  I love Jack Eichel.  That was a win win. Perrault most certainly would have won a few Cups with those mighty Canadien teams.  But the Sabres only 5 years in, made it to the finals with the famed line of Perrault, Martin and Robert and Danny Gare.  No goalie killed us.  They had Parent. We outplayed them big time and were beaten by one of the greatest goalies ever.  Along with Plante, Hasek, Hall, Sawchuk and Broduer.  The Bruins were snake bitten vs Montreal in those days.  Not because they were not as good IMO.  Don Cherry had them right there.  But the teams with Orr and Espo that did win were the best. I have seen Orr, Howe Perrault, Gretsky, Lemieaux, Messier, and all of the greatest since 1967.  How many can you really let in?

 

Yeah, Perreault really was the great pick of 1970, and oddly enough, it was a rare time where Montreal did a lot of swinging and missing on draft day. Out of all their picks that year, only Chuck LeFley was what you would call an actual NHL player, and only one other pick played in the NHL at all.

 

[radoran]

35 minutes ago, Hockey Junkie said:

I do think many fringe players get in.  St Louis is one of them.

 

More goals (391 to 357). More points (1033 to 753). Higher regular season  ppg (.91 to .78). Higher postseason ppg (.84 to .52). Six All Star Games to Vanek's one. Two time Art Ross. Lester Pearson Award. Hart Memorial Award. Four time second team all star to Vanek's one. Three time Lady Byng Award winner (Vanek zero NHL award trophies). World Cup of Hockey champion. Stanley Cup champion (24 points in 23 games). Bested Vanek's career best point total (84 - his only 80+ point season) five times. Two Cup Finals (one win) to go with his other ECF appearance. Fifty-nine points in those three playoff runs, to Vanek's 22 in his three ECF runs.

 

"Fringe player."

 

If MSL is a "fringe player" then Vanek doesn't even make the "fringe."

[SpikeDDS]

@Hockey Junkie

 

There is no doubt in my mind with the young talent you guys now have that this is the most exciting hockey you guys have watched in at least a decade. Good for you guys!

 

Hasek was a delight to watch. Kinda like watching Barry Sanders in the NFL. You never knew when he would pull off the most unbelievable play, but it WAS coming, eventually. Hasek was like that. He redefined a new way that good goalies can be.

[yave1964]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

More goals (391 to 357). More points (1033 to 753). Higher regular season  ppg (.91 to .78). Higher postseason ppg (.84 to .52). Six All Star Games to Vanek's one. Two time Art Ross. Lester Pearson Award. Hart Memorial Award. Four time second team all star to Vanek's one. Three time Lady Byng Award winner (Vanek zero NHL award trophies). World Cup of Hockey champion. Stanley Cup champion (24 points in 23 games). Bested Vanek's career best point total (84 - his only 80+ point season) five times. Two Cup Finals (one win) to go with his other ECF appearance. Fifty-nine points in those three playoff runs, to Vanek's 22 in his three ECF runs.

 

"Fringe player."

 

If MSL is a "fringe player" then Vanek doesn't even make the "fringe."

Lunatic fringe.

[Boweache]

I think yes, but not yet. Maybe give him a couple more years

[Hockey-78]

17 hours ago, radoran said:

There isn't a forward in the modern era who has gone in with the stats you suggest (less than 357 points). The last guy to go in with less points was Rod Langway in 2002 and he was a defenceman. Then Fetisov in 2001 (who went in also based on his international play), Bobby Bauer in 1996 (who last played in 1952), and Bun Cook in 1995 (who last played in 1937).

 

Vanek had a great run in Buffalo, cracked 40 goals twice and had 36 in another season. He hasn't scored above 30 since 2011.

 

The last forward to go in with fewer goals than Vanek was Forsberg in 2014 (249) and he only had 135 more points than Vanek in 257 fewer games. You can then look at Adam Oates in 2012 (341 goals) who only managed to average 1.06 points per game over a career that spanned 368 more games than Vanek has while Vanek has a .78 ppg.

 

Hi radoran. You know, I didn't mention forwards nor modern era anywhere. I think you took my casual remark too literally. I was underlining the fact that the whole process and rationalization behind player becoming a HOFamer is very subjective by nature whereas yave started this thread dominantly from that points production point of view. I kind of contrariwise repeated my sentiment of Vanek not belonging to the HOF or at least tried to.

[radoran]

9 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

Hi radoran. You know, I didn't mention forwards nor modern era anywhere. I think you took my casual remark too literally. I was underlining the fact that the whole process and rationalization behind player becoming a HOFamer is very subjective by nature whereas yave started this thread dominantly from that points production point of view. I kind of contrariwise repeated my sentiment of Vanek not belonging to the HOF or at least tried to.

 

I get that you didn't specifically mention it, but if you are talking in the context of the thread, whether or not Vanek gets in has to be based upon whether or not other similar forwards in the modern era are getting in with similar production.

 

They're not.

 

Probably his only shot is to eclipse 500 goals and he would need to continue his production of the past five years (20.6 goals per year average) for the next seven to make that happen, meaning he's scoring 20 as a 41/42 year old.

 

He's a solid, reliable 20/50 guy and those are important to have on teams, but they're not typically HOFers.

 

[JR Ewing]

@radoran Vanek is a first ballot guy in the Hall of Very Good Players.

 

[Hockey-78]

@JR Ewing Sorry bud but I disagree. Vanek is a first ballot guy in the Hall of Very Good Cherry Pickers.

 

Watched him too closely for too long with the Wild... but I guess quite a few GM's share my sentiment since they've shown Vanek the door so often.

 

Usually HOFamers aren't journeymen. I wonder what's the record number of teams for a HOFamer? First player that comes to my mind is Gilmour but I'll let someone answer for me...

[Hockey-78]

4 hours ago, radoran said:

 

I get that you didn't specifically mention it, but if you are talking in the context of the thread, whether or not Vanek gets in has to be based upon whether or not other similar forwards in the modern era are getting in with similar production.

 

Absolutely. Make the comparison as fair as possible. And even then...

 

I think the conecpt of "modern era" is too vague. A post ago I mentioned Gilmour. Do you consider him as a forward of modern era? And Vanek's numbers should be compared to Dougie's? There's no way Gilmour would score 127 points a season in the league as it is now and Mogilny and Selanne scored 76 goals in the same season. They'd be lucky to pile up 50 now. The numbers lie, better to judge who passes the eye test.

[radoran]

28 minutes ago, Hockey-78 said:

Absolutely. Make the comparison as fair as possible. And even then...

 

I think the conecpt of "modern era" is too vague. A post ago I mentioned Gilmour. Do you consider him as a forward of modern era? And Vanek's numbers should be compared to Dougie's? There's no way Gilmour would score 127 points a season in the league as it is now and Mogilny and Selanne scored 76 goals in the same season. They'd be lucky to pile up 50 now. The numbers lie, better to judge who passes the eye test.

 

The era of Big Big Points sort of closed starting around 1995 after Lemieux's 160. Only five guys break 120 and the last was Crosby in 2007 with 120. And you are starting to see guys from that post-era coming in. Kariya, St. Louis, Lindros, Selanne (even excepting his 76 goals). I think those are fair benchmarks for Vanek.

 

The eye test is always an important thing. For some, it's why Cam Neely is in the HOF. Neely was a somewhat controversial choice when made, and he's still got better numbers (.95 ppg to .78) than Vanek.

 

[sweetshot]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2018 at 10:23 AM, Hockey Junkie said:

Looking at the greatest Sabres of all time, Gilbert Perrault is without any doubt the best easily.  Its not close.  The you have guys like Robert, Martin, Lafontaine, Mogilny, Peca, Korab, Dudley, Danny Gare, Vanek, Roy, Pommenville, Hasek Miller and gee whiz, the list is much longer than you might think

You're forgetting your head coach. Who I believe is an HOFer.

[sweetshot]

Just now, Hockey-78 said:

@JR Ewing Sorry bud but I disagree. Vanek is a first ballot guy in the Hall of Very Good Cherry Pickers.

 

Watched him too closely for too long with the Wild... but I guess quite a few GM's share my sentiment since they've shown Vanek the door so often.

 

Usually HOFamers aren't journeymen. I wonder what's the record number of teams for a HOFamer? First player that comes to my mind is Gilmour but I'll let someone answer for me...

Coffey and Jagr played for 9. Coffey was a surprise for me. I think that is the most.

[Hockey-78]

6 hours ago, sweetshot said:

Coffey and Jagr played for 9. Coffey was a surprise for me. I think that is the most.

Oh right, Coffey. I appreciate it sweet!  Jagr still waiting for his turn which obviously will come as soon as possible.

 

Paul had 5 teams in his last 7 seasons which mostly explains it. I guess it doesn't matter if you're a multiple Norris Trophy winner; when you're past your prime, you become expendable. Especially in those good old days when there was no salary cap, blockbuster trades were made constantly during the season. Now the biggest news is Hagelin for Pearson...

[Hockey-78]

8 hours ago, sweetshot said:

You're forgetting your head coach. Who I believe is an HOFer.

Good point. Housley outstrips quite a few of those players Junkie listed.

 

Plus I'm not sure I'd say Perreault "was the best Sabres without a doubt and it's not even close". Hasek was the best goalie in the league while with the Sabres and during that time set some unbelievable records. I think I place him higher than Gilbert but to each his own.

[Buffalo Rick]

10 hours ago, sweetshot said:

You're forgetting your head coach. Who I believe is an HOFer.

I agree but most here will not.

[sweetshot]

3 hours ago, Hockey-78 said:

Good point. Housley outstrips quite a few of those players Junkie listed.

 

Plus I'm not sure I'd say Perreault "was the best Sabres without a doubt and it's not even close". Hasek was the best goalie in the league while with the Sabres and during that time set some unbelievable records. I think I place him higher than Gilbert but to each his own.

Hasek was unbelievable!

[SpikeDDS]

5 hours ago, sweetshot said:

Hasek was unbelievable!

 

Hasek redefined how his position could be played. No one had ever seen anyone do it like him successfully. That is when your play "transcends the game."

 

This is why, though a red-bleeding Red Wing fan through-and-through, I still put Bobby Orr above Nick Lidstrom as the greatest D-man of all time. Orr redefined what a defenseman could do, even leading the league in scoring! No one had ever seen anything like him before (or since, really). He changed the role of what D-men can be expected to do forever. He changed the game.

 

Hasek wasn't quite as transcendent as Orr was, but enough to get him in the HOF for sure. Goalies following him are expected to be much more athletic and mobile AS WELL as being in good position as much as possible, more like Roy or Brodeur. Again, he changed how the position is played.

 

He changed hockey.

[rottenrefs]

Thomas Vanek in a MN Wild sweater was one of the biggest slugs on ice I've ever seen.

Shall we count the ways teams thought he was a worthy hockey player?

 

1. Buffalo Sabres

2. NY Islanders

3. Montreal Canadians

4. Minnesota Wild (3 year contract, bought out and dumped his lazy ass after 2.)

5. Detroit Red Wings

6. Florida Panthers

7. Vancouver Canucks

8. Columbus Blue Jackets.

 

Aside from the Buffalo Sabres, the Wild were the only team dumb enough to hang onto him for more than a year.

 

His dedication to hockey ventures over into the Olympics (in Sochi) where he spent his only quality time there in a pub drinking until 6 am, only to show up for the game with a C on his sweater and a hang over.