OccamsRazor Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 12 minutes ago, brelic said: Oops, missed Seguin. After looking at his stats, I feel safe in saying his 22 regular season points and 7 playoff points were not the difference between winning a Cup and not. Hard to believe he's 27 already. Sheesh. C'mon his one point in the finals was critical to their Cup... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 hour ago, brelic said: I don't understand why you'd trade for a 34-year old center and stick him on the top line wing. Or any wing for that matter. I'd put him as 2C and forget Hayes... or get Hayes and forget Carter. Hey I'm just shocked I wasn't REPORTED for suggesting Jeff Carter... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, OccamsRazor said: Hey I'm just shocked I wasn't REPORTED for suggesting Jeff Carter... I actually like Carter. But you can't have two guys nicknamed Frosty on the same roster or the universe would implode! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, brelic said: I actually like Carter. But you can't have two guys nicknamed Frosty on the same roster or the universe would implode! Well if you trade for the original Frosty then Morgan and Joel can work on their chemistry for the following year in the AHL. It wouldn't hurt for some more seasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 hour ago, brelic said: It's such a conflation of myriad factors. We definitely agree there. My question is trying to get at what those factors might be, and I have a feeling there exists some very important ones that we very often overlook, because they're extremely difficult to define. I think it's entirely possible some players bring certain elements to a team that are not easily understandable when just looking at skill and luck, and it would behoove us to try and figure out what those things are. I think it's entirely possible whatever those intangibles are, they may in fact be extremely important to sustained success. This would go a long way towards explaining how just a handful of teams seem to contend every year for long periods of time. 1 hour ago, brelic said: So why do you assume that our guys aren't capable of doing it, and never will be? You can't seriously be suggesting this team is a contending team but for luck? Have we been watching the same Flyers over the last number of years? This team has never been anywhere near a contender, @brelic. No where near the level of other contending teams since 2010. That's now nine years of being a bubble team at best, while several other teams have consistently made deep runs multiple times in that same span. How am I supposed to look at it? Is it just the players we've had over that time? No. It's also the coach. It's also probably the GM. But yes, the players are the biggest factor. Will Provo, Patrick, Sanheim, and Myers usher in a new era for the team? I don't know. I obviously would love it if so, but no one can reliably predict how they'll develop. If there is some kind of x-factor certain players have that others don't, I have no way of telling whether any of those guys have that, but I hope so! What is rather easier to discuss is how our core group over the last number of years have not been anywhere near effective enough to make this club competitive... I really don't think that's any kind of a stretch. In fact, I think it's pretty blatantly obvious. Now granted, I can give the team a pass for a few of those early years, but we've entered territory now where, if this core has what it takes to contend, we really ought to be seeing better results -- and we're not. Can adding new players make the team competitive? Yeah of course... that's my point. I'm not entirely sure our current core is capable of it. There seems to be something important missing, and I'd like to have a sense for what that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 hour ago, brelic said: I'd argue that the absence of a Stanley Cup doesn't mean that a given core group is not capable of doing it. It's a false equivalency. Ovechkin was a poor leader and would never win a Cup ... until he did. 14 years later. I was never in the "Ovechkin will never win" camp so I'll leave that to them. But Washington went out of its way to put players around Ovechkin that would help win. It started with strong drafting - OV, Kuznetsov, Carlson, Backstrom, Wilson, Orlov, Vrana. But then adding guys like Oshie, Eller, Niskanen, Connolly, Beagle, Orpik... And, of course, Trotz. And, in fairness, the Caps did actually win playoff series the three years before they won the Cup and won the Division three times in a row. And they lost to back-to-back Cup champions for two years. Your point that only one team wins a Cup each year is a good one. Sometimes a good team gets beat. Last year, the Caps didn't "ride a hot goalie" or "catch lightning in a bottle" - they were a battle tested team that had accomplished things and had the bitter taste of defeat in their bellies. And they're leading the division again with five games to play. That's a little different than a team that hasn't won a playoff round in seven years, hasn't finished higher than 3rd in the division over that span (looks to be 6th again for the 3rd time in 5 years), and opens the season every year saying "we should be a playoff team", no? Hart gives them a leg up. A good coach could do wonders. 15 minutes ago, elmatus said: Can adding new players make the team competitive? Yeah of course... that's my point. I'm not entirely sure our current core is capable of it. There seems to be something important missing, and I'd like to have a sense for what that is. They could certainly use a guy like a Justin Williams. I don't know who that is - and haven't really looked. But I think that's what's being talked about in terms of "players that win." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, elmatus said: We definitely agree there. My question is trying to get at what those factors might be, and I have a feeling there exists some very important ones that we very often overlook, because they're extremely difficult to define. I think it's entirely possible some players bring certain elements to a team that are not easily understandable when just looking at skill and luck, and it would behoove us to try and figure out what those things are. I think it's entirely possible whatever those intangibles are, they may in fact be extremely important to sustained success. This would go a long way towards explaining how just a handful of teams seem to contend every year for long periods of time. I understand what you're saying, but I don't think it's ever just one thing. And if you were to discover what that/those things are, and find a player that has those qualities, you'd probably find out just as quickly that, "damn, that wasn't it either!" 5 minutes ago, elmatus said: You can't seriously be suggesting this team is a contending team but for luck? Have we been watching the same Flyers over the last number of years? This team has never been anywhere near a contender, @brelic. No where near the level of other contending teams since 2010. That's now nine years of being a bubble team at best, while several other teams have consistently made deep runs multiple times in that same span. How am I supposed to look at it? Is it just the players we've had over that time? No. It's also the coach. It's also probably the GM. But yes, the players are the biggest factor. Will Provo, Patrick, Sanheim, and Myers usher in a new era for the team? I don't know. I obviously would love it if so, but no one can reliably predict how they'll develop. If there is some kind of x-factor certain players have that others don't, I have no way of telling whether any of those guys have that, but I hope so! What is rather easier to discuss is how our core group over the last number of years have not been anywhere near effective enough to make this club competitive... I really don't think that's any kind of a stretch. Haha, no no, I didn't mean that this "team" is just full of bad luck. I just meant that the characterization of our core (say, G, Jake, Coots, and who else??) as unable to win it all (not saying you are making that claim but some have) is true until it isn't. SJ and Thornton may win a Cup this year, and then all of a sudden, you *can* win with Joe... obviously, no player can do it alone. So is it that it was never the right core before? Or that it's a more fitting core now? Or that he just needed 14 years like Ovi for the stars to align? 14 years of trying again, and again, and pushing, and pushing, until it happens. If TB doesn't win this year, how are they any different than the Flyers? Last 10 years, both zero cups. Or Nashville. Or anyone else. A SCF appearance doesn't count, just like we painfully found out! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, radoran said: That's a little different than a team that hasn't won a playoff round in seven years, hasn't finished higher than 3rd in the division over that span (looks to be 6th again for the 3rd time in 5 years), and opens the season every year saying "we should be a playoff team", no? Yes, absolutely. A more apt comparison would be the Richards/Carter era. Consistently competitive, a SCF appearance, a few conference finals, playoffs all the time. But this current team? No, there's no comparison. We're in different stages. Which is also why I think that starting the season with Frost and/or Farabee, not to mention Morin and Myers, is just more of the same. Inexperience, rookie mistakes, inconsistency, and a likely playoff miss. Plug the holes with real players, hopefully with some that push our players (i.e. Patrick, Lindblom) down the lineup more in line with their current abilities and output until they show otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 7 minutes ago, brelic said: If TB doesn't win this year, how are they any different than the Flyers? Last 10 years, both zero cups. They're very different. Sure, they have no cups, but they've made the conference or cup finals three of the last four years. They're also currently riding the best season we've seen in many years. They're really not at all comparable aside from both having not won a cup. I'm not equating contending to winning a cup. If the Flyers had done anything but completely crap the bed over the last 6-7 years, I wouldn't be nearly so hard on our core over that span. But they've been no where near a contending status in that time. Put another way, the players they've had anchoring the team over that time (which has been very consistent for the most part), can barely take this team into the post season, let alone win a playoff round. So yeah, I think I'm entirely justified in wondering whether there's something missing with the core group we've been watching in that span. They've got plenty of skill though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brelic Posted March 27, 2019 Author Share Posted March 27, 2019 1 minute ago, elmatus said: They're very different. Sure, they have no cups, but they've made the conference or cup finals three of the last four years. They're also currently riding the best season we've seen in many years. They're really not at all comparable aside from both having not won a cup. I'm not equating contending to winning a cup. If the Flyers had done anything but completely crap the bed over the last 6-7 years, I wouldn't be nearly so hard on our core over that span. But they've been no where near a contending status in that time. Put another way, the players they've had anchoring the team over that time (which has been very consistent for the most part), can barely take this team into the post season, let alone win a playoff round. So yeah, I think I'm entirely justified in wondering whether there's something missing with the core group we've been watching in that span. Ah, gotcha. I agree that this current gen has been rather lame. On most nights over the past 7-8 seasons, Giroux is the only thing that's entertaining to watch. Barring any team-altering moves, I would say this team will be a consistent contender in 3-5 years. That's when several of our key cogs (Provorov, Sanheim, Patrick, Konecny, Hart) will be at or near their prime. Many others will have graduated from the AHL, and the weaker links will be cast off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elmatus Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 5 minutes ago, brelic said: Barring any team-altering moves, I would say this team will be a consistent contender in 3-5 years. This is fine, but this is exactly the line that's been going around since 2011. I think it's very fair to be skeptical at this point. Now of course, if every season we say "we're 2-3 years away from a cup run", we will eventually be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 Just now, elmatus said: This is fine, but this is exactly the line that's been going around since 2011. I think it's very fair to be skeptical at this point. Now of course, if every season we say "we're 2-3 years away from a cup run", we will eventually be right. I'm skeptical of anyone on this team over 26... Giroux not for his play, but for whether or not he's the motivational leader the team needs. After the past seven seasons I think we'd be crazy not to question that. "The Shift" was a Long Time Ago. Not to say he "can't" be - just "will" he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 6 hours ago, vis said: I don't think I want him. He hasn't done much in Columbus and, in fact, they may not even make the POs. I think I'd stay away from him for the money he's likely to attract. Don't think he's a player you win with. I'd focus on Panarin and/or look for a more "traditional" third line center. Thank you. I have zero interest in him. In my opinion, the guy is a loser. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 I guess I don't have any problem with the signing. I mean, you can't argue with the price. But, I'm telling you, I will completely forget him the moment he's not a Flyer. I forget him a lot now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 hours ago, ruxpin said: I guess I don't have any problem with the signing. I mean, you can't argue with the price. But, I'm telling you, I will completely forget him the moment he's not a Flyer. I forget him a lot now. You just described the perfect NHL D-man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 2 hours ago, ruxpin said: I guess I don't have any problem with the signing. I mean, you can't argue with the price. But, I'm telling you, I will completely forget him the moment he's not a Flyer. I forget him a lot now. Sorry i must have missed it who are you referring too?? Edit: Nevermind i think you are referring to Raffl, for some reason in my mind i thought you were talking about a defenseman. Don't worry it's not you it's me. Been a long day and been working out in the yard and the heat must have fried my head. Carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FD19372 Posted March 27, 2019 Share Posted March 27, 2019 I won't even miss Raffl as much as I missed another 4th liner, Bellemare. Raffl is a borderline NHLer, who is a good forechecker, OK PKer, but doesn't add much at all other than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: Sorry i must have missed it who are you referring too?? Edit: Nevermind i think you are referring to Raffl, for some reason in my mind i thought you were talking about a defenseman. Don't worry it's not you it's me. Been a long day and been working out in the yard and the heat must have fried my head. Carry on. Podein referenced a defenseman in response to my post. Maybe that was it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 1 hour ago, ruxpin said: Podein referenced a defenseman in response to my post. Maybe that was it? Have I gone and confused someone? Normally it's just me that I confuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 12 minutes ago, Podein25 said: Have I gone and confused someone? Normally it's just me that I confuse. No I confused myself come home from the gym and was then in the yard doing somework and i got dehydrated and well I'm 47 not 27 and the rest is history...or is that onset dementia... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said: No I confused myself come home from the gym and was then in the yard doing somework and i got dehydrated and well I'm 47 not 27 and the rest is history...or is that onset dementia... Could be. Still snow on the ground here, though melting. I'd love to be out doing yard work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 4 minutes ago, Podein25 said: Could be. Still snow on the ground here, though melting. I'd love to be out doing yard work. It was hard not to a beautiful day out 72 and sunny. Was shocked I sweated so much but no clouds and I was already tired from the gym. No big deal was much better once I hydrated and ate. But rux still makes no sense... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted March 28, 2019 Share Posted March 28, 2019 Just now, OccamsRazor said: rux still makes no sense... To be fair, it's really his specialty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskaFlyerFan Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 On 3/27/2019 at 1:40 PM, OccamsRazor said: Hey I'm just shocked I wasn't REPORTED for suggesting Jeff Carter... REPORTED!! Only because you asked for it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlaskaFlyerFan Posted March 29, 2019 Share Posted March 29, 2019 22 hours ago, Podein25 said: Could be. Still snow on the ground here, though melting. I'd love to be out doing yard work. Come down to Texas. I could use a new lawn boy! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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