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Howie58

If it Isn't Quenneville...Next Target?

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@flyer4ever

Question, would you rather the team quit in January or once they were actually eliminated from the playoffs ?

 

9 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

The Flyer players all championed for Gordon to be retained at their exit interviews, yet they all quit on him the last 2 weeks.

 

You are not the only guy writing this, but you are the most recent I've seen. 

 

To me these guys didn't check out until after they lost to the Habs and Caps in the same week.  They came up small in those two games and were essentially eliminated. I was at the Islanders game at the end of that week, they still had some spunk early on but were f'd over so hard by the officiating they couldn't get anything going, when they did, the refs called penalties on our guys for getting run into the goal crease.

 

My point is, people were calling for the organization to quit in January, but the players sucked it up and won a lot of games against all kinds of teams, good and bad. Were they gutless then ? 

 

If these guys were quitters there wouldn't have been a surge, they would have been New Jersey and just kept right on sucking.

 

I understand they don't play the way you want them to play, I don't know if the style of hockey you enjoy at the pro level is coming back.

 

I don't think this "quitters/gutless" characterization of the players is accurate. 

 

 

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30 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

@flyer4ever

Question, would you rather the team quit in January or once they were actually eliminated from the playoffs ?

 

 

You are not the only guy writing this, but you are the most recent I've seen. 

 

To me these guys didn't check out until after they lost to the Habs and Caps in the same week.  They came up small in those two games and were essentially eliminated. I was at the Islanders game at the end of that week, they still had some spunk early on but were f'd over so hard by the officiating they couldn't get anything going, when they did, the refs called penalties on our guys for getting run into the goal crease.

 

My point is, people were calling for the organization to quit in January, but the players sucked it up and won a lot of games against all kinds of teams, good and bad. Were they gutless then ? 

 

If these guys were quitters there wouldn't have been a surge, they would have been New Jersey and just kept right on sucking.

 

I understand they don't play the way you want them to play, I don't know if the style of hockey you enjoy at the pro level is coming back.

 

I don't think this "quitters/gutless" characterization of the players is accurate. 

 

 

 

gordon is just not the right coach, if you watch games, they are getting outplayed almost every game and expect hart to do all the work, you cant win games like that, there's no system with gordon, i get that you like him, but this isnt about liking or disliking him personality, it's about winning games and playing like champions, the only reason the phantoms were playing well under him was because their goalies were bailing them out. it doesnt work like that.

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11 hours ago, flyer4ever said:

Tippett won 5 playoff series in 14 years as a head coach. Vigneault won 13 series in 15 years as a head coach. Not really close.  I'm still not convinced a coach makes that big a difference. The talent and the character have to be there.

The Flyer players all championed for Gordon to be retained at their exit interviews, yet they all quit on him the last 2 weeks. I think Fletcher will have a tough time hiring the right coach with the current personnel. I wish I could be more optimistic like some others in this group, but the on ice performance the last 2 years does not impress me or any perspective coach, nor does the handling of Haxtol.

 

I think Alain Vigneault would be a solid choice i want no part of Bruce (who has been retained) or Bylsma or Yeo on McClellan.

 

My only concern with AV and his use of kids. He prefers to lean on vets too much and well the Flyers don't really have a lot.

 

He would certainly have a say so on the defensive vet they could bring in to help on defense.

 

Talbot was on his Ranger team when they went to the finals...Zuccarello, Brassard, Hagelin and Brian Boyle were too and will both be free agents. 

 

Not saying i want those guys just mentioning it and coaches like to bring in familiar faces.

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Posted (edited)

Rux posted this in the shout box.  Flyers have asked permission to talk to Alain Vigneau.  Freaking yippie...

 

 

Edited by AlaskaFlyerFan

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Posted (edited)

nevermind...found it

 

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57 minutes ago, AlaskaFlyerFan said:

nevermind...found it

 

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This doesn't sound real encouraging from Bill and it's the knock i have heard on AV...

 

😎 Elliotte Friedman reported via Twitter on Friday that the Flyers have received permission to interview veteran NHL coach Alain Vigneault for their head coaching job. Vigneault's tenure with the New York Rangers did not end well and he was criticized by some for allegedly stifling creativity and/or being a poor handler of young players. However, the 57-year-old's overall body of coaching work in the NHL is impressive: two trips to the Stanley Cup Finals with two different teams (Vancouver and the Rangers), an additional Eastern Conference Final appearance, five other seasons in which his team reached the second round of the playoffs, eight regular seasons in which his team finished with 100+ points, and a Jack Adams Award (NHL Coach of the Year) in 2006-07 while coaching the Canucks.

 

...the Flyers have one of the youngest rosters in the NHL so can't see how he would not like to work with youth why he would want this job if this is the case. He does have a good resume.

 

So i guess we'll see where this goes...

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

This doesn't sound real encouraging from Bill and it's the knock i have heard on AV...

 

😎 Elliotte Friedman reported via Twitter on Friday that the Flyers have received permission to interview veteran NHL coach Alain Vigneault for their head coaching job. Vigneault's tenure with the New York Rangers did not end well and he was criticized by some for allegedly stifling creativity and/or being a poor handler of young players. However, the 57-year-old's overall body of coaching work in the NHL is impressive: two trips to the Stanley Cup Finals with two different teams (Vancouver and the Rangers), an additional Eastern Conference Final appearance, five other seasons in which his team reached the second round of the playoffs, eight regular seasons in which his team finished with 100+ points, and a Jack Adams Award (NHL Coach of the Year) in 2006-07 while coaching the Canucks.

 

...the Flyers have one of the youngest rosters in the NHL so can't see how he would not like to work with youth why he would want this job if this is the case. He does have a good resume.

 

So i guess we'll see where this goes...

i know you dont want to hear this but i think that fletch is going to add alot of vets to this roster in the offseason, i mean if keeping raffl is an indication, it's probably going to mean alot of younger players are going to get traded or moved back to the phantoms. it doesnt surprise me because after seeing alot young players on this roster besides hart havent played that well, they have to add some vets on this roster.

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35 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

i know you dont want to hear this but i think that fletch is going to add alot of vets to this roster in the offseason, i mean if keeping raffl is an indication, it's probably going to mean alot of younger players are going to get traded or moved back to the phantoms. it doesnt surprise me because after seeing alot young players on this roster besides hart havent played that well, they have to add some vets on this roster.

 

They played well for about 2 months just as good as Tampa. So it was just to much to over come at the end of the season.

 

Coming out in October, November and December and playing well then is what will next year.

 

Don't dig a hole to have to climb out cab go a long way.

 

Some stability in net should help too.

 

Yeah I can see adding a vet 2 C and a vet on the blueline.

 

Nothing crazy.

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1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

They played well for about 2 months just as good as Tampa. So it was just to much to over come at the end of the season.

 

Coming out in October, November and December and playing well then is what will next year.

 

Don't dig a hole to have to climb out cab go a long way.

 

Some stability in net should help too.

 

Yeah I can see adding a vet 2 C and a vet on the blueline.

 

Nothing crazy.

 

I watched the Tampa / Columbus game last night, and the Flyers seem pretty far away in comparison. 

 

And for a guy people here don’t like, Duchene looked pretty darn good. 

 

The Flyers need players who play at a high level and produce. They haven’t done that, so I’m good with adding players that can. 

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14 minutes ago, brelic said:

 

I watched the Tampa / Columbus game last night, and the Flyers seem pretty far away in comparison. 

 

And for a guy people here don’t like, Duchene looked pretty darn good. 

 

The Flyers need players who play at a high level and produce. They haven’t done that, so I’m good with adding players that can. 

 

Yeah he had a good game.

 

However since Panarin is leaving and Bob supposedly I can't see them not signing Duchene and/or Dzingel either.

 

But stranger things have happened.

 

There have been moments where the Flyers have displayed they could hang with those team but there haven't been enough of it and I'm not talking about through the season.

 

I'm talking about just within a game.

 

Such a Jekyll and Hyde team like I've never personally witnessed.

 

From playing like one of the best in the league to one of the worst all within 60 minutes.

 

That is a lot to straighten out and alot of it is mental.

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So it seems he has a sense of humor...

 

 

...he'll need it in Philly...it'll keep him from crying...

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20 hours ago, tucson83 said:

i know you dont want to hear this but i think that fletch is going to add alot of vets to this roster in the offseason, i mean if keeping raffl is an indication, it's probably going to mean alot of younger players are going to get traded or moved back to the phantoms. it doesnt surprise me because after seeing alot young players on this roster besides hart havent played that well, they have to add some vets on this roster.

 

I doubt Fletcher adds a lot of vets. I see some big UFA signings (I'm looking at possibly one of Kevin Hayes/Brock Nelson at center and Karlsson on D <- I honestly believe he'll want to be closer to Ottawa to his wife's parents while not being in Ontario or Quebec) and a possible trade for a good, reliable back up goalie, but I don't see any guys like Meyers, Morin, etc...being dispatched. I also think that Fletcher moves on from Hagg and MacDonald and possibly has an auction for Gudas or Gostisbehere.

There's going to be a chance for the kids to make the club, but they're really going to have to earn it. As for head coach, I grew up in Ottawa when Alain Vigneault was THE coach in the area when he was the bench boss for the Hull Olympiques and they were the top team in the country. They had great defense, great goaltending and an incredible offense. Plus the team was incredibly young, so I'm not convinced that he can't work with younger players. I think he might be a bit tougher on them in order to coach out bad habits though and I think he's going to have to be a little bit more hands on in his approach.

 

Of course, we don't know the full list of candidates, but if Fletcher is doing a scorched earth search, then why not add Tom Watt, George Kingston, Ralph Krueger, Barry Melrose, Mike Milbury and Doug MacLean to the list? Might as well go full on bat **** crazy for the search.

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19 hours ago, brelic said:

And for a guy people here don’t like, Duchene looked pretty darn good. 

 

I change my mind....at this point i want the Flyers to get better...to make the playoffs and if they think Duchene can help and sign him i am open to seeing how it works. 

 

I just want to get back to winning, being in the playoffs like it seemed i had gotten spoiled with.

 

I didn't start being a fan till the Lindros era.

 

So from 1994-95 till 2006-07 i had hockey to excluding the 2004-05 lockout year.

 

Then after the JVR year i will call it there was a stretch 2007-08 to 2012-13 of hockey in the spring of some sort.

 

But from 2012-13 till now it has been leap frog years of making it and not making it.

 

Sorry i have been spoiled i want playoff hockey every year...i have come to expect it...let's do whatever it takes to get back to those types of days.

 

And the best part through all of that the Flyers never really have strong goaltending...now with Hart i want more.

 

So if it takes Duchene to center the 2nd line and i am willing to give them a chance to see if it works.

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2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

I change my mind....at this point i want the Flyers to get better...to make the playoffs and if they think Duchene can help and sign him i am open to seeing how it works.

 

I really don't want to jump the gun because he had a good game. Looking at his career stats, Duchene seems to be a 40-60 pt guy. That's fine, but how much money does he want for that mid-tier production? The Sens offered him 8mil a year, which is too much for me. He's basically a less productive Voracek wanting the same amount of money.

 

Is he cool with a pay cut? That's a start. Is he okay with playing wing if it turns out he is kind of bad at center? Fine.

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2 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I really don't want to jump the gun because he had a good game. Looking at his career stats, Duchene seems to be a 40-60 pt guy. That's fine, but how much money does he want for that mid-tier production? The Sens offered him 8mil a year, which is too much for me. He's basically a less productive Voracek wanting the same amount of money.

 

Is he cool with a pay cut? That's a start. Is he okay with playing wing if it turns out he is kind of bad at center? Fine.

 

It's hard to say and yes the price would change my mind of course.

 

He turned down a 8 year 64 mill deal with Ottawa so maybe it was because it was Ottawa.

 

But the contract his former teammate Stone signed has him seeing $$$$$.

 

If that is the case then pass.

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For me it’s more about term length with Duchene. I’m not interested in giving him a 7 year deal, which I’m sure he probably wants. 

 

5 years would been fine. 

 

Panarin is looking like he’ll get $11m, and a Rangers best writer speculates they could offer $12.33m to offset the Florida tax benefit. 

 

I don’t know, I like the guy, but that seems awfully high for a guy who plays on a side where the team is actually ok.

 

Duchene will be a lot less, and he does play wing. He seems to be a better fit for what we need right now. And if Panarin and Bob leave, why would he stay there?

 

Hayes would be good too.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, brelic said:

Duchene will be a lot less, and he does play wing. He seems to be a better fit for what we need right now. And if Panarin and Bob leave, why would he stay there?

 

I think @OccamsRazor has it right in that Stone's contract is a good barometer for what Duchene will be asking. He has shown in the past he has no interest in settling for lower dollars. He acted like a spoiled brat in Colorado when they offered him a reasonable contract, then did the same in Ottawa. Stone signed for 9.5mil per year. Duchene turned down 8mil. Might be he'll be asking for 8.5 or something. Again, I'm not sure we want to pay 8.5mil for a ~55pt guy.

 

He seems to think he's an elite NHL superstar. The problem is he's never actually been an elite NHL superstar. The only real title he can claim at this point is that he's been chronically overrated for almost his entire career.

 

And I'm not sure I buy the whole "never played with other good players" stuff. He had MacKinnon, O'Reilly, and Landeskog in Colorado. That's far from nothing. I think it's telling how much better the team got once he was gone (sans O'Reilly and with Rantanen, but still).

 

Anyway, I'm not opposed to trying him out. I'm just reluctant given his history both on and off the ice. It's entirely possible next season is the one where he finally figures it out and reaches his touted potential. If he can bump those point totals to at least Voracek numbers, I'll consider paying him like Voracek.

Edited by elmatus
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3 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

I think @OccamsRazor has it right in that Stone's contract is a good barometer for what Duchene will be asking. He has shown in the past he has no interest in settling for lower dollars. He acted like a spoiled brat in Colorado when they offered him a reasonable contract, then did the same in Ottawa. Stone signed for 9.5mil per year. Duchene turned down 8mil. Might be he'll be asking for 8.5 or something. Again, I'm not sure we want to pay 8.5mil for a ~55pt guy.

 

He seems to think he's an elite NHL superstar. The problem is he's never actually been an elite NHL superstar. The only real title he can claim at this point is that he's been chronically overrated for almost his entire career.

 

And I'm not sure I buy the whole "never played with other good players" stuff. He had MacKinnon, O'Reilly, and Landeskog in Colorado. That's far from nothing. I think it's telling how much better the team got once he was gone (sans O'Reilly and with Rantanen, but still).

 

Anyway, I'm not opposed to trying him out. I'm just reluctant given his history both on and off the ice. It's entirely possible next season is the one where he finally figures it out and reaches his touted potential. If he can bump those point totals to at least Voracek numbers, I'll consider paying him like Voracek.

 

The one thing I will say about an $8M cap hit is that it’s probably market value for him right now. Voracek was signed, what, 4 years ago now? It’s hard to compare them evenly.

 

And I say Duchene because he’s one of the best available this summer. So if not him, who? I’d be fine with most of the names people mentioned - Hayes, Connolly, as long as the player can give us 2C production. 

 

Trade is the the other way to go. Toronto, TB, or Edmonton seem like potential partners. 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, brelic said:

The one thing I will say about an $8M cap hit is that it’s probably market value for him right now.

 

That's fair. You're probably right. I'm not sure he'll settle for that amount though. He has turned it down before after all. Would you sign him for 9.5M like what Stone received? We don't have that amount of space now, but there would be ways to get it. Of course, we also have all of Provo, Sanheim, TK, Patrick, and Lindblom who will be needing new contracts very shortly.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I do think Duchene would need to agree to a lower dollar amount than he's been fishing for, and I'm not convinced he'd take a "discount" to play for a team that hasn't won a playoff round since forever. Given his recent history, it seems very likely he's looking to make big money on this next contract -- wherever that may take him.

Edited by elmatus

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10 hours ago, elmatus said:

 

That's fair. You're probably right. I'm not sure he'll settle for that amount though. He has turned it down before after all. Would you sign him for 9.5M like what Stone received? We don't have that amount of space now, but there would be ways to get it. Of course, we also have all of Provo, Sanheim, TK, Patrick, and Lindblom who will be needing new contracts very shortly.

 

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I do think Duchene would need to agree to a lower dollar amount than he's been fishing for, and I'm not convinced he'd take a "discount" to play for a team that hasn't won a playoff round since forever. Given his recent history, it seems very likely he's looking to make big money on this next contract -- wherever that may take him.

 

I'd probably consider the $9M-$9.5M on a 5 year contract. Again, short of finding a better option (i.e. one that suits our needs and timeframe better and also fits within the projected cap and payroll structure), I'd be tempted to give it a shot. 

 

The bottom line is that the Flyers just don't have enough guys playing at a high level. We can keep blaming the coach, but at the end of the day, Craig freakin' Berube has his team playing like world beaters. 

 

In my mind, I guess I've shifted away from youth movement and waiting / expecting them to come in a fill in some of those spots for cheap. We have enough youth on the team, and it's time to acquire some real NHL talent. If that pushes some of our guys out or some prospects further down the depth chart, that's not necessarily a bad thing. True talent will rise to the top, and they'll find their way onto the roster. 

 

 

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3 hours ago, brelic said:

I'd probably consider the $9M-$9.5M on a 5 year contract.

 

Yeah? Man, that seems like an awful lot for a guy like Duchene. It's more than Giroux, who is considerably better. I mean, that "shouldn't" matter, but it might. It could also prevent us from signing all of our youngins when the time comes. 

 

I don't know. I think if it were for someone better, I'd be more open to it. Making $9.5M would put him at the same price point as Kucherov, Malkin, Seguin, and Ovechkin. It would be as much as the freshly signed Stone. All of those players are better than Duchene has been historically. It's a lot of money for a guy who has only cracked 60 pts twice in 12 years.

 

The unfortunate reality here is that truly good 2Cs are very hard to come by. I would guess most are drafted by their teams rather than traded for after the fact.

 

I don't know. I think I would probably stop at the $8M mark like the Sens did. I don't know that he'd go for that to play in Philly though.

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58 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

Yeah? Man, that seems like an awful lot for a guy like Duchene. It's more than Giroux, who is considerably better. I mean, that "shouldn't" matter, but it might. It could also prevent us from signing all of our youngins when the time comes. 

 

Yes, it's more than Giroux, but G signed his contract in the summer of 2013.... which would be 6 years earlier than Duchene this summer.

 

As for how it impacts the cap going forward, I think adding one player at that price point is ok. Adding two - say Karlsson as well - I could see being a real problem.

 

58 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

I don't know. I think if it were for someone better, I'd be more open to it. Making $9.5M would put him at the same price point as Kucherov, Malkin, Seguin, and Ovechkin. It would be as much as the freshly signed Stone. All of those players are better than Duchene has been historically. It's a lot of money for a guy who has only cracked 60 pts twice in 12 years.

 

I agree, it's a lot of money. The caveat is that none of those guys went to the open market, and again, some were signed long ago as the case with Ovechkin. 

 

Yes, it's a lot for a guy with Duchene's production, but he *will* get that kind of contract. The only question is whether Fletcher is willing to pay to acquire talent... because if he doesn't, someone else will. And if we don't acquire some higher end talent, I can see another mediocre, bubble season on the horizon.

 

58 minutes ago, elmatus said:

 

The unfortunate reality here is that truly good 2Cs are very hard to come by. I would guess most are drafted by their teams rather than traded for after the fact.

 

I don't know. I think I would probably stop at the $8M mark like the Sens did. I don't know that he'd go for that to play in Philly though.

 

The $8M rejection could be because it was Ottawa, who knows? 

 

If Fletch can do better, than by all means, that works for me. A trade will cost us assets though, and I'm not sure there's a better UFA at center this summer than Duchene. 

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      I think @OccamsRazor has it right in that Stone's contract is a good barometer for what Duchene will be asking. He has shown in the past he has no interest in settling for lower dollars. He acted like a spoiled brat in Colorado when they offered him a reasonable contract, then did the same in Ottawa. Stone signed for 9.5mil per year. Duchene turned down 8mil. Might be he'll be asking for 8.5 or something. Again, I'm not sure we want to pay 8.5mil for a ~55pt guy.   He seems to think he
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      Q didn't want to come here IMO, because he recognized the utter incompetence of the people at the top of the Flyers organization. So, he got on a plane, said "Thanks, but no thanks.". and left.
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      Thank God. At least until we see who they bring in. 
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      @flyer4ever Question, would you rather the team quit in January or once they were actually eliminated from the playoffs ?     You are not the only guy writing this, but you are the most recent I've seen.    To me these guys didn't check out until after they lost to the Habs and Caps in the same week.  They came up small in those two games and were essentially eliminated. I was at the Islanders game at the end of that week, they still had some spunk early on but we
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      I watched the Tampa / Columbus game last night, and the Flyers seem pretty far away in comparison.    And for a guy people here don’t like, Duchene looked pretty darn good.    The Flyers need players who play at a high level and produce. They haven’t done that, so I’m good with adding players that can. 
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