Game 17: Flyers at Bruins 11/10/19 7pm

[jammer2]

Just tossing this out there...but the Kings seem in line for a full scale rebuild. If guys like Toffoli, Quick and Doughty were traded for picks and or prospects a need for a relatively cheap pp option like Ghost could arise. 

[elmatus]

6 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

Just tossing this out there...but the Kings seem in line for a full scale rebuild. If guys like Toffoli, Quick and Doughty were traded for picks and or prospects a need for a relatively cheap pp option like Ghost could arise. 

 

I'm not sure those three guys make much sense for the Flyers, but I could see them take a stab at Martinez to replace Ghost in the line up. @OccamsRazor offered that as a possibility in another thread. It would give LA a PP specialist on the back end who should be good for another 3-4 years in that role, and we would get a steadier defensive hand for our 2nd or 3rd pairing.

Edited November 12, 2019 by elmatus

[ruxpin]

8 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

If guys like Toffoli,

 

Is my dislike of Toffoli misplaced?  I argued against him on another thread, but is he more about situation than him?    You just look at his production, and while decent, you think it really should be so much more.   But is that more about the team he's on?

 

I'm not that happy about Martinez. I mean, I suppose, but I'm not really anxious to trade Ghost for him.  Yeah, Ghost is a mess in his own end, but that's kind of 3rd pair to me anyway.   On the other hand, he really does log a lot of minutes and is only barely negative (+/-) on a horrible team.

[elmatus]

4 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I'm not that happy about Martinez. I mean, I suppose, but I'm not really anxious to trade Ghost for him.  Yeah, Ghost is a mess in his own end, but that's kind of 3rd pair to me anyway.   On the other hand, he really does log a lot of minutes and is only barely negative (+/-) on a horrible team.

 

I do think being on a crap team is part of it for Martinez. As far as Ghost goes, the problem is that he really shouldn't be on the ice 5v5, but we don't have any other option. If we could keep him as our 7th dman with a better third pairing option to replace him, then sure, whatever. But as awful as Ghost is outside of the PP, Hagg is worse, so we're kind of in a bind.

 

At the same time, we don't really need Ghost on the PP anymore either. To me that means we're holding on to a PP specialist who is virtually always a negative at even strength. Martinez isn't flashy, but I do think he's more dependable in his own end. 

 

Provo/Niskanen

Myers/Sanheim

Ghost/Braun --> Martinez/Braun

 

Martinez stands to be significantly better than Ghost at even strength (mostly given Ghost is a train wreck).

 

PP1: Giroux, Provo, JVR, Farabee, Voracek

PP2: Couts, TK, Lindblom, Niskanen, Ghost --> Myers/Sanheim

 

This might be a bit of a downgrade, but I don't think it would be too bad. In fact, if Myers keeps growing, this may happen anyway.

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

So, I'm looking to move Jake, but I want a return. A 32 year old meh defenseman and a meh winger ain't it

 

Some of this is to make the money work for Ghost and Jake though.

 

And I would ask for a draft pick back too.

 

The deal at this point wouldn't be finalized yet we are free to tweak it.

 

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

 

 

Ultimately, it comes down--for me--to trading Jake just to trade Jake and not getting the value I think we should. And for a struggling team, I don't know why LA does this. 

 

Sure I guess but we're talking about a GM who went out sign Kovalchuk too.

 

So they would have possible 65-70 point RW back. As I said I'm tired of Jake to but he does have value this isn't like trading Vinny.

 

Is that enough value back I think so a 27 RW in his prime.

 

Would I want more in return sure yes but without something tangible to weigh it against I can't really say.

 

And as we said the Flyers don't have to do anything so they have the leverage really.

[ruxpin]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Sure I guess but we're talking about a GM who went out sign Kovalchuk too.

 

Man, that's a fair point.

 

Yeah, the more I'm thinking about it, it's really not that horrible.  If you throw in some kind of pick, I think I could tolerate it.  And once I got on the computer instead of my phone, I guess Martinez is a better option than I gave him credit for.  Certainly better than Ghost.

[OccamsRazor]

46 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I'm not that happy about Martinez. I mean, I suppose, but I'm not really anxious to trade Ghost for him.  Yeah, Ghost is a mess in his own end, but that's kind of 3rd pair to me anyway.   On the other hand, he really does log a lot of minutes and is only barely negative (+/-) on a horrible team.

 

Ok so we could just move Ghost if that is the case and Martinez can be exposed in the expansion draft too.

 

So I can see that but I need something back too.

 

How about Authur Kaliyev and Martinez for Ghost that seems fair...no?

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, ruxpin said:

Martinez is a better option than I gave him credit for. 

 

I think so and if he can tutor Myers what is that worth?

 

Provorov/Niskanen

Sanheim/Bruan

Martinez/Meyers

Hagg

 

Is a very solid defense for a playoff push no?

[brelic]

I don't see that kind of trade with LA happening, especially if Jake is involved. 

 

Jake is more of an offseason move, I'd say - or a move that involves swapping underperforming contracts, like say Jamie Benn.

 

Not interested in Benn in the least.. .though I'd move a lot for Seguin. Voracek and Patrick for Seguin and their 1st? 

 

Minnesota might be a candidate simply because of the Fletch connection. Though there ain't much on that roster that is appealing and that would realistically be available. 

 

Arizona? They could use some help on wing. They have a GM who believes hockey is played in Excel spreadsheets, so who knows. 

 

 

[elmatus]

49 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Some of this is to make the money work for Ghost and Jake though.

 

And I would ask for a draft pick back too.

 

The deal at this point wouldn't be finalized yet we are free to tweak it.

 

Yeah, but rebuilding teams don't trade away picks. They also don't trade for Jakes.

 

I'd start with the Ghost for Martinez swap and work from there. That much would make sense to me for both teams.

 

49 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Is that enough value back I think so a 27 RW in his prime.

 

 

It's too much value back -- that's the problem. If Voracek was also 27, then maybe this could make sense, but he isn't. He's on the wrong side of 30, which makes it unlikely that a rebuilding team like LA is going to want to touch him (or at least give up anything notable to get him).

 

Assuming they do choose to rebuild (which they should), LA is going to want to: A) get younger and B) stockpile picks and prospects. Voracek for Toffoli does neither of those things. In fact, it's essentially a step in the wrong direction for them.

 

Ghost for Martinez makes more sense. I can't imagine we'd get a pick with it though, unless it's a low round pick or something. Again, rebuilding teams don't generally trade away draft picks.

 

 

Edited November 12, 2019 by elmatus

[elmatus]

36 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Provorov/Niskanen

Sanheim/Bruan

Martinez/Meyers

 

Provo/Niskanen

Myers/Sanheim

Martinez/Braun

 

That's how I'd set them up. Myers has been our third best dman since his arrival. He should be given ice time in relation to that until he proves otherwise imo. Braun on the other hand has been lacklustre to date, though I'm thinking a lot of that has to do with being paired with Ghost.

 

Also, sorry for the double post... I wanted to edit this into my last post, but I guess not

Edited November 12, 2019 by elmatus

[mojo1917]

20 hours ago, King Knut said:

The thing this team needs most is a 3C and they have one crushing it in LHV and they're just refusing to bring him up.

 

 

this is just not true- it's a bad narrative and I wish people would just stop with it.

Frost isn't "toying" with the AHL.

He isn't dominant,  I just saw him Sunday, he' wasn't even the most standout player on his line that night.

 

Farabee made no doubt that he was an NHL player by destroying the league in his 6 games or whatever. 

Frost hasn't been that guy,  the ice never tilted in his direction, he never looked "AHL dangerous". which for me has always been every time a player goes over the boards you wait for something good to happen. 

He will get schooled in the NHL right now.

Then we all get to hear about him being a bust, which he shouldn't be because the talent is there.

 

He was manhandled a lot Sunday night

He got pushed around  and looked like he hasn't figured out how to get the puck to go with him at that level,

 

He's not the Flyers 3C answer - yet.

 

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, elmatus said:

It's too much value back -- that's the problem. If Voracek was also 27, then maybe this could make sense, but he isn't. He's on the wrong side of 30

 

Sure but that is why you're giving 26 year old Ghost back to compensate. 

 

But I would be fine with Martinez and Ghost deal but what else am I getting for that I'm not giving Ghost for him straight up so I need something else back?

[elmatus]

5 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Sure but that is why you're giving 26 year old Ghost back to compensate. 

 

But I would be fine with Martinez and Ghost deal but what else am I getting for that I'm not giving Ghost for him straight up so I need something else back?

 

I can get that, but I think this just makes LA an unlikely trading partner. I don't think they're going to want to touch Jake, even less so if it means getting rid of Toffoli. It would make more sense to trade him to another team where they'd be getting more future-potential returns.

[jammer2]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

 

Is my dislike of Toffoli misplaced?  I argued against him on another thread, but is he more about situation than him?    You just look at his production, and while decent, you think it really should be so much more.   But is that more about the team he's on?

 

I'm not that happy about Martinez. I mean, I suppose, but I'm not really anxious to trade Ghost for him.  Yeah, Ghost is a mess in his own end, but that's kind of 3rd pair to me anyway.   On the other hand, he really does log a lot of minutes and is only barely negative (+/-) on a horrible team.

I was not advocating acquiring Toff, Doughty or Quick...was just saying if they were to move on from them...someone would have to fill the Doughty void and Ghost is cost efficient for a top pp qb.

  Just dreaming of ways to move on from Ghost. He will never be reliable in his own end and having a top 6 guy like him is something that opponents key on in the playoffs...soft and not ultra smart....as we would had seen had we not missed the playoffs for the last meldonium. 

[Podein25]

18 minutes ago, jammer2 said:

meldonium

 

Sounds yummy!

Edited November 12, 2019 by Podein25

[ruxpin]

@OccamsRazor

 

I haven't gone through any numbers, etc., because I was just thinking about this and can't look anything up.

 

What would Voracek/Ghost for Zucker/Dumba look like?   Would it even work with the cap?    Minny has Zucker on the LW right now, but he's played both.   He could slot in on the 3RW, I think.   He hasn''t been very...um...exciting the past couple of years, but I'm wondering if he couldn't benefit from a change.  I doubt Minny trades Dumba, but I think I'd kick the tires on it.

[King Knut]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

 

this is just not true- it's a bad narrative and I wish people would just stop with it.

Frost isn't "toying" with the AHL.

He isn't dominant,  I just saw him Sunday, he' wasn't even the most standout player on his line that night.

 

Farabee made no doubt that he was an NHL player by destroying the league in his 6 games or whatever. 

Frost hasn't been that guy,  the ice never tilted in his direction, he never looked "AHL dangerous". which for me has always been every time a player goes over the boards you wait for something good to happen. 

He will get schooled in the NHL right now.

Then we all get to hear about him being a bust, which he shouldn't be because the talent is there.

 

He was manhandled a lot Sunday night

He got pushed around  and looked like he hasn't figured out how to get the puck to go with him at that level,

 

He's not the Flyers 3C answer - yet.

 

 

He leads the team.  It's not even close really.

He got manhandled and still managed to score a goal.  

 

I'm not saying you don't have a point. And I'm not saying he couldn't do with more time.  I'm saying that 3C is a very big question on this team right now that's causing more problems than are currently evident because they're still managing to win games.  

 

Frost may not be as complete an answer to that question as he could be in March or this time next year, but he's the only answer to a very important question that the team doesn't seem to be asking.

 

Laughton will be back soon. Maybe that'll help.   I don't know.  I do know that the team could be playing better than they are and scoring more than they are right now and 3C is the most apparent reason why they're not. 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

43 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

@OccamsRazor

 

I haven't gone through any numbers, etc., because I was just thinking about this and can't look anything up.

 

What would Voracek/Ghost for Zucker/Dumba look like?   Would it even work with the cap?    Minny has Zucker on the LW right now, but he's played both.   He could slot in on the 3RW, I think.   He hasn''t been very...um...exciting the past couple of years, but I'm wondering if he couldn't benefit from a change.  I doubt Minny trades Dumba, but I think I'd kick the tires on it.

 

The biggest issue with that is that Dumba is a righty and they already have Niskanen, Braun and Myers.

 

So otherwise I would listen to that.

[OccamsRazor]

47 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

What would Voracek/Ghost for Zucker/Dumba look like? 

 

What about Zucker/Brodin for Voracek/Ghost?

[elmatus]

13 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

What about Zucker/Brodin for Voracek/Ghost?

 

I'd rather have Dumba personally. Voracek is the biggest name of that bunch. We should be able to get the better dman in Dumba if that trade ever went down.

 

It's worth noting Dumba is a top pairing guy. He's very good. That's obviously not a bad thing if ever we were to acquire him. I'm just saying. He's not a third pairing guy for sure. Getting Dumba pushes both Sanheim and Myers down the depth chart pretty easily. He could also swap in for Provo or Niskanen if either of them falter throughout the season.

 

Provo/Niskanen

Dumba/Myers

Sanheim/Braun

 

That's one hell of a blueline frankly. If Myers keeps blossoming, that could be one of the best d-corps in the NHL.

 

As far as Frost goes, I'm still not convinced we'll see him on the team this season. I think he may be a 2020-21 thing. If we do see him, it'll only be if all other options have been exhausted. Both Raffl and Laughton will get looks on the 3/4th first, and my guess is Rubstov would get another solid look on the fourth as well. Vorobyev I think is probably about done.

Edited November 12, 2019 by elmatus

[OccamsRazor]

25 minutes ago, elmatus said:

Dumba/Myers

 

I just don't like two right hand shots on the same pair.

 

Two lefties sure but not two righties.

 

I'm not a fan of his 6 mill per prixe tag either.

 

Sure if he can get back to his 50 point season maybe but Ghost had a 65 point season too one time.

 

I need further convincing on this one.

[OccamsRazor]

43 minutes ago, elmatus said:

As far as Frost goes, I'm still not convinced we'll see him on the team this season. I think he may be a 2020-21 thing. If we do see him, it'll only be if all other options have been exhausted. Both Raffl and Laughton will get looks on the 3/4th first, and my guess is Rubstov would get another solid look on the fourth as well. Vorobyev I think is probably about done.

 

Yeah not sure if this is directed at me or what I never mentioned Frost.

 

I see him staying down till maybe even the spring maybe no sense in rushing him while he has parts of his game to work on.

[OccamsRazor]

@elmatus

 

I agree on Vorobyev unfortunately I see him heading back to the KHL unless Chuckles wants to move him at the deadline in some package deal just not impressed with his effort.

 

He has game but I hate having to motivate guys.

[mojo1917]

36 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

I agree on Vorobyev unfortunately I see him heading back to the KHL unless Chuckles wants to move him at the deadline in some package deal just not impressed with his effort.

 

He has game but I hate having to motivate guys.

 

He was not impressive Sunday either, I thought for sure he would be one of the better players on the ice and he just wasn't.

I think Rubstov has better speed and a better range of skills, he was on Misha's wing and he did a nice job on the forecheck and won some puck battles.

Vorobyev just didn't look engaged, even after getting high sticked in the mouth.  Hockey seems like something he does, and is pretty good at...doesn't seem to take it personally the way Kyle Criscullo does.