mojo1917 Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said: Wonder what they are waiting on to qualify Nolan Patrick??? He doesn't have any leverage. So make him an offer. I think this depends on whether or not "you" (not you per se) think Patrick is part of the solution going forward. Probably not the best thing to low-ball the kid, get him good and pissed off at the organization. There is a relationship aspect to sports business that is often overlooked, it is a fine line to walk and being fair to a guy that can help your team seems wise. These are people in addition to being assets- for this reason I think sports GMing is probably a very difficult profession. I would think negotiating in good faith for a reasonable prove it type deal would be beneficial to both sides. Finding a common "reasonable" may be worth an extra week or two. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I think this depends on whether or not "you" (not you per se) think Patrick is part of the solution going forward. Probably not the best thing to low-ball the kid, get him good and pissed off at the organization. There is a relationship aspect to sports business that is often overlooked, it is a fine line to walk and being fair to a guy that can help your team seems wise. These are people in addition to being assets- for this reason I think sports GMing is probably a very difficult profession. I would think negotiating in good faith for a reasonable prove it type deal would be beneficial to both sides. Finding a common "reasonable" may be worth an extra week or two. @OccamsRazor is right. Patrick has nothing. Offer him the QO and if he doesn't sign it, you still retain his rights. Right now he has nothing in terms of negotiating rights. He should be lucky that he's even receiving a QO and he needs to understand that he has no leverage and he should jump at the QO. Edited September 30, 2020 by BobbyClarkeFan16 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share Posted September 30, 2020 2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Probably not the best thing to low-ball the kid, get him good and pissed off at the organization. Honestly i wouldn't be to concern with this if it did. He can't be offered sheeted and he doesn't have arbitration rights. He hasn't played since April 2nd 2019. He has to show me something before i sign him to anything other than a team friendly deal. 5 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: There is a relationship aspect to sports business that is often overlooked, it is a fine line to walk and being fair to a guy that can help your team seems wise. This isn't lost on me but when there is a flat cap and very little cap space sorry he gets a small slice of the pie. It's business at the end of the day. And Chuckles has very little to hedge his bet and it bite them in the ass honestly this past season. 7 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: I would think negotiating in good faith for a reasonable prove it type deal would be beneficial to both sides. Finding a common "reasonable" may be worth an extra week or two. Yes i hope they can work it out. A two year deal is what they should be looking for...but at this point i would take a one year prove it deal. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 minute ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: @OccamsRazor is right. Patrick has nothing. Offer him the QO and if he doesn't sign it, you still retain his rights. Right now he has nothing in terms of negotiating rights. He should be lucky that he's even receiving a QO and he needs to understand that he has no leverage and he should jump at the QO. So make sure he signs elsewhere when he can then ? The interviews I've seen Fletcher seems want to hang in there with Patrick. So tell him- *****' take the deal Nolan, you got nothing ? I don't know, seems like a ****** way to do business. YMMV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share Posted September 30, 2020 11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Finding a common "reasonable" may be worth an extra week or two. I'd love to get this guy back... Man it sure could have been useful to have him this past playoff run... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 @OccamsRazor @BobbyClarkeFan16 make no mistake I'm not saying bend over backwards to accommodate the kid. I'm saying there is more value to treating the kid like he could be an important piece of the team's future, if the GM thinks that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 minute ago, mojo1917 said: @OccamsRazor @BobbyClarkeFan16 make no mistake I'm not saying bend over backwards to accommodate the kid. I'm saying there is more value to treating the kid like he could be an important piece of the team's future, if the GM thinks that. I trust Chuckles in this process. I haven't had any reason to think otherwise (and no i am only going by what i have seen from him in Philly IDGAF what happened in Minnesota). They will come to a reasonable deal that suits both sides i just would rather them lock this stuff up as soon as possible i think Myers will be the tricky one to lock down. He should get something between what Sanheim and Hagg just signed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share Posted September 30, 2020 Free agency begins next week, and Cherry Hill, New Jersey, native Bobby Ryan, who was recently bought out by the Ottawa Senators, is a free agent. Naturally, he’s being linked to the Flyers, and Ryan is no stranger to that. https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/flyers/bobby-ryan-bought-out-senators-flyers-high-my-list-nhl-free-agency “Yeah, it would be very, very highly considered for sure, I’ve got some close personal relationships with Bobby Clarke and some of the other people in the organization that are very appealing to be around, day in and day out," Ryan said. "It would be very, very high on my list and hard to top, getting to spend some time with my dad at home and things like that, there are a lot of elements to making that very attracting, but for me first I have to see if they’re in play for me. I don’t know if that’s something they look at and want to do, I’ll let them decide and then I’ll make my decision after that.” Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 3 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Free agency begins next week, and Cherry Hill, New Jersey, native Bobby Ryan, who was recently bought out by the Ottawa Senators, is a free agent. Naturally, he’s being linked to the Flyers, and Ryan is no stranger to that. https://www.nbcsports.com/philadelphia/flyers/bobby-ryan-bought-out-senators-flyers-high-my-list-nhl-free-agency “Yeah, it would be very, very highly considered for sure, I’ve got some close personal relationships with Bobby Clarke and some of the other people in the organization that are very appealing to be around, day in and day out," Ryan said. "It would be very, very high on my list and hard to top, getting to spend some time with my dad at home and things like that, there are a lot of elements to making that very attracting, but for me first I have to see if they’re in play for me. I don’t know if that’s something they look at and want to do, I’ll let them decide and then I’ll make my decision after that.” Would he have any value as a fourth line player who can score 10-15 goals and provide some physical play. I haven’t seen him play in years, can he skate, Is he washed up? any idea what kinda $$ he is looking for ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Howie58 Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 5 hours ago, OccamsRazor said: Speaking of i know you like your odds Howie...so this is a plus i guess for the Flyers...but we'll see...5th best odds. Occ: Invoking my late, great mom: "From your lips to God's ears." I guess they think our youngins will round out and Hart turns into the next Patrick Roy. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted September 30, 2020 Author Share Posted September 30, 2020 45 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: Would he have any value as a fourth line player who can score 10-15 goals and provide some physical play. I haven’t seen him play in years, can he skate, Is he washed up? any idea what kinda $$ he is looking for ? Not sure I have no answers on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 53 minutes ago, RonJeremy said: Would he have any value as a fourth line player who can score 10-15 goals and provide some physical play. I haven’t seen him play in years, can he skate, Is he washed up? any idea what kinda $$ he is looking for ? I'd avoid him. I get that he went to rehab and he's not boozing anymore, but his skating is barely adequate and having him in the lineup means that a young player is stuck in Lehigh Valley because Ryan would basically be guaranteed a spot in the lineup. Big pass from me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 1 hour ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: I'd avoid him. I get that he went to rehab and he's not boozing anymore, but his skating is barely adequate and having him in the lineup means that a young player is stuck in Lehigh Valley because Ryan would basically be guaranteed a spot in the lineup. Big pass from me. Since it’s a flat cap , the only reason the Flyers would think of signing him is if the price is right , he would help on the leadership dept and with the physical part of the game. Many of our young guys like Patrick, Allison, Rubstov , Laberge , Morin, etc lost so much development time due to injuries and now COVID and now everyone is gonna sit around until December. Guys like Allison probably would have been NHL ready by now, but everything has been set back. If we trade Jake , I could see us signing Ryan for a one year deal to buy some time for Allison to be ready. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 19 hours ago, mojo1917 said: Probably not the best thing to low-ball the kid, get him good and pissed off at the organization Why? Whats he gonna do about it? The Flyers have a history of taking care of their players like family. Coincidentally, they have a history of not winning a Stanley Cup Edited October 1, 2020 by CoachX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 1 minute ago, CoachX said: Why? Whats he gonna do about it? Be a disruption ? Not play to his abilities ? Always resent his employer for treating him callously. Thus guaranteeing the pick was in fact wasted because the team never got to benefit from the kid playing to his potential. Which is substantial. Wouldn't you rather have the kid work out ? I would. He can be the answer to the issue at center. He's big, not slow, he has some punk in his game, he's got a ++ shot and isn't afraid to turn it loose plus he's got wicked hand-eye coordination. Being an ass to him in negotiations doesn't seem to be an effective way to elicit an outcome where the kid helps the team and wants to play for the organization. I'm not talking about 4m aav for 5 years, I'm talking about ; "your QA is 1.3 we're going to go 1.6 for 2 and see how you do..."that's not low balling, it's good faith negotiating. The situation can be win/win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 19 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Be a disruption ? Not play to his abilities ? Always resent his employer for treating him callously. Thus guaranteeing the pick was in fact wasted because the team never got to benefit from the kid playing to his potential. Which is substantial. Wouldn't you rather have the kid work out ? Disruption: Not play to abilities (not playing is same thing): Do I want the kid to work out? Yes. But he cant even "work out" Im coming off callous, but Im not meaning to. I like the kid and hope he can play. But I dont think this team should be gambling on "what ifs". Its regularly argued on here that they shouldnt sign FA players who are what ifs. Why should they bend over to sign one? Philly fans are loyal. We love knowing our teams and players are totally devoted, and admire the hero stories. But we have seen over time how this franchise offers coaching jobs to former players, and coddle current players. It doesnt translate to championships In this case, Patrick is hope at best. And as I recall, when he was playing, he showed signs of being good, but was far from being worthy of where he was drafted. Its a business. The flyers need to sign him to contract that benefits the franchise. If Patrick doesnt like it, and decides to behave the way you suggested, he better hope he puts up superstar numbers. And at this point he isnt sure he will ever play. No team is gonna want a health risk with a bad attitude Edited October 1, 2020 by CoachX 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 27 minutes ago, CoachX said: Do I want the kid tonwork out? Yes. But he cant even "work out" Do you know something I don't https://www.buckscountycouriertimes.com/story/sports/2020/09/10/gm-chuck-fletcher-hoping-nolan-patrick-return-next-season/3457306001/ This is the same thing that was also in the Inquirer, essentially. He is (fitness)working out, he is expected to play. The malady can be treated and seems like the treatments are working. If anything, more "hope & faith" is being attributed to Oscar Lindblom's situation. That dude had part of his rib cage removed...he's had radiation and other treatments... that is a case where people thinking he's a sure thing is wildly misplaced. Also, was Patrick in the locker room whining? Was he in the papers criticizing anyone or anything? I don't remember reading or hearing about that, I do remember an interview where he was not happy because he couldn't play... I would think you'd want the kid to want to play. There's no situation where being an ass to someone changes their behavior positively for any significant length of time. Maybe treating people poorly has worked for you in your life, but in my 50 years- it's never been more than a temporary motivator and when I've perceived I've been treated poorly, I made my opinions known and if concessions weren't made I left. Also I've been in situations where I've treated people poorly and those situations are included in my largest regrets and moments of failure as a human. If you've been reading my posts, what i'm saying is being decent to the kid can still be team friendly. Chuck Fletcher doesn't appear to be a hard-ass, why would he assume that role in this negotiation? Edited October 1, 2020 by mojo1917 grammar, it's always grammar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 10 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Maybe treating people poorly has worked for you in your life Ok. Settle down. There is no need to make personal attacks. You dont know anything about me Why is it, when people engage you and dont agree with you, you get nasty. Just debate the issues The difference between Lindblom and Patrick is Lindblom was having a breakout year, and was leading the team is goals. Patrick was still developing, and hadnt reached what they thought he would be when he was drafted. He also hadnt played a full season in his first 2 years. Im not saying they tell him to go f**k himself, Im saying they take a firm stance based in the risk of him ever playing again, and the current needs of the team Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 46 minutes ago, mojo1917 said: Maybe treating people poorly has worked for you in your life, This is nasty and a personal attack? Not my intention, I apologize. I disagree with any assessment that says Patrick is a bust, and should be happy he's even being qualified. We don't know what he is yet? We haven't had the opportunity to see what he can be. He's the #2 overall pick, he hasn't had the opportunity to play a full season because the migrane issue was undiagnosed. It would stand to reason that affected his play even when he was available, yes? Now, it's been discovered, and is being treated. Others with the same malady have shown to be reliable players. Niklas Backstrom has the same thing. I work telling cancer patients stories all about 30% of the year, (mostly blood cancers) Those people are never the same, not just emotionally but physically as well. They are treated with poison, and radiation, things that KILL humans. Their brains work differently after the treatments and their bodies are never the same. It could be that Lindblom is fine and that is my sincere hope, however after the treatments his bones might be more brittle, he might not be able to think the game at his high level...Breakout season or not, what Oscar has been through leaves me with far more questions about his health going forward than does Patrick's situation. No one is saying 3 x 3 for him is bad business, but it might turn out to be. To be clear I think Fletcher did right by Oscar. That contract represents a larger risk than goosing Patrick's QA on a prove it deal. Edited October 1, 2020 by mojo1917 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyClarkeFan16 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 I still hate the Patrick pick more and more. I really wish they drafted Cody Glass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, BobbyClarkeFan16 said: I still hate the Patrick pick more and more. I really wish they drafted Cody Glass. They drafted a guy made of glass. That should count 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 1 hour ago, mojo1917 said: This is nasty and a personal attack? Not my intention, I apologize. I disagree with any assessment that says Patrick is a bust, and should be happy he's even being qualified. We don't know what he is yet? We haven't had the opportunity to see what he can be. He's the #2 overall pick, he hasn't had the opportunity to play a full season because the migrane issue was undiagnosed. It would stand to reason that affected his play even when he was available, yes? Now, it's been discovered, and is being treated. Others with the same malady have shown to be reliable players. Niklas Backstrom has the same thing. I work telling cancer patients stories all about 30% of the year, (mostly blood cancers) Those people are never the same, not just emotionally but physically as well. They are treated with poison, and radiation, things that KILL humans. Their brains work differently after the treatments and their bodies are never the same. It could be that Lindblom is fine and that is my sincere hope, however after the treatments his bones might be more brittle, he might not be able to think the game at his high level...Breakout season or not, what Oscar has been through leaves me with far more questions about his health going forward than does Patrick's situation. No one is saying 3 x 3 for him is bad business, but it might turn out to be. To be clear I think Fletcher did right by Oscar. That contract represents a larger risk than goosing Patrick's QA on a prove it deal. Patrick's injuries have not just been limited to migraines. He's had shoulder and hernia issues going all the way back to 2013. The migraine issue has not been an issue until last season. You mentioned "bust". Im not sure I ever said that, and I dont think it. I think he has never amounted to a significant impact player worthy of a number 2 overall pick. And based on previous injury history, and this more significant migraine problem, I dont think he has any leverage, nor has he earned any. The franchise has hard decisions to make, and not alot or room to do it. At this point they have no way of knowing what he can be, or if he will even be able to play Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 8 minutes ago, CoachX said: Patrick's injuries have not just been limited to migraines. He's had shoulder and hernia issues going all the way back to 2013. Exactly well documented and they ignored it and rolled the dice. My biggest issue is when he gets healthy he to me is just one cheap shot to the dome away from being out again for another year or longer. It is why i would be down with moving him as soon as (if he ever s does) shows he can play......trade him before he breaks again.... ...i had seen rumors the Jets might have interest in him....if so pursue it...before they are left with nothing for him. Is it risky could he prove us all wrong and turn into a great player like Sharp or Justin Williams when they were moved early??? Absolutely without doubt they could but i don't have a good feeling about this kid and his injury. So i would move him ASAP. And i no that isn't a popular decision. But if i could (just for example) get a Nick Ehlers and a pick for a Patrick, JVR and Ghost package i pull the trigger so quick your head would spin.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mojo1917 Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 51 minutes ago, CoachX said: You mentioned "bust". Im not sure I ever said that, and I dont think it. I think he has never amounted to a significant impact player worthy of a number 2 overall pick. If the Flyers sell low on him without really getting a decent look at him as a pro, that is a wasted #2 pick. That is the definition of a bust. So you might not be saying it, but that's what it would be. I also think the fact the team expects him to contribute in 20-21 is a good sign. I don't have any knowledge that the front office doesn't. I don't think anyone here does either. So I am baffled by the level of ambivalence and in some cases vitriol directed towards a guy we haven't really seen play. He is a late birthday kid so maybe his dominance in juniors was because he was older ? He was dominant in junior when he was on the ice. I don't think without hindsight anyone would watch him at Brandon and not think he was going to be a very good pro. At the time it was a two player draft with him and Hircshier, then a drop off to the next group. Were there concerns about his injury history ? I can't remember, probably some, it was not in the forefront of anyone's mind I remember talking with when the Flyers had that #2 pick. What I do remember was pretty great production even though he missed a portion of the season with his injury, Couturier missed significant time because of mono and had big numbers...this was what I remember hearing and reading. Was he rushed because of the Schenn trade? Did the Flyers handle the injury properly? Hindsight is always 20/20 . Edited October 1, 2020 by mojo1917 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted October 1, 2020 Author Share Posted October 1, 2020 2 hours ago, mojo1917 said: If the Flyers sell low on him without really getting a decent look at him as a pro, that is a wasted #2 pick. That is the definition of a bust. So you might not be saying it, but that's what it would be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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