Patrick hires new agent...might want oit

[flyercanuck]

9 hours ago, radoran said:

 

Foerster I believe is back to juniors.

 

The other four strike me as deck chairs...

 

I imagine Foerster comes back to Barrie. And Wisdom to Kingston to ride shotgun with nexts years 1st overall Shane Wright. And yes I do think it will be good for him.

[flyercanuck]

9 hours ago, radoran said:

 

My wife adores sloths which explains her choice of husband.

 

Not registered.

 

If this team put as much effort and energy this season into playing hockey as they did coming up with "reasons" they were mediocre they might have actually been better.

 

 Sloths are awesome. I prefer the 3 toed. 

 

 

 I agree.

[ruxpin]

1 hour ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 This is the first "get rid of Patrick" post I've read on here that actually makes any sense to me. I still wouldn't trade him unless it was something of value (a 2nd or 3rd is NOT the value of Patrick if he gets going, which is what you're drafting for) but at least there's reasoning other than "He sucks, I don't care if his health was a huge factor and his entire team completely gave up, that's on him". 

 

 I don't know wtf is going on with the Flyers but some of the best young talent I've ever seen them have at one time is not developing. This isn't just Patrick. Hart looked like we FINALLY had the answer, then he completely regresses. Provorov who looked great and now looks mediocre. Konecny who looked great and now looks mediocre. Myers was really coming into his own. Now he's terrible.  Sanheim. Ghost (I know, injuries). Lindblom (same) NAK. I've never seen anything like it. All on the same team. 

 

 There should be a purge in this org. But I don't think it should be these talented young guys. 

 

Yeah, when it's ALL the kids and it seems repeated over time, I look long and hard at the organization.  I know it's easy to point at the scouts and just say "we overvalued" or "the picks are horrible."   Neither are true --sure, in specific instances, but I don't think in general.  And as you noted, many have shown they are good out of the gate.  The Flyers, as an organization, are DOING something to them and this has been going on for some time.

 

I read something this morning (solely conjecture and fan-rambling) suggesting Patrick and  our 1st for Hronek and (nameless) bottom 6.   I don't know that I'm excited about that but I'd think about it.

 

I get the position you've taken previously. Really.   I just think he's done as a Flyer. I really think this is a past tense situation and think there's zero chance *in Philly* so why wait?   I hate buying high and selling low.  It's a horrible practice in any business.  My thought is this isn't selling low vs selling high.  It's low vs. lower, IMO.   I also realize this could be typical Philly "the sky is falling," but while possible, I don't think so in this case.

 

But just from Patrick's point of view and in the interest of his career, I think another year of this really hurts him.  He needs a fresh start and the sooner the better.  I really wish our listless GM would have done SOMETHING at the deadline. I mean, look what the Panthers paid for Sam freaking Bennett -- another guy who really needed a change, though I don't think as much as Patrick does.

 

The Flyers can't be about trading assets for humanitarian reasons.  At least not continuously.   But they need to fix whatever is infecting their kids.   In the meantime, set my people free!

[radoran]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

I don't know wtf is going on with the Flyers but some of the best young talent I've ever seen them have at one time is not developing. This isn't just Patrick. Hart looked like we FINALLY had the answer, then he completely regresses. Provorov who looked great and now looks mediocre. Konecny who looked great and now looks mediocre. Myers was really coming into his own. Now he's terrible.  Sanheim. Ghost (I know, injuries). Lindblom (same) NAK. I've never seen anything like it. All on the same team. 

 

No camp, no practice time, and apparently guys who couldn't find any way to get off the couch and onto a rink. In Canada.

 

No, really.

 

I think the first two factors are real. I think the third shows a clear lack of discipline and desire. Other guys got time. Some guy in EDMONTON just put up 100+ points in a little more than half a season.

 

Goalies took it on the chin this year, especially early on. Hart doesn't have the veteran experience of say a Saaros nor the defense of Nashville in front of him. Give him and the d a camp and if he's still in the doldrums THEN they've got problems.

 

I still question overall leadership here, from Dave "we DESERVE a good hockey team" Scott on down.

 

To me there is a clear sense of entitlement NOBODY on this organization* has ever come CLOSE to earning.

[radoran]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

And Wisdom to Kingston

 

Yeah forgot he was a "have to be NHL or junior" level. No reason at all to push him into the NHL.

 

Patrick clearly wasn't ready for the NHL when he was inked into the lineup on draft day...

[CoachX]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

No camp, no practice time, and apparently guys who couldn't find any way to get off the couch and onto a rink. In Canada.

 

No, really.

 

I think the first two factors are real. I think the third shows a clear lack of discipline and desire. Other guys got time. Some guy in EDMONTON just put up 100+ points in a little more than half a season.

 

Goalies took it on the chin this year, especially early on. Hart doesn't have the veteran experience of say a Saaros nor the defense of Nashville in front of him. Give him and the d a camp and if he's still in the doldrums THEN they've got problems.

 

I still question overall leadership here, from Dave "we DESERVE a good hockey team" Scott on down.

 

To me there is a clear sense of entitlement NOBODY on this organization* has ever come CLOSE to earning.

[pilldoc]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 This is the first "get rid of Patrick" post I've read on here that actually makes any sense to me. I still wouldn't trade him unless it was something of value (a 2nd or 3rd is NOT the value of Patrick if he gets going, which is what you're drafting for) but at least there's reasoning other than "He sucks, I don't care if his health was a huge factor and his entire team completely gave up, that's on him". 

 

 I don't know wtf is going on with the Flyers but some of the best young talent I've ever seen them have at one time is not developing. This isn't just Patrick. Hart looked like we FINALLY had the answer, then he completely regresses. Provorov who looked great and now looks mediocre. Konecny who looked great and now looks mediocre. Myers was really coming into his own. Now he's terrible.  Sanheim. Ghost (I know, injuries). Lindblom (same) NAK. I've never seen anything like it. All on the same team. 

 

 There should be a purge in this org. But I don't think it should be these talented young guys. 

Excellent post… but AGAIN… I go back to what is the common denominator through all this.  Many have argued against this, but I still go back to so called veteran core. Again we don’t know what goes on in the locker room, but for whatever reason there seems to be a real poison attitude wise. The lack of growth from the young players is proof positive that this or-gani-Zation does NOT know how to continuously let these young players grow once they hit the NHL level. It very well could be an organizational philosophy. Sadly there is still TOO much of the old Flyers way of thinking that is blocking this club.

 

we have exhausted just about every other idea.

 

This whole  club is moving forward, as @radoran put it, like a sedated sloth.

[pilldoc]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

Patrick clearly wasn't ready for the NHL when he was inked into the lineup on draft day...

i think many of us on here said the very same thing and we were shocked he made the club from the get go…..

[pilldoc]

14 minutes ago, radoran said:

To me there is a clear sense of entitlement NOBODY on this organization* has ever come CLOSE to earning.

^^^^ this!

 

so where does this notion originate? Again I say it goes back to the core.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I mean, look what the Panthers paid for Sam freaking Bennett -- another guy who really needed a change, though I don't think as much as Patrick does.

 

Exactly they got a 2nd and a 19 prospect to replace Bennett.

 

Surely you could get something like that at the deadline for the "2nd overall pick".....but i'm sure he wasn't even on the block.

 

Anyways i think i am done on this subject.

 

Patrick is here, will suck again i'm sure - they will let him walk, he will turn into a 30 goal scorer for the Jets and once his new contract expires the Flyers will bring him back on a 5 year deal where he will play sporadically again.....just like their other former 2nd round pick.

 

We're not allowed to have nice things see Buttman's memo...

 

 

 

Edited May 20, 2021 by OccamsRazor
just keep the bourbon flowing

[radoran]

40 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

^^^^ this!

 

so where does this notion originate? Again I say it goes back to the core.

 

I think when you have the Chairman of the organization* saying they "deserve" a playoff team that it goes higher than the core players. I think it is a top-down feeling that the organization* is an elite one in the league that it simply hasn't been for going on a decade.

 

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, pilldoc said:

i think many of us on here said the very same thing and we were shocked he made the club from the get go…..

 

It was because they needed a center and well there sat Patrick.

 

Such a poor decision by Ron and it may have cost Patrick his career in Philly at least.

 

So Nolan may end up being a Penguin scoring 30 goals a year for the next 8 years once he is shipped out.

[CoachX]

Assuming for a minute that the core is rotten, and there is serious locker room issues (which I believe to be true), if a young player gets caught up in that, to the point that he doesn't perform at his best, then he isn't worth it ti begin with.

 

Singling out my favorite, NAK, if his regression is due to negative influence from whatever veteran, then that says alot about his mental toughness and dedication.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I know it's easy to point at the scouts and just say "we overvalued" or "the picks are horrible."

 

Well brace yourself the chance for redemption is coming June 2nd.

 

 

1.8%

 

[radoran]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

if a young player gets caught up in that, to the point that he doesn't perform at his best, then he isn't worth it ti begin with.

 

I'll disagree on that to an extent. When you have a 19-year-old kid coming into a locker room of veterans who are sitting around saying how they really should be a playoff team if they didn't have bad bounces, or had more practice time, or that penalty didn't happen, that "playing 60 minutes" is a cliche, or, or and, or, but, or... And an executive suite that saying they "deserve" to be in the playoffs.

 

Add in a captain who had never been in the position and who's experience/influence at the NHL level was a guy who was "the next Bobby Clarke" until he was unceremoniously shipped out and a short dose of Chris Pronger (who has an attitude and bearing that Giroux has never and will never have); adding in a first time NHL coach and replacing him with a veteran coach who steered veteran teams to the Cup Finals.

 

That's not, to me, a healthy environment for anyone to "develop" in.

 

Especially with no camp and no practice time.

[ruxpin]

3 hours ago, CoachX said:

Singling out my favorite, NAK, if his regression is due to negative influence from whatever veteran, then that says alot about his mental toughness and dedication.

 

To an extent, yes.   But we often do as the group we are surrounded by.   

 

But really, "group personality" really is a thing.   You see it in other areas of life.   Whether a church group or a company branch/facility, etc., sometimes the group takes on a personality vastly different from that of the individuals who comprise it -- and completely independent of the members changing over time. 

 

A church, for example, can be made of decent people who operate completely differently even in other business functions but over time develop a reputation for being "minister eaters" (they just churn through minister after minister).  And the rotation of steering committee or trustees or whatever doesn't seem to alter that.  It's just the cultural personality of the group.

 

Similarly, I oversee several manufacturing facilities across several states.  Each has it's very own group personality, for better or for worse, regarding work ethic and stuff like "Johnny got a sticker and I didn't!" where other locations wouldn't care but have other group idiosyncrasies.  

 

And all this over "generations" of ever-changing group members.

 

It usually requires change at the power center and then takes time to trickle down...if then.

 

So, that's my previous harp about the Veegees, but I whole-heartedly agree with those who point higher into the front office and ownership.   This started off the rails with the Lindros thing but really didn't bite us until the return from the first lockout in 2005.   Yes, we went to the finals in 2010, but you could already see the issues with the group personality in Philly.  

 

Not saying that all this is hopeless.   The Chicago Black Hawks had similar and that changed and they won several Cups.   I don't believe the change in ownership was coincidental or happy circumstance.    It may legitimately take that...or at least a stronger insulation of the Flyers group from Comcast --and an exorcism of the leadership within that insulated sphere.   Yeah, so close to hopeless.

[radoran]

32 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

So, that's my previous harp about the Veegees, but I whole-heartedly agree with those who point higher into the front office and ownership. 

 

It's all the same vine, regardless of the fruit at this point...

 

32 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

Not saying that all this is hopeless.   The Chicago Black Hawks had similar and that changed and they won several Cups.

 

Well, it was also the whole #3 overall in 2006 being Toews and the #1 overall in 2007 being Kane.

 

The Blackhawks weren't muddling around trying the "make the playoff and anything can happen" roulette wheel. They legit sucked with one playoff round in 10 years and wound up with two solid pieces to build around.

 

37 minutes ago, ruxpin said:

I don't believe the change in ownership was coincidental or happy circumstance.

 

You mean Bill Wirtz up and dying? Yeah, not a happy occasion.

 

They had traded away Chelios, Roenick, and Belfour and bumbled along with Alexei Zhamnov and Tony Amonte (where have I heard those names before? ).

 

But while both Kane and Toews were drafted under Bill, there's no question that Rocky made better moves.

[mkscrewy]

5 hours ago, radoran said:

 

No camp, no practice time, and apparently guys who couldn't find any way to get off the couch and onto a rink. In Canada.

 

No, really.

 

I think the first two factors are real. I think the third shows a clear lack of discipline and desire. Other guys got time. Some guy in EDMONTON just put up 100+ points in a little more than half a season.

 

Goalies took it on the chin this year, especially early on. Hart doesn't have the veteran experience of say a Saaros nor the defense of Nashville in front of him. Give him and the d a camp and if he's still in the doldrums THEN they've got problems.

 

I still question overall leadership here, from Dave "we DESERVE a good hockey team" Scott on down.

 

To me there is a clear sense of entitlement NOBODY on this organization* has ever come CLOSE to earning.

unfortunately I see this really clearly in watching most teams in the playoffs right now. There is no way this year's team could hang with most of these teams in a 7-game 4-game series right now. We'd get smoked out the gate and maybe in the final minute there might be a scrum to show some sign of life that wouldn't carry over into the next period, let alone the next game. The lack of intensity and competitiveness by our 2021 team is really glaring by comparison to the likes of say, the Colorado Avalanche and even the Florida Panthers who are down 0-2 in their series. "How the hell do you fix that?" is a topic for another thread.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, mkscrewy said:

We'd get smoked out the gate and maybe in the final minute there might be a scrum to show some sign of life that wouldn't carry over into the next period, let alone the next game.

 

That was last year, too. Winning three overtime games against the Isles and scoring three goals in the other four - including shutouts in Game 1 and Game 7.

 

This group has been talking about needing consistency for years and it just never seems to come together for them.
 

There is a point at which it's just not going to happen. For me, we've reached that point.

 

4 minutes ago, mkscrewy said:

The lack of intensity and competitiveness by our 2021 team is really glaring by comparison to the likes of say, the Colorado Avalanche and even the Florida Panthers who are down 0-2 in their series.

 

Or even the Buffalo freaking Sabres who were devastated by COVID, lost their captain, traded away their prize UFA signing, fired the coach and were at least playing competitive, determined hockey at the end of the season. Including smoking the Flyers during their "playoff hunt" days.

 

Then you have the Flyers jumping all over a Pens team in a classic "trap" game for Pittsburgh and then getting blown out after poking the bear the next night.

 

3 minutes ago, mkscrewy said:

"How the hell do you fix that?" is a topic for another thread.

 

Indeed, it is

[CoachX]

1 hour ago, ruxpin said:

But really, "group personality" really is a thing

of course it is....

 

prior to joining this forum I was much nicer

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

For me, we've reached that point.

 

I'm right there with you. But i will say if they can remove JVR say by the expansion draft.

 

And possibly pick up 2 mill of Jake's salary per year remaining in a trade for _____________ i would call that a success.

 

Then going into 2021-22 you may have the option of moving Giroux before the deadline for ___________ or resigning him to a 2 year deal (3 tops) team friendly deal another step forward.

 

I would take that as positive progress along the lines of the rebuild and then after next year Hayes NMC shift to a NTC to 12 teams he is allowed to exclude...well maybe they are getting there by then if you can find a taker after 2022-23 if you slog it out one more year only 3 years (7.1 m per)left to trade maybe.

 

But in the meantime when this is taking place you would have to contemplate resigning Coots as possibly replace Giroux as Captain (my choice) or moving him too for a nice haul.

 

So by 2022-23 this team could look way different. Ok what say you ( as i put down my bottle of High Cotton bourbon) is this feasible or am i drunk??

[CoachX]

8 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

So by 2022-23 this team could look way different. Ok what say you ( as i put down my bottle of High Cotton bourbon) is this feasible or am i drunk??

WAIT! .... some of your posts, you're sober?

 

$hit in my hat, this changes things

[OccamsRazor]

1 minute ago, CoachX said:

some of your posts, you're sober?

 

You can't prove that.  

[OccamsRazor]

Rumor has it that the Blue Jackets are looking for a #1 center.....

[Digityman]

9 hours ago, ruxpin said:

I hate buying high and selling low.  It's a horrible practice in any business.  My thought is this isn't selling low vs selling high.  It's low vs. lower, IMO.

 

If this is the stock market last March, if you sold while it was crashing you missed out on a lot of money 6 months later. 

 

Sometimes it's better to just sit back and let things happen while keeping a watchful eye because things that once were (there's a reason he was considered the #2 pick by many people) can once again come back.  I'm not saying he will, but giving him a full off-season, training camp...and 30-40 games.  Then, if he still shows he's a -30 player, get what you can for him or simply walk away.