Choice of two defenseman… Jones or Hamilton, who do we want?

[RonJeremy]

Since the Flyers are looking for a right handed veteran defenseman ,we might be able to sign Hamilton and not give up any assets or we can trade for Jones ,which would cost us alot. You have to figure they would want Sanheim, Konecny and a first round pick, maybe more. There will be multiple teams bidding which would drive up the price. Jones style is probably closer to what we want since he is more physical  and better defensively , but the cost will be much higher. Although I lean more to Jones , I really don’t want to weaken the team by losing Sanheim and Konecny. With other teams bidding we are not going to be able to lowball Columbus. York can probably replace Sanheim, but there is no  immediate replacement for Konecny , but I think Allison is going to be a big scorer for us and I like his physical net front style and scoring touch. I wouldn’t want to give up Allison , Foerester or Wisdom either. If Hayes is not ready nor ineffective due to core surgery we could move Konecny to center since he was a center in juniors. So maybe we shoot for Hamilton unless there is a right handed vet available for trade who is very good defensively but not as costly as Jones.

[CoachX]

When giving up a high draft pick (1st rounder), i always look  at who you are getting. If you cant draft a guy with that pick that is bettwr than the guy you are getting, then the pick isnt more valuable

 

Sanheim? TK? What are they after this season? Who knows. Tk has been in decline since making the all-star team. Thats concerning. Sanheim had some struggles last season, then bombed this season. 

 

Im reading people here saying York is a future Norris candidate. Ive heard that about provy too. Is Jones also? If so, a team with those three on defense would be impressive.

 

This team needs major moves and huge shake up. I'd like to see then make this move

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

If you cant draft a guy with that pick that is better than the guy you are getting, then the pick isnt more valuable

 

This is possible to draft a guy better than the one you are acquiring....however you must be willing to wait 4-5 years to know. Are you willing to wait??

 

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Im reading people here saying York is a future Norris candidate.

 

Only time i have seen such a post was from @mojo1917 and i am sure he meant it was in jest.

 

However he could be right at this point none of us can truly say he is wrong but time will tell.

 

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

Ive heard that about provy too.

 

He has shown flashes of this....just see the season he put up 17 goals. No reason to believe he can't return to that form with a solid partner and better over all team around him. Kid is very good.

 

2 hours ago, CoachX said:

This team needs major moves and huge shake up.

 

This is true. There are some very good pieces to build around on the roster. With the right plan Chuckles can turn this around quickly i feel. No one has to agree with me i'm fine with that.

 

 

[CoachX]

4 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

No one has to agree with me i'm fine with that

Whew! Dodged a bullet there 

[CoachX]

11 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Only time i have seen such a post was from @mojo1917 and i am sure he meant it was in jest.

 

However he could be right at this point none of us can truly say he is wrong but time will tell

So, would you be ok with York full time in the event Sanheim was traded, or would you consider that a huge mistake?

[OccamsRazor]

Just now, CoachX said:

So, would you be ok with York full time in the event Sanheim was traded, or would you consider that a huge mistake?

 

Yes no offense to Travis but in the short little glimpse of York i seen so much of what i had been waiting years to see from Travis....i know i shouldn't judge on such a short stretch of games (and a lot i also am going by him when he Captained the US to the win in World Juniors too...the kid seems to have it).

 

So yes i think York can provide what Sanheim has given and more.

 

TS has always been to timid and indecisive for my liking and i have said it here many times.

 

In fact you could flip both Charmin twins (Sanheim and Myers)for pieces needed elsewhere maybe even or in a package to retool the team.

 

Just to be creative two packages to do quickly Sanheim (more needed) in one for Jones and Myers (more needed) in another for Klingberg....that would be a very very good upgrade....now cue the Flyer faithful whiners who will read this like i am saying you can trade them just straight up.

 

Just an example if you want to get creative but it can be done if you want to be bold.

 

Provorov - Jones

York - Klingberg

Morin - Braun

Hagg

 

Quick turn around. Would it work???

[mojo1917]

10 minutes ago, CoachX said:

So, would you be ok with York full time in the event Sanheim was traded, or would you consider that a huge mistake?

Hmmm, i think they are different players style wise.

I think York, is more of an all around always on the ice guy, like Provorov or Scott Neidermayer 

I see Sanheim as a Dougie Hamilton type guy, more comfortable pushing the pace and playing in the offensive zone but still competent in his own end.

I do think i would be fine with York in a larger role, i think we would all hate watching Sanhiem mature somewhere else.

Plus i have a great @mkscrewy Sanner t shirt so that would be sad for no one to "get it". 

[CoachX]

Assuming York is a replacement for Sanhiem, a trade that involves TS, TK and the pick,  really only becomes TK and the pick for Jones

Edited June 2, 2021 by CoachX

[flyercanuck]

11 hours ago, CoachX said:

When giving up a high draft pick (1st rounder), i always look  at who you are getting. If you cant draft a guy with that pick that is bettwr than the guy you are getting, then the pick isnt more valuable

 

 It depends on the draft year. We all know how Patrick looks right now as the 2nd overall or how Patrice Bergeron looks as a 2nd rounder. You don't know.

 

Quote

 

Sanheim? TK? What are they after this season? Who knows. Tk has been in decline since making the all-star team. Thats concerning. Sanheim had some struggles last season, then bombed this season. 

 

Im reading people here saying York is a future Norris candidate. Ive heard that about provy too. Is Jones also? If so, a team with those three on defense would be impressive.

 

 So Sanheim and TK are in decline but Jones isn't? The grass is always greener in Philly. 

 

 York is a future Norris? Ya, so was Ghost. And Provorov. And Myers. And Sanheim.

 

Quote

 

This team needs major moves and huge shake up. I'd like to see then make this move

 

 I can see it blowing up in our faces. I'd rather keep TK, Sanheim and the 1st and sign a UFA.

Edited June 2, 2021 by flyercanuck

[tucson83]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 It depends on the draft year. We all know how Patrick looks right now as the 2nd overall or how Patrice Bergeron looks as a 2nd rounder. You don't know.

 

 

 So Sanheim and TK are in decline but Jones isn't? The grass is always greener in Philly. 

 

 York is a future Norris? Ya, so was Ghost. And Provorov. And Myers. And Sanheim.

 

 

 I can see it blowing up in our faces. I'd rather keep TK, Sanheim and the 1st and sign a UFA.

 

is winning a cup not a priority anymore and it's all about players that you hope they become something? because why you are afraid they are going to win cups someplace else, who cares. the fact is this team is not very good, we need defense around hart and not bring back the same players that might choke around him again like what goalie would want to play behind this d?

 

it shouldn't matter who goes moved, it's about this team winning that's it. if it's about the players then you really have lost your winning mentality.

[CoachX]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 It depends on the draft year. We all know how Patrick looks right now as the 2nd overall or how Patrice Bergeron looks as a 2nd rounder. You don't know.

 

 

 So Sanheim and TK are in decline but Jones isn't? The grass is always greener in Philly. 

 

 York is a future Norris? Ya, so was Ghost. And Provorov. And Myers. And Sanheim.

 

 

 I can see it blowing up in our faces. I'd rather keep TK, Sanheim and the 1st and sign a UFA.

Your post reflects exactly how i feel about this situation

 

Your point about Jones being in decline is something im scratching my head about. Someone here suggested he was. Seems to me that every guy on D we want is in decline, but all the guys we would give up havent matured yet so we should keep them. 

 

Maybe the grass is always greener because its rolled in paper

[mojo1917]

22 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Your point about Jones being in decline is something im scratching my head about. Someone here suggested he was

I brought this up in another thread.

The measurable data seems to point to a decrease in Jones' effectiveness. Flyers Twitter in particular hates the idea of a Jones to the Flyers trade

I am dubious of this, the guy is still under 26, played on a not good team that had literally quit listening to their coach.

Of course his stats aren't going to be great.

I brought that up to see if there were any reasoned takes as to why Jones wouldn't fit or be worth trading and signing .

Whenever I see statistics being used as the holy grail, I remember the Subban for Weber trade. Statistically Subban was the superior player and many thought the best player in the deal. Subban is on a different team now and Weber is still with the Habs, leading them in ice time in the playoffs where they remain a threat to advance.  There is more to playing that position than just stats Weber has some intangibles that Subban does not. Subban is still a decent hockey player and I think he's a good bloke. My idea of Jones is that he's more of a Weber type player than a Subban type.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, tucson83 said:

 

is winning a cup not a priority anymore and it's all about players that you hope they become something? because why you are afraid they are going to win cups someplace else, who cares. the fact is this team is not very good, we need defense around hart and not bring back the same players that might choke around him again like what goalie would want to play behind this d?

 

it shouldn't matter who goes moved, it's about this team winning that's it. if it's about the players then you really have lost your winning mentality.

 

My point is TK and Sanheim both had off years...BUT SO DID JONES!  If Jones played for Philly and Sanheim and Konecny played for Columbus, some guys would want to trade the other way. Konecny was our top scorer ONE YEAR AGO. If those guys have lost their winning mentality, what has Jones done? 

[CoachX]

4 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

My point is TK and Sanheim both had off years...BUT SO DID JONES!  If Jones played for Philly and Sanheim and Konecny played for Columbus, some guys would want to trade the other way. Konecny was our top scorer ONE YEAR AGO. If those guys have lost their winning mentality, what has Jones done? 

The problem here is WE can attribute the Flyer dynamic to TK and TS. We all watched and have a fan's view of what the reason was/were (for what its worth). With Jones, unless any of us watched Columbus all year, we can only read and speculate.

 

So, let's assume all three bounce back and have their "typical" year. Who is more valuable?

[CoachX]

54 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

My idea of Jones is that he's more of a Weber type player than a Subban type.

My idea of Jones is that he is typically ranked in the top 20 for NHL defenseman. No Flyer is that good. Will Sanhiem get that good? I don't think so. Will TK be a legit 30 goal guy? I don't know, but I think he would have to be to be equal to a number one defenseman

[flyercanuck]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

The problem here is WE can attribute the Flyer dynamic to TK and TS. We all watched and have a fan's view of what the reason was/were (for what its worth). With Jones, unless any of us watched Columbus all year, we can only read and speculate.

 

So, let's assume all three bounce back and have their "typical" year. Who is more valuable?

 

I guess it depends on what your needs are. Remember Konecny was our top scorer. Jones may have the most value of the three, but Sanheim and Konecny may combined. 

[mojo1917]

@CoachX

Making that assumption, I think Jones is the best player of the 3.

I like both Sanheim and TK a lot.

I don't think we have seen Sanheim's ceiling. I don't think defensmen are done developing at 24/5. His ceiling is probably not quite as good as Jones.

Jones has already been to the mountain top as a true #1 stud 25 minute a night guy. 

 

It also seems like you're getting to the point that TK and Sanheim are too much going out the door in the deal.

Is that accurate?

Edited June 2, 2021 by mojo1917

[flyercanuck]

2 hours ago, tucson83 said:

 

is winning a cup not a priority anymore and it's all about players that you hope they become something? because why you are afraid they are going to win cups someplace else, who cares. the fact is this team is not very good, we need defense around hart and not bring back the same players that might choke around him again like what goalie would want to play behind this d?

 

it shouldn't matter who goes moved, it's about this team winning that's it. if it's about the players then you really have lost your winning mentality.

 

 And to reiterate...if winning the cup is the priority (it is) how many does Jones have in his career? His teams have missed the playoffs 4 times(2 in trade season), out in the first 3 times and out in the second twice. Doesn't sound like he's any more of a winner than our guys to be honest...if that's what we're going by.

Edited June 2, 2021 by flyercanuck

[CoachX]

8 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

I guess it depends on what your needs are. Remember Konecny was our top scorer. Jones may have the most value of the three, but Sanheim and Konecny may combined. 

TK was the top scorer, and Laughton was the top scorer in the playoffs. But someone has to be at the top. And leading a team with 24 goals and 61 pts, isn't a huge feat. Its almost like he lead by attrition. Giroux, Voracek, Coots, all had down years in stats. And since the All Star break, TK has been a shadow of what he was. I don't think he is player who be the leading scorer on the Flyers, or any other team, year in and year out

 

[CoachX]

5 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

And to reiterate...if winning the cup is the priority (it is) how many does Jones have in his career?

How many do any current Flyer players have?

[OccamsRazor]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

My idea of Jones is that he's more of a Weber type player than a Subban type.

 

And this is how you solve the riddle....will Sanheim or Myers ever be a Weber?? Or a Subban??

 

And if lading a Jones who can achor your top pair for the next 7 or 8 years is worth it??

 

Because at the end of the day Jones will be had through a bidding war.

 

You would have to Jarmo would have to get a substantial return in order for him to trade him to a team he will have to face every year.

 

What if you just target another D man all together...try and take advantage of the Blues upcoming cap issues...they need to resign Schwartz, Bozak, Hoffman and Barbashev and forward and also need a better backup goalie.

 

Offer something like Myers and a pick for Parayko and then sign Savard to pair with Sanheim??

 

Savard hasn't even played vs Carolina yet not even in the lineup he may not be real costly.

 

Just brainstorming before while enjoying my coffee but i like that blueline.

 

Provorov - Parayko

Sanheim - Savard

Morin - Braun

Hagg

 

Or even you want to take advantage of another teams cap situation next year the Bolts are already 5 million over the cap next season with only 19 players signed.

 

So offer them Myers for Erik Cernak i know only 400K cheaper over the next 3 years but every bit counts.

 

Provorov (24) - Cernak (24)

Sanheim (25)- Savard (30)

Morin (25)- Braun (34)

Hagg (26)

 

Me like this even better.

 

And York and Zamula waiting to push someone hopefully Braun out the lineup.

 

Ok i'm done many different ways to rebuild this team.

 

 

[tucson83]

2 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

And this is how you solve the riddle....will Sanheim or Myers ever be a Weber?? Or a Subban??

 

And if lading a Jones who can achor your top pair for the next 7 or 8 years is worth it??

 

Because at the end of the day Jones will be had through a bidding war.

 

You would have to Jarmo would have to get a substantial return in order for him to trade him to a team he will have to face every year.

 

What if you just target another D man all together...try and take advantage of the Blues upcoming cap issues...they need to resign Schwartz, Bozak, Hoffman and Barbashev and forward and also need a better backup goalie.

 

Offer something like Myers and a pick for Parayko and then sign Savard to pair with Sanheim??

 

Savard hasn't even played vs Carolina yet not even in the lineup he may not be real costly.

 

Just brainstorming before while enjoying my coffee but i like that blueline.

 

Provorov - Parayko

Sanheim - Savard

Morin - Braun

Hagg

 

Or even you want to take advantage of another teams cap situation next year the Bolts are already 5 million over the cap next season with only 19 players signed.

 

So offer them Myers for Erik Cernak i know only 400K cheaper over the next 3 years but every bit counts.

 

Provorov (24) - Cernak (24)

Sanheim (25)- Savard (30)

Morin (25)- Braun (34)

Hagg (26)

 

Me like this even better.

 

And York and Zamula waiting to push someone hopefully Braun out the lineup.

 

Ok i'm done many different ways to rebuild this team.

 

 

 

this is how the eagles won the superbowl because they brought in players from great teams which turned that culture into a championship team, the flyers need those same ingredients. it's not just about talent, it's about talent and culture.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, tucson83 said:

 

this is how the eagles won the superbowl because they brought in players from great teams which turned that culture into a championship team, the flyers need those same ingredients. it's not just about talent, it's about talent and culture.

 

Yes offseason priority #1 should be a right hand shot for the top pair.

 

If this isn't the priority for Chuckles then they already have the wrong guy for the job.

[RonJeremy]

18 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Yes no offense to Travis but in the short little glimpse of York i seen so much of what i had been waiting years to see from Travis....i know i shouldn't judge on such a short stretch of games (and a lot i also am going by him when he Captained the US to the win in World Juniors too...the kid seems to have it).

 

So yes i think York can provide what Sanheim has given and more.

 

TS has always been to timid and indecisive for my liking and i have said it here many times.

 

In fact you could flip both Charmin twins (Sanheim and Myers)for pieces needed elsewhere maybe even or in a package to retool the team.

 

Just to be creative two packages to do quickly Sanheim (more needed) in one for Jones and Myers (more needed) in another for Klingberg....that would be a very very good upgrade....now cue the Flyer faithful whiners who will read this like i am saying you can trade them just straight up.

 

Just an example if you want to get creative but it can be done if you want to be bold.

 

Provorov - Jones

York - Klingberg

Morin - Braun

Hagg

 

Quick turn around. Would it work???

York hit the gym last summer and is looking jacked.  He is not a big guy but ,he is looking very toned and fit. I am sure the added strength is helping his game. Sanheim was dwarf tossed by Gerbe in a fight. Sanheim has skill but he really needs to gain some strength,  I don't know what he is waiting for. If we have to trade a dman , I prefer to keep Meyers and York over Sanheim. 

[RonJeremy]

9 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 It depends on the draft year. We all know how Patrick looks right now as the 2nd overall or how Patrice Bergeron looks as a 2nd rounder. You don't know.

 

 

 So Sanheim and TK are in decline but Jones isn't? The grass is always greener in Philly. 

 

 York is a future Norris? Ya, so was Ghost. And Provorov. And Myers. And Sanheim.

 

 

 I can see it blowing up in our faces. I'd rather keep TK, Sanheim and the 1st and sign a UFA.

We all have to realize last season the whole team was a horror, except for 3 players. So I don't think our guys are decline,  it was more of a setback. One good veteran on the defense will jump everyone's game up significantly.  Some added grit/scoring  up front from Allison will also be a big help on the PP and York will also improve things for us. If we can sign a good UFA  dman and keep our assets for the team or to trade  to improve other areas, that would be the best scenario.