Giroux Trade Talk

[radoran]

15 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Unless you have a better player on the block than Giroux who you know of and offering??

 

The article linked above mentioned Pavelski.

 

In the end, It comes down to cap space and assets.

 

Sakic gave up this years #1 for Kemper and LY and this year's #2 for Toews. He *has* made moves to put them into the position they already ARE in...

[mojo1917]

1 minute ago, CoachX said:

Mojo relayed something he heard where Frost was an impacting reason they fired AV

where did I say this ?

I said the reason Frost is being yo-yo'd between LHV and PHI is because AV saw him as one type of player, Yeo sees him as another. The front office seems to share Yeo's vision too. 

I didn't say AV was fired.

Nor did I link Frost to being a reason for that action.

[CoachX]

2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

can you expand on this a little ?

Giving the player direction and the opportunity to improve doesn't seem fcked in the head to me.

It seems like trying to get the most from an asset.

 

 I'm curious as to why you think this. 

The way i read your post, the firing of AV was largely connected to what was going on with Frost. If that true, i find it absolutely absurd. You don't fire one of the winningest coaches in the NHL because of how an AHL prospect is being handled. Im all for direction and opportunity, but it sounds to me like the guy isn't making the best of his opportunities and can't even crack the lineup. Coddling players and acquiescing to their needs has been a thorn in the side of this franchise, going all the way back to Lindros

[radoran]

20 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

But if i am GM i'm holding onto him until i see all that could be on the table for him.

 

The Avs have the same amount of trips to their conference finals as the Flyers in the last decade so it isn't like they have much leverage in this either if Chuckles plays this right.

 

Yes, get the best deal for Giroux.

 

The Avs are the top team in the league right now and poised to be there for the next 3-5 years even if they do nothing at this deadline. That's more leverage than anyone needs. Joe Sakic isn't sitting there thinking about how he can get Giroux "his Cup." He's thinking about the team he's built into the top team in the league.

 

The difference between where they are after the past decade and where the Flyers are could not be more different nor more striking.

[mojo1917]

Just now, CoachX said:

The way i read your post, the firing of AV was largely connected to what was going on with Frost. If that true, i find it absolutely absurd. You don't fire one of the winningest coaches in the NHL because of how an AHL prospect is being handled. Im all for direction and opportunity, but it sounds to me like the guy isn't making the best of his opportunities and can't even crack the lineup. Coddling players and acquiescing to their needs has been a thorn in the side of this franchise, going all the way back to Lindros

I didn't intend to pass that meaning at all.

That is not what I heard.

I must need to go back to writin' school or somethin' 

[CoachX]

3 hours ago, mojo1917 said:

DiFillipo and DiMarco were saying the coaching change has as much to do with Frost's yo-yo-ing as anything.

@mojo1917

 

I was referring to this post. You didnt say it, you said you heard someone else say it. You didn't say "AV was fired", you said someone said, "the coaching change has as much to do with Frost's yo-yo-ing as anything". Since AV was fired, and that did constitute a "coaching change", (the only one I'm aware of), I thought this was what that statement meant

[mojo1917]

4 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

Yes, get the best deal for Giroux.

 

The Avs are the top team in the league right now and poised to be there for the next 3-5 years even if they do nothing at this deadline. That's more leverage than anyone needs. Joe Sakic isn't sitting there thinking about how he can get Giroux "his Cup." He's thinking about the team he's built into the top team in the league.

 

The difference between where they are after the past decade and where the Flyers are could not be more different nor more striking.

Sakic was permitted to see his plan through, Hextall couldn't keep his pie hole shut long enough to let a dilatant walk out the door.

I remember the howling when he took MacKinnon over Jones- seems like a great move now. 

He had better luck too, in that the years his team was terrible there were franchise changing players available. 

All things considered, Joe has been a great hire and has been masterful. 

 

I don't think G to the Avs is a good fit for either team. 

 

[mojo1917]

@CoachX

yeah, that's some bad writing on my part. apologies.

[OccamsRazor]

2 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

 His coffin is already full of nails. 

 

I know but there is always a last nail i am talking about that very one........

 

[CoachX]

3 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I don't think G to the Avs is a good fit for either team

you don't think this would be good for the Flyers?

Edited February 15, 2022 by CoachX

[flyer4ever]

Cam Atkinson is a better comparable to Tyler Toffoli. He should also be moved if that is the market value. (Or not).

[mojo1917]

Just now, CoachX said:

you don't think would be good for the Flyers?

I don't know what assets they have and would be willing to part with that fill the need of an impact center.

Newhook sure, but, is he available? Jost? eh, and they don't have a first pick this year. 

I think the result of trading with Colorado would be similar to the Charles Barkley to PHX trade-which brought back the original pu-pu platter of stiffs.

 

I feel strongly if Giroux is to be traded, the return needs to address the glaring need for an impact centerman. The Flyers have 6 bottom 6 pivots, and no one that can "get their own shot". 

just my $.02

 

[OccamsRazor]

20 minutes ago, radoran said:

The article linked above mentioned Pavelski.

 

Great option B and they are less attached to the former Shark.

 

And if it goes well enough would be a cheap resign i am sure.

 

Yes before i part with Newhook i certainly think about this one.

[flyer4ever]

If, and it's a big if, Chuck does include Frost and gets Newhook in the return, and the Flyers deem Ellis and Couturier as untouchables going forward, then you will merely be ruining Newhooks career.  I have zero faith in Chuck to right this ship, when he has to answer total idiots like Scott and Homer. 

[OccamsRazor]

22 minutes ago, radoran said:

#2 for Toews.

 

Amazing trade i think.

[CoachX]

Someone explain to me why this Frost kid is so valuable? 

 

If he's that good, why can't he crack the line up? 

 

Could it be he's just the next, in a long line of overhyped prospects, the Flyer fans gush over without him ever panning out

[mojo1917]

Here is a link to the podcast I just listened to.

Snow the Goalie: A Flyers Podcast - White Flag Waved (google.com)

 

DiMarco and Difillippo talk about the bolstering of the front office and analytics department. 

They also seem to give Daniel Briere some credit for not being a dumbass and then in the next sentence say that DB has put his trust in the "Nature boy" Flahr and Fletcher. 

I don't know that I can walk the path of telling myself idiots are in charge and feel like I'm telling myself the truth.

 

That Minnesota team is playing pretty well with Chuck's players and there seem to be a lot of them to choose from.

Now, Is CF a guy to take a team over the top ? that remains to be seen. But the narrative that he's an imbecile who doesn't know his ass from elbow is patently false. 

He built good teams In Minnesota, his moves here addressed team needs. 

I don't get the impression he thinks everything is "fine" based up what he has done/is doing and has said.

Edited February 15, 2022 by mojo1917

[OccamsRazor]

15 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

Newhook sure, but, is he available? Jost? eh, and they don't have a first pick this year. 

 

 

I heard the name Sampo Ranta thrown out a Finn with good size and skill if you believe some of the reports....otherwise i don't know much about him i would need to do some research on. 

[OccamsRazor]

16 minutes ago, flyer4ever said:

Ellis and Couturier as untouchables going forward, then you will merely be ruining Newhooks career.

 

Please explain why this is???

[mojo1917]

6 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Someone explain to me why this Frost kid is so valuable? 

 

If he's that good, why can't he crack the line up? 

 

Could it be he's just the next, in a long line of overhyped prospects, the Flyer fans gush over without him ever panning out

I think he is immature. 

 

He has a lot of shimmy and great hands. 

I don't think there is anything wrong with being patient with him.

I also think unless a centerman comes back in a deal he's included in the organization isn't doing itself any favors. He's our #1 guy at that position.

That's, uh, not great. 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

9 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Someone explain to me why this Frost kid is so valuable? 

 

 

From projections and "potential"....just for example trading Patrick Sharp before letting him get comfortable playing with grown men...kid has skill but all i can say is i haven't seen him very much to make a call on because the Flyers have been unbearable.

 

But if they like Newhook then good for them....and Frost is still linked to the Schenn trade so some will have to have a say from that alone.

 

I just want them to get the best deal they can this is a pivotal moment. What happens before the deadline could be huge for the offseason ahead.

 

I can not take another year this bad but it is certainly looming. I'm scared they are going to push all the chips to the center of the table...

[radoran]

16 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Amazing trade i think.

 

It was 2 2s - but better than a 1st, 2 2nds, a 7th and two roster players for... oh... nevermind...

 

Sakic has been building a team over time. The Flyers have been "retooling" and "doing things like we've always done them."

[radoran]

11 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

But the narrative that he's an imbecile who doesn't know his ass from elbow is patently false. 

He built good teams In Minnesota, his moves here addressed team needs. 

 

He did OK, yes. I think the ass/elbow thing is Parise/Suter (and the obsession with Minnesota players) and people will debate Leopold/Fletch on that move forever.

 

If nothing else, they stopped Homer from making that egregious mistake...

 

I do think - and I say this from my chair - he relied too much on Koivu. Koivu shoulda been a 2C, instead of trying to push him into the 1.

 

Hmmm...

[BobbyClarkeFan16]

3 minutes ago, CoachX said:

Someone explain to me why this Frost kid is so valuable? 

 

If he's that good, why can't he crack the line up? 

 

Could it be he's just the next, in a long line of overhyped prospects, the Flyer fans gush over without him ever panning out

I'm going to answer this.

 

Frost has a skill set that no other Flyers player has. He has speed in spades, he sees the ice well and he has incredible hands. Not only that, he's been a plus player in both junior and the AHL in terms of his play at 5 on 5, PP and PK. 

 

The issue, and it's always been an issue, is that the Flyers try to fit him into a role that he doesn't fit. He's not a checking forward and he never will be. Instead, there's this stupid development path in Philadelphia that all prospects have to go through this bottom six garbage in order to succeed. It goes right back to Gagne. He played on a checking line the first five seasons of his career before being elevated. They wasted five God damn years of his career. They did the same with Carter and Richards. They did the same with Giroux. They did the same with Couturier. It just goes on and on with regards to the misuse of players.

 

Here's something else. Look at the number of players that have been moved away who have found success elsewhere. I can think of Williams, Sharpe, Siedenburg, and now Gostisbehere. There is something fundamentally flawed in the development process in Philadelphia. Just look at the number of young players that have not just stagnated, but have digressed. Provorov, Konecny, Lindblom, Sanheim. Just examples of how this franchise just chews up and spits out young players. These are players with high pedigrees and all of a sudden, they don't know how to play? No, I don't buy that for one second. 

 

The development process has been flawed for years. Literally, it's been throw **** at a wall and see what sticks. Not only that, rather than embrace the skills that these guys have, they coach it out of them so that they can play this stupid style of hockey that takes no brains or skill. It's garbage systemic hockey that is "play within the confines of the system and if you can't you don't have a spot here." Here's a question - how do you think a guy like MacKinnon or McDavid or Eichel would do here? I'll tell you - they'd have the life sucked out of them because it would be "forecheck, forecheck, forecheck" and "dump and chase, dump and chase, dump and chase." And that sums up the Flyers best - skill and scoring takes a backseat to the system.

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

5 minutes ago, radoran said:

Sakic has been building a team over time.

 

Yes didn't realize they haven't been to a conference finals in over twenty years. Wow. Not sure how that eluded me i was thinking they had but nope bounced second round three straight so yeah a big move would seem to get them over the hump or at least to the finals.

 

But as we know you get there and all you win is a date with i think either Bolts, Panthers or Canes i'm think so very skilled teams with speed and everything to expose maybe their crease.

 

Unless...