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The Case Against A Trade


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Thank you. Appreciate the sanity. Points well taken.

Anything that Holmgren does for the rest of this season, as far as player movement, could be his un-doing. How is that you say? This Flyers team has the most promise and the most solid nucleus of any Flyers team in Flyers histrory. Change the chemistry, you may blow it. That would be Holmgrens legacy. Not good for Paul.

So my advice. Flyer fans shut-up. Get some patience. This is not our year. Wait until next year. This is a work in progress. Enjoy watching it come together.

This applies to you too Ed Snider.

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Instead of "waiting till next year" why not sell some parts? Like Kimmo or Carle to a contender?

Because the Flyers ARE a contender. They currently have the 2nd most points in the Eastern Conference, you can't be much more of a contender than that. Even if it's not "their year", the playoff experience will be invaluable for young guys like Read, Voracek, Couturier, Schenn, etc... Timonen and Carle are two of the team's leaders in TOI, they rely on those guys a lot. Trade one of them and the chances of making the playoffs diminish significantly. If you're this close, and I do think the Flyers are close, there's no point in taking a step backwards.

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They currently have the 2nd most points in the Eastern Conference, you can't be much more of a contender than that.

it's a weird thing. i don't know if it happens in other sports, too, but every season hockey fans become adamant they can predict playoff success and failure by the halfway mark. and then the playoffs actually come along, with their annual display of top seed chokes, president's trophy winners getting bounced in the first round, unreasonably hot goalies, superstar disappearing acts, piled up injured lists, cinderella stories, 8 seeds making it to conf finals...and then it all gets washed away again by the following winter and we're back to the playoffs being decided by straight arithmetic.

one of things years of watching NHL playoffs has taught me is that the conf finals will be anything but boston/NYR and vancouver/detroit.

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one of things years of watching NHL playoffs has taught me is that the conf finals will be anything but boston/NYR and vancouver/detroit.

Its really hard for me to imagine anyone other than those 2 in the east (just because they both seem so defensively sound) but I get what you are saying and it would surprise the heck out of me to see the top 2 seeds in each conference in the conference finals. There's always a surprise team, but that team usually has a hot goaltender and it doesn't look as if that will be our team.

I can see Chicago/Pittsburgh/Philly surprising people, but I don't think the Flyers have the goaltending to beat Boston/New York

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Even though Carle says he wants to stay with the Flyers, I believe that he has to go with the market value of defensemen of his caliber (overpaid of course.) And, with Bryz's contract and the uncertainty of Pronger, it would be in the best interest of the Flyers to trade Carle for some young assets. I really don't think the Flyers will be able to afford what Carle will demand on the free-agent market. Stock up for next year!!

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After watching this afternoon's game, I say we need to do whatever it takes it shore up our defense. If we don't try to do something now by this trade deadline, it's going to be years before anyone in this organization is ready to step up. Actually, I don't think we have anyone who can. If we don't do it now, then it's got to be done this summer. We need defense. I'm pretty happy with the rookies on offense, we're pretty deep there and they'll come along. But please please please do something about the defense. I'm tired of watching afternoon games like this. I'd say do something about the goaltending too, but supposedly we already have and I've just given up on that entirely.

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Even though Carle says he wants to stay with the Flyers, I believe that he has to go with the market value of defensemen of his caliber (overpaid of course.) And, with Bryz's contract and the uncertainty of Pronger, it would be in the best interest of the Flyers to trade Carle for some young assets. I really don't think the Flyers will be able to afford what Carle will demand on the free-agent market. Stock up for next year!!

Move Carle. Move JVR. Shop Colburn. Start to re-load. Get 1|2 pairing for next 5 years. Kimmo will be a 3|4 by next year. This team not going anywhere this year.

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Even though Carle says he wants to stay with the Flyers, I believe that he has to go with the market value of defensemen of his caliber (overpaid of course.)

If he gets anything more than he already gets to me would be overpaying. I haven't found myself feeling as though he's a player I'm dying to hold on to and on a team where the D has been a hot topic, I think that says something.

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I guess I'm as close to being a Carle-apologist as you can be, and even I can see he hasn't done himself any favors this year - as far as increasing his value. He's had an up n down year by any measure, defensively I mean. He is certainly the whipping boy as you said, and fans love to dramatize his mistakes and overlook his contributions. But he has made more than his share of turnovers this year.

If he still wants to play in Philly and is willing to sign for a reasonable raise I would like to keep him. If he hopes to score $5.5 or $6 million per then we should let him walk - or better yet (much better yet) trade him. I don't know how much of a "read" Paul is getting from Carle's agent these days but I hope he's not dreaming of $5.5 mil/year...

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@canoli

i have to agree. i've spent as much time defending carle as anyone, but the truth is i've started to sour on him this season. at some point, the rookie mistakes have to stop. i'm willing to forgive coverage issues a little, he isn't and shouldn't be expected to be a shutdown guy...but the bad passing/puck carrying in the defensive zone are starting to be unforgivable. the most one-way of offensive defensemen can learn about safe outlets. the number of passes right up the gut that get cut off at the blueline with carle as the only guy back, those just can't happen.

i'm good with keeping him, even a *slight* raise, but he has done nothing to raise his value much beyond that. more than $4.5mil shouldn't happen.

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@canoli

i have to agree. i've spent as much time defending carle as anyone, but the truth is i've started to sour on him this season. at some point, the rookie mistakes have to stop. i'm willing to forgive coverage issues a little, he isn't and shouldn't be expected to be a shutdown guy...but the bad passing/puck carrying in the defensive zone are starting to be unforgivable. the most one-way of offensive defensemen can learn about safe outlets. the number of passes right up the gut that get cut off at the blueline with carle as the only guy back, those just can't happen.

i'm good with keeping him, even a *slight* raise, but he has done nothing to raise his value much beyond that. more than $4.5mil shouldn't happen.

I don't necessarily disagree with any of this (except I haven't soured on Carle this year) but some perspective is worthwhile:

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20122ALLDADALL&sort=giveaways&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

Defensemen who handle the puck a lot will get their share of turnovers. Some that have more TO's this year than Carle: Chara, Doughty, Carlson (the guy Flyers fans love to love, and who the Flyers could have drafted if they hadn't... etc, etc... and ended up with Carle), Bieksa...

Not saying I wouldn't like to see Carle turn the puck over less frequently, but it does kind of come with the job.

Edited by JackStraw
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Good point Jack, and something I should keep in mind. But I would say this. While I can't recall any specific games last year, Matt Carle seemed like a [much?] better puck-handler then as opposed to now. Like Aziz said passes up the gut that should never happen are beginning to look like a nightly occurrence with this guy. Why? I would swear he wasn't doing much of that last year. Also this year he's tending to skate the puck directly into unmanageable situations in the N zone, then looking for a dump that isn't there.

Basically he looks like he's playing with less intelligence this year than last, that's all. I still value his game but I agree with Aziz's number - $4.5 or even $4 should be the outside figure.

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I would probably be fine with anything under $5 million, 4.5 sounds reasonable. That's what Coburn got and I think they're comparable (Coburn better on d, Carle better on o). Personally I think he's having his best year since coming to the Flyers, obviously regardless of who you are life is going to be easier if you're playing with Pronger. This year he's been mixed and matched it seems, having a consistent partner on defense would probably help.

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Defensemen who handle the puck a lot will get their share of turnovers. Some that have more TO's this year than Carle: Chara, Doughty, Carlson (the guy Flyers fans love to love, and who the Flyers could have drafted if they hadn't... etc, etc... and ended up with Carle), Bieksa...

yeah, it's true. it's where they happen that is important. i can't speak to the other guys, but carle has started making a habit of unforced turnovers deep in his own zone. a turnover at the offensive blueline trying to make a slick play for a scoring opportunity is a far cry from a turn over on a simple breakout play at your own hashmarks.

he isn't brian mccabe or anything, but it happens way too often. i like what he brings, but like i said, those have to stop.

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I agree, but I would bet that with the other guys it's probably similar. That's where defensemen tend to handle the puck- in their zone or the neutral zone. Again, I would like to see less of it, but to me what Carle does well outweighs his mistakes. Enough so that I would prefer that the Flyers try to keep him. But preferably for less than $5 million a year.

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Instead of "waiting till next year" why not sell some parts? Like Kimmo or Carle to a contender? I know it sounds crazy, but maybe you can stockpile some picks ad get some more youth and add to this nucleus. It would be very unconventional, but it would add youth.

Because, in the case of Timmo, you need veterans too. Need to keep a few teachers around, even if they they are long in the toothe. That's why we should sign Jagr for ONE more year...

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