Thank God that's over

[CoachX]

21 minutes ago, icehole said:

I guess that's where my idea of "Flyers Hockey" differs from others. These past years have not been fun, and it definitely wasn't Flyers hockey. But I don't think it ended in the Lindros era either. They played tough up until Hextall came in. Emery rag dolling holtby. Simmonds was once the most feared fighter in the league. Rinaldo (everyone's favorite) could really hit.

I believe that's what Charlie and others are trying to get away from. You can be fast and skilled and keep toughness. You can hire ex flyers and be successful. I just hate when they bash a style that brought lots of fun and success to this organization. In my opinion they have gotten away from Flyers hockey, and that's why they are where they are.

I can get on board with this POV

[OccamsRazor]

3 hours ago, icehole said:

I guess that's where my idea of "Flyers Hockey" differs from others. These past years have not been fun, and it definitely wasn't Flyers hockey. But I don't think it ended in the Lindros era either. They played tough up until Hextall came in. Emery rag dolling holtby. Simmonds was once the most feared fighter in the league. Rinaldo (everyone's favorite) could really hit.

I believe that's what Charlie and others are trying to get away from. You can be fast and skilled and keep toughness. You can hire ex flyers and be successful. I just hate when they bash a style that brought lots of fun and success to this organization. In my opinion they have gotten away from Flyers hockey, and that's why they are where they are.

 

Let me say it easier...

 

 

...they've gotten SOFT!

[icehole]

10 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Let me say it easier...

 

 

...they've gotten SOFT!

Absolutely. So is that the culture that Charlie is talking about getting away from when he talks about signing Risto? There seems to be a huge misconception of what culture the current team has. Charlie picks one deal to keep a guy that is a little slower and plays physical, and he says "Typical Flyers...gotta get away from this culture".

That's very near sighted and slightly lazy journalism. Maybe next time he can mention throwing snowballs at Santa and talk about cheesesteaks. Maybe he should dig deeper and see that the culture consists of "Lazy" Hazey, "mouth guard" JVR, "frosty" Frost, "chirpy but never fight" Konecny, "hasn't been the same" (no fault of his own) Lindblom, "overhyped" Provorov, "nice kid" Sanheim, and "heart not in it" Hart.

Does that sound like a slow, tough, gritty, grind it out roster?

Edited May 3, 2022 by icehole

[OccamsRazor]

14 minutes ago, icehole said:

Absolutely. So is that the culture that Charlie is talking about getting away from when he talks about signing Risto? There seems to be a huge misconception of what culture the current team has. Charlie picks one deal to keep a guy that is a little slower and plays physical, and he says "Typical Flyers...gotta get away from this culture".

That's very near sighted and slightly lazy journalism. Maybe next time he can mention throwing snowballs at Santa and talk about cheesesteaks. Maybe he should dig deeper and see that the culture consists of "Lazy" Hazey, "mouth guard" JVR, "frosty" Frost, "chirpy but never fight" Konecny, "hasn't been the same" (no fault of his own) Lindblom, "overhyped" Provorov, "nice kid" Sanheim, and "heart not in it" Hart.

Does that sound like a slow, tough, gritty, grind it out roster?

 

I didn't read the article. But in regards to Risto they just chose the wrong "physical" defenseman in my opinion to hitch their horse to.

 

Risto is like a Finn Luke Schenn gets his self out of position chasing a hit and then if he isn't doing that well he sucks at defending around his crease.

 

He still does clear the porch and all he does is help the opposition screen his own goalie and he gets physical when he decides to with reckless abandon and almost seriously hurts his own damn goalie.

 

I have seen it countless time he comes very close to hurting Carter Hart.

 

So the Flyers need tougher forwards who are afraid to go into the rough areas to fight for the puck.

 

They are just over all too soft.

 

I am not worried about the old culture these new generation kids don't know about that but you could pick some tougher hard as nails players to not be push overs and want to win.

[OccamsRazor]

So it is official Mike Yeo out as head coach.

 

Oh joy on who the next victim is...

[mojo1917]

15 minutes ago, icehole said:

So is that the culture that Charlie is talking about getting away from when he talks about signing Risto?

I posted a portion of the article that explains his point on the first page of this thread.  It's long but kindly take 4 minutes and read it.

 

Failing to account for the metrics and the fact that Ristolainen is a 3rd pairing player who hits but paying him like he is more is the culture that isn't working.

Filling a 2 year problem with a 7 year contract is the culture that isn't working.

Thinking that signing guys to large contracts because the team has money hasn't worked since the cap...That was/is part of the culture that has borne not much in the way of success.

Where you're getting Charlie doesn't like toughness from I don't know?

Toughness has to play in today's league. He knows that.

Toughness without skill is the lottery.

 

[radoran]

30 minutes ago, icehole said:

"Lazy" Hazey,

Interesting that you note Hextall as the source of all the problems and the first player you list - "Lazy" - is Fletcher's signature move.

 

That was then doubled down on by bringing in his buddies Brassard and Yandle.

 

Fletcher "fixed" the Hextall problem by creating what is one of the worst seasons in franchise history.

 

Heckuvajob.

[CoachX]

Hextall, Fletcher,  yada yada. You all make good points. 

 

Conclusion? The Flyers hire people in key positions who make horrible decisions and aren't good at their jobs.  It smacks of corporate mismanagement who focus only on numbers, not product.

 

Last point... this is a team that isn't talented.

[icehole]

1 hour ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

I didn't read the article. But in regards to Risto they just chose the wrong "physical" defenseman in my opinion to hitch their horse to.

 

I agree...and it has nothing to do with culture. It has to do with a GM that doesn't have an eye for the right guy.

[icehole]

1 hour ago, mojo1917 said:

I posted a portion of the article that explains his point on the first page of this thread.  It's long but kindly take 4 minutes and read it.

 

Failing to account for the metrics and the fact that Ristolainen is a 3rd pairing player who hits but paying him like he is more is the culture that isn't working.

Filling a 2 year problem with a 7 year contract is the culture that isn't working.

Thinking that signing guys to large contracts because the team has money hasn't worked since the cap...That was/is part of the culture that has borne not much in the way of success.

Where you're getting Charlie doesn't like toughness from I don't know?

Toughness has to play in today's league. He knows that.

Toughness without skill is the lottery.

 

I agree with most of what you're saying, and I'm not trying to defend the Risto extension. I think it could be a bad move just because he's not good enough to deserve that extension. 

 

To be honest, I didn't read the article at first. I just went through the first couple of paragraphs and I found what I assumed to be Charlie's view on culture.

"the Flyers doubled down on him, paying him like a solid second pair defenseman when every objective metric grades him out as a third-pair guy at best. The reason? Well, it’s true that Fletcher has liked Ristolainen as a player dating back to his time in Minnesota. But it’s a near-certainty that Ristolainen’s size and physical style of play was a major factor. And it’s also a near-certainty that the older voices in the brain trust were very much in favor of bringing back a player who screams the traditional notion of what Flyers hockey should be."

His problem with the signing is that the Flyers did it because of his size and physical style of play. Then he goes onto say the "older voices in the brain trust were very much in favor of bringing back a player who screams the traditional notion of what Flyers hockey should be." Thats the narrative I don't agree with. For one, the flyers haven't signed a player like Risto for a while...this isn't the norm. Secondly, there isn't a problem with signing a player like this if he can actually play...those players do exist. And third, there's nothing wrong with ex flyers that are tied in with the team and city and worked under Snider running the team. The older voices in the braintrust brought a lot more success than we've seen in the past 8 years.

[icehole]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

Interesting that you note Hextall as the source of all the problems and the first player you list - "Lazy" - is Fletcher's signature move.

 

That was then doubled down on by bringing in his buddies Brassard and Yandle.

 

Fletcher "fixed" the Hextall problem by creating what is one of the worst seasons in franchise history.

 

Heckuvajob.

Hextall was the start of the problems. I'm not defending Fletcher...he hasn't done a very good job either. Fletcher signs bad contracts and Hextall drafts bad players. It's a bad combination for success. 

[mojo1917]

9 minutes ago, icehole said:

Fletcher signs bad contracts and Hextall drafts bad players. It's a bad combination for success

When put like that, it is easy to see why the team is terrible.

 

 

 

[radoran]

5 minutes ago, icehole said:

Hextall drafts bad players.

 

I've been over this many times on many threads.

 

When you look at where they were picking and what was available, it's really hard to criticize the picks with anything but 20/20 hindsight.

 

Hart, Provorov, Sanheim, Konecny, Lindblom, Farabee is hardly a bad bunch from four years of drafting.

 

Then add Frost, Ratcliffe, O'Brien, and Allison who could actually still be something.

 

Are there duds? Of course. Every GM has duds.

 

But, from where I sit it was two of Hextall's signings that were egregious: extending Voracek while bidding against himself and signing JVR.

 

Plus the slavish devotion to Hakstol

 

"Flyer hockey" has been about "make the playoffs and anything can happen" for decades now. And they will forever point to the year they lost the Stanley Cup - 12 years ago - to justify the theory.

 

As long as that remains the fundamental phillyosophy of this franchise, it's not going to matter much who is GM.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

When put like that, it is easy to see why the team is terrible.

 

Bad signing are far more crippling to a franchise than bad draft picks.

 

Making a 7Y, $50M mistake representing 8.8% of your cap, for example. Or 5Y, $35M, FA pickup for that matter.

 

Or a 8Y, $66M re-signing mistake. Or even 5Y, $25.5M.

 

That's sucking up cap space and taking up a roster role that does block other things from happening.

 

It's important to draft well. It's more important not to waste resources on bad moves.

 

"Flyer hockey" has been filling next year's hole with a 5-7 year problem for decades now...

[flyercanuck]

50 minutes ago, icehole said:

Hextall was the start of the problems. I'm not defending Fletcher...he hasn't done a very good job either. Fletcher signs bad contracts and Hextall drafts bad players. It's a bad combination for success. 

 

Did you see the mess Hextall inherited? 

 

He spent his first few years trying to rebuild a totally depleted farm system and getting rid of Homers terrible contracts. he FINALLY got the Flyers a goalie, maybe 2, maybe even 3. That in itself deserves praise. He also got some defencemen, who looked pretty damn good until Fletchers crew "groomed" them. The same could be said about Konecny...and Farabee....Lindblom looked good until cancer. Patricks health. 

 

 I don't think Hextall was great by any means, but he inherited a pile of crap and had it on the rise, albeit slowly (which I had no problem with). Fletcher took over that team on the rise, and after adding a bunch of terrible contracts and old washed up bums, we're picking 4th overall. 

[mojo1917]

@flyercanuck

those facts cannot be denied.

[icehole]

26 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

 

Did you see the mess Hextall inherited? 

 

He spent his first few years trying to rebuild a totally depleted farm system and getting rid of Homers terrible contracts. he FINALLY got the Flyers a goalie, maybe 2, maybe even 3. That in itself deserves praise. He also got some defencemen, who looked pretty damn good until Fletchers crew "groomed" them. The same could be said about Konecny...and Farabee....Lindblom looked good until cancer. Patricks health. 

 

 I don't think Hextall was great by any means, but he inherited a pile of crap and had it on the rise, albeit slowly (which I had no problem with). Fletcher took over that team on the rise, and after adding a bunch of terrible contracts and old washed up bums, we're picking 4th overall. 

I think a lot of GMs start strong but will eventually fall off. That's why they get fired. If they didn't fall off, they would not get fired. A lot of good teams make bad moves and sign bad contracts to do their best to win. Holmgren is a perfect example of this. He had some success by overpaying and trading assets. Then it came back to bite him, and he got fired. He hit a peak and then fell off.

 

Hextall picked up the mess, he got about halfway up the peak, and he got stuck there for a while. There are a few players that came from his drafts, but nothing with huge impact yet. Hextall's draft picks range from "he can skate" to "he doesn't look out of place out there". Are there any stars or anything to build around? TK, Hart, Sanheim and Provorov maybe. No superstars to be afraid of. I won't argue goalies because they're only as good as the team in front of them. Defensemen...what do they really have...2 top 4 Defensemen? I like Farabee as a top 6 guy...not a star. Frost has shown nothing. Patrick never looked good. He may have always been injured, but if that's the case, wouldn't you stay away from him at #2?

 

Once Hextall was fired, Fletcher came in, added bad signings, traded some assets, and here we are.

 

[OccamsRazor]

Is it over? Really or just move of the same

 

 

With a new puppet...uh I mean coach?

[CoachX]

29 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

With a new puppet...uh I mean coach?

I actually think more blame lies here than what's given. Hextall wasn't as bad in my mind (see Flyercanuck above), but Fletcher is a legit dumbschidt. The revolving door of coaches, most bad, some scapegoats, has been abysmal. I'm still shaking my head at how they ran Lavy out of town. But hey, I'm guessing he isnt an arse kissing yes man. If they don't address this issue, with a proven winner, whom they let run the team how he sees fit, they won't take any steps forward. And as I've stated previously, please God, don't let it be Tocchet

[mojo1917]

 

just going to put this lovely E -1000 tidbit here.

If true this means what?

another layer between hockey ops and Clarkegren?

more dilly-dallying, not finding a coach or a path to relevance anytime soon.

Got a lot of nothing from the Fletcher presser.

 

[pilldoc]

30 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

just going to put this lovely E -1000 tidbit here.

If true this means what?

another layer between hockey ops and Clarkegren?

more dilly-dallying, not finding a coach or a path to relevance anytime soon.

Got a lot of nothing from the Fletcher presser.

 

 

Eklund still lives in his parents  basement = e5

[CoachX]

24 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

 

just going to put this lovely E -1000 tidbit here.

If true this means what?

another layer between hockey ops and Clarkegren?

more dilly-dallying, not finding a coach or a path to relevance anytime soon.

Got a lot of nothing from the Fletcher presser.

 

worst possible scenario. promote an idiot and put an ex-flyer in as GM, one who hasn't accomplished a thing at the NHL management level.

 

 

[RonJeremy]

19 minutes ago, pilldoc said:

 

Eklund still lives in his parents  basement = e5

I think I saw Eklund on an episode where he met Chris Hanson in his basement. 

[CoachX]

1 minute ago, RonJeremy said:

I think I saw Eklund on an episode where he met Chris Hanson in his basement. 

IS that the one where he actually found the Great Pumpkin?

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, CoachX said:

worst possible scenario. promote an idiot and put an ex-flyer in as GM, one who hasn't accomplished a thing at the NHL management level.

 

 

 

The one good thing about Briere is, he can't be as lousy as Fletcher. He just can't.