Game 15: Philadelphia Flyers at Los Angeles Kings; 11/11/23 @ 10:30 PM, NBCSP

[flyercanuck]

Just now, radoran said:

 

Honestly, Deslauriers isn't on the ice for points. Frost is.

 

Now, you want to talk about Forester's three assists in 14 games in an offensive role, or Noah Cates's four points and 43% at the dot, have at it.

 

 

Oh I get that....but the game IS hockey...and Frost is better at it than DesLauriers.

 

And yes, there's 2 more examples.

[Podein25]

7 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

the game IS hockey

 

So many long snappers, I wasn't sure.

[radoran]

19 minutes ago, flyercanuck said:

Frost is better at it than DesLauriers.

 

That list is quite long. I know you don't want Frost in Deslauriers' role...

 

It's Golden Boy Catsey and Old Forester that put the lie to Tortellini's "accountability."

 

Hell, look at Poehling for that matter. 1 point, -3. and Frost has 2/3 as many hits and more than half as many blocks in 8 games to Poehling's 12. I guess it's Poehling's career .247 ppg that makes the difference to Frost's .433 ppg.

 

Seems evident that Frost has the Hextall stink on him in this organization. Sanheim would, too, but Fletchstink is more powerful.

 

I'm betting they totally thought they were getting Shane Pinto for Frost until Pinto was suspended half a season.

Edited November 14, 2023 by radoran

[OccamsRazor]

7 minutes ago, radoran said:

It's Golden Boy Catsey and Old Forester that put the lie to Tortellini's "accountability."

 

Not disputing your comments I haven't watched in awhile but Noah Cates hasn't played well?

[radoran]

16 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

 

Not disputing your comments I haven't watched in awhile but Noah Cates hasn't played well?

 

I haven't watched much to tell the truth, but if we're looking at "production" and whether people have earned playing time, Cates in 15 games has 4 points, -2, 43% at the dot, and is putting up .267 ppg after his .463 last season.

 

Frost in 8 games has three points, +4, more hits than Cates (6 to 4), 44% at the dot.

 

If players need to sit if they're not living up to the production they "can" give...

 

The basic optics of the Frost situation start to look kinda petty, though. We've already heard rumblings about his contract situation and not being at the optional workouts over the summer...

 

Of course, Frost absolutely needs to earn it, and he may very well just be Ryan Poehling in a couple years. It's just that in his second full season last year he had more points than Poehling has in his career (and Poehling was taken two spots ahead of Frost in the draft).

 

And, yes, there is "more to it than points" which is where something like Cates' 43% rate at the faceoff circle might enter into the discussion.

 

I get, to an extent, what Tortorella intends here, the question FC entertained was whether his explanation for it holds water.

 

Doesn't matter. He's the coach. He can do whatever he wants.

 

But that's what we do here.

 

[mojo1917]

3 hours ago, flyercanuck said:

 

But Deslauriers, he of 2 assists in 15 games, deserves it?

 

That's what I can't stand about Fonzie...he preaches accountability... unless you're a veteran. Then it doesn't matter. Which is completely ridiculous.

For a guy that knows so much about this game you post some puzzling stuff.

 

Those two players (Frost and Deslauriers) roles could not be more different. 

Nick D has been doing his job. Morgan Frost hasn't.

Frost is supposed to bring skill and scoring. He hasn't.

Nick D is supposed to bring physicality, hustle and penalty killing, he has. In fact the whole fourth line has been damn good this season.

 

Know what happened in LA? do ya, do ya?

Frost went between the dots and actually scored a goal. The first one was **** lucky, but one could say it's a by-product of being where goals can be scored. The second one, was a beaut.

A really nice tip off a shot from Seeler, again 'net front". Plus, they don't care about how, they care about how many.... If Frost plays like this the rest of the time, he won't be getting healthy scratched.

Even if the points aren't coming, if he's in there mixing it up and affecting the game, he'll stay.  If he goes back to the perimeter, and being passive....well then, I guess we know what kind of player he is. 

 

I expected more from Frost, I feel like I've spent enough time waiting for him to get it. If sitting 6 games or whatever is what it takes...then fine. I'm glad he played well in California.

 

 

 

[mojo1917]

45 minutes ago, radoran said:

It's Golden Boy Catsey and Old Forester that put the lie to Tortellini's "accountability."

This.

 

These two players haven't been "great" so far this year.

I don't think Ol' Foerster has been "bad", he just hasn't done what we all think he should be doing and that's scoring goals. He's still making plays and keeping possessions alive in the offensive zone. I'm not as down on him as I am on "Catesy". 

He's been pretty meh this season. What I think is weird is he played "better" in a tougher role last season. I, like probably you, would think that last year's Noah Cates would feast on this year's assignments. He hasn't.

I'm reminded of a thing I heard Jonesy say in an interview about injuries and player development. It's like a sawing a log, some big gains and then some small ones, then the blade gets stuck occasionally. I think new guys like Ol' Foerster and Catesy should be allowed to play through some of the doldrums so we can see how they react. 

 

I do think that Catesy might need a night or two off if he doesn't start to wake up. 

 

 

[OccamsRazor]

28 minutes ago, radoran said:

And, yes, there is "more to it than points" which is where something like Cates' 43% rate at the faceoff circle might enter into the discussion.

 

I agree.

 

My 3 cents is that Cates should be at LW but since there is a lack of center like the whole Frost fiasco it feels like they are beating the square peg into the round hole.

 

But hey Flyers are going to Flyer.

[flyercanuck]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

 

Seems evident that Frost has the Hextall stink on him in this organization.

 

Bingo!

[radoran]

34 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

I think new guys like Ol' Foerster and Catesy should be allowed to play through some of the doldrums so we can see how they react. 

 

To that point, Frost.

 

Dude has barely two seasons of games in the NHL - 166. He should be getting every chance to determine whether he's got long term value here or short term value at the trade deadline.

 

I will maintain it was the whole Pinto situation and Torts got stuck in a box with his mouth (again).

 

To be clear, I'm not sold on Frost at all. But we're not learning any more about the player and he's not getting any better sitting in the press box half the season.

[OccamsRazor]

38 minutes ago, mojo1917 said:

This.

 

These two players haven't been "great" so far this year.

I don't think Ol' Foerster has been "bad", he just hasn't done what we all think he should be doing and that's scoring goals. He's still making plays and keeping possessions alive in the offensive zone. I'm not as down on him as I am on "Catesy". 

He's been pretty meh this season. What I think is weird is he played "better" in a tougher role last season. I, like probably you, would think that last year's Noah Cates would feast on this year's assignments. He hasn't.

I'm reminded of a thing I heard Jonesy say in an interview about injuries and player development. It's like a sawing a log, some big gains and then some small ones, then the blade gets stuck occasionally. I think new guys like Ol' Foerster and Catesy should be allowed to play through some of the doldrums so we can see how they react. 

 

I do think that Catesy might need a night or two off if he doesn't start to wake up. 

 

 

 

Noah is a LW mis cast as a center.

 

I know crazy the Flyers would do this they've never done that before huh.

 

But seriously he is best along the boards on the wing and in the bottom 6 think of him as Coots lite.

 

That my friend is on the coaching staff.

[OccamsRazor]

3 minutes ago, radoran said:

 

To that point, Frost.

 

Dude has barely two seasons of games in the NHL - 166. He should be getting every chance to determine whether he's got long term value here or short term value at the trade deadline.

 

I will maintain it was the whole Pinto situation and Torts got stuck in a box with his mouth (again).

 

To be clear, I'm not sold on Frost at all. But we're not learning any more about the player and he's not getting any better sitting in the press box half the season.

 

Where they really effed up is many forget is coming into the season they had to know he was in the doghouse and wasn't ready in their eyes.

 

But guess what Morgan was waiver exempt until he played 2 more games.

 

And guess what they did played him in the 1st 2 games and now ol looky now they can't send him down now without waivers.

 

So between Danny and Torts they really fcuked up.

[radoran]

2 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

Noah is a LW mis cast as a center.

 

I know crazy the Flyers would do this they've never done that before huh.

 

But seriously he is best along the boards on the wing and in the bottom 6 think of him as Coots lite.

 

That my friend is on the coaching staff.

 

Dude took a ton of faceoffs last year. Won less than 40% of them, but he took them so you're probably right about him as a LW miscast in the middle.

[flyercanuck]

9 minutes ago, OccamsRazor said:

That my friend is on the coaching staff.

 

Say it ain't so! 

[GratefulFlyers]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

But we're not learning any more about the player and he's not getting any better sitting in the press box half the season.

His recent benching and night/day turnaround in his game says otherwise. It seems we just learned quite a bit about Ol’ Frosty. I’m glad he finally got in the mix and scored but it’s hardly a ringing endorsement when a player in a “prove it” year (or any year) needed a wake up call 2 games into the season.
 

And of course “turnaround” may be premature since he’s only been back 2 games. But he did look like a totally different player in those 2 games.
 

Nobody but Frost himself will ever know if the embarrassment of sitting and watching 7 games was what he needed but it certainly appears so. And if this was only Tortorella’s old M.O. dealing with younger players I won’t moan about it: it worked.
 

Edited November 14, 2023 by GratefulFlyers

[radoran]

15 hours ago, GratefulFlyers said:

Nobody but Frost himself will ever know if the embarrassment of sitting and watching 7 games was what he needed but it certainly appears so. And if this was only Tortorella’s old M.O. dealing with younger players I won’t moan about it: it worked.

 

You don't think that the entire Pinto situation which just happened to end when Frost "found his way" back into the lineup played any role here? Teams keep players out of the lineup for trade purposes all the time.

 

Regardless, if benching is such an effective ploy, we've found several other guys in the lineup who might benefit from the same treatment.

 

This is why I don't see this as some svengali magic from Torts.

 

They weren't involved in trade rumors, so they keep playing.

[mojo1917]

16 hours ago, OccamsRazor said:

Noah is a LW mis cast as a center.

 

I know crazy the Flyers would do this they've never done that before huh.

 

But seriously he is best along the boards on the wing and in the bottom 6 think of him as Coots lite.

 

That my friend is on the coaching staff.

This is all understood by me. 

Still I don't mind it, because...

What I know of Cates is he will do whatever- the best he can. 

Has he found the limits of his abilities playing center in the NHL? maybe. 

He was asked you want to play the pivot? and said yes. He wound up being pretty okay. 

He could have said no thanks. 

Is he just good enough to be not real good but still an NHL player learning the position in the NHL? I mean maybe.

Dude was picked 137th in his draft. VS Frost who was picked @ 27.

I don't think it's unreasonable to hold Frost to a higher standard based on his "pedigree".

Plus, Torts loves dudes like Cates and doesn't have a whole lot of love for finesse guys. 

 

If Frost continues to go to the net front he will not be healthy scratched. If he plays like he did the last two games... well now we might have a player.

 

[mojo1917]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

You don't think that the entire Pinto situation which just happened to end when Frost "found his way" back into the lineup played any role here?

It's interesting to me that there aren't many other people saying this. 

It is the most likely scenario. 

Even savvy media guys haven't really been mentioning the trade scenario.

Some of this Frost v Tortorella business feels manufactured to me. 

 

 

[GratefulFlyers]

1 hour ago, radoran said:

 

You don't think that the entire Pinto situation which just happened to end when Frost "found his way" back into the lineup played any role here? Teams keep players out of the lineup for trade purposes all the time.

 

I didn't factor that in because I didn't follow the Pinto drama...but maybe you're right. And maybe it was just coincidence that Frost exhibited zero energy the first few games and after he sat awhile he suddenly started doing his job. In any event benching Frost was a good move.

 

1 hour ago, radoran said:

Regardless, if benching is such an effective ploy, we've found several other guys in the lineup who might benefit from the same treatment.

 

Maybe but I tend to doubt it if you are thinking of the guys you mentioned earlier, Foerster and Poehling. I haven't watched every game but from what I've seen Poehling is bringing some heaviness to the 4th line. I think he's got a couple points. That's basically what I expect from him. AFAIK he's never been anything but a minus player and as far as production...has he ever scored more than 20 in a season?

 

Foerster is on a long leash because of his debut last year when he scored 3 goals/4 assists in 8 games IIRC. That leash is probably shorter by now. I doubt benching him would serve him well because he's still creating scoring chances and is driving play. Why he can't find the back of the net is beyond me... I'm curious what you think. If he's not subject to waivers some time with the Phantoms might help him find his hands.