JR Ewing Posted February 7 Author Share Posted February 7 (edited) 13 minutes ago, CoachX said: Im actually surprised there isnt a charge related to false imprisonment (not sure what it would be in Canada). If it was here, you could also attach "coercion of a witness", which is normally a felony in most states. If there was some threat conveyed to her if she didnt make the video, that would be "intimidation of a witness", a higher level felony. Here, the charge would be forcible confinement, and the scenario described by the victim seems to suggest a possible charge, because she absolutely said that she didn't feel free to go. According to the Criminal Code of Canada, forcible confinement is the act of holding someone against their will through the use of threats, duress, force or the exhibition of force. It's a very serious charge, carrying a possible prison term of up to 10 years. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/c-46/section-279.html 13 minutes ago, CoachX said: That video might blow up in their faces Have we ever confirmed the girl's age? She was definitely 20 at the time of the alleged assault. Edited February 7 by JR Ewing 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 @JR Ewing interesting stuff. Thanks. I recognize that celebrities are often the targets of fictitious allegations, with money and fame being the motive. It just doesn't seem like that's the case here 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 7 Share Posted February 7 4 hours ago, thegx.ca said: where the judge asked the victim why she just didn't close her legs or fight back during the sex in question...both resulted in not guilty verdicts...is Canada a more scary place because of these verdicts? Frankly? Yes. But I'm in the US so I cannot begin to throw stones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegx.ca Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 22 hours ago, radoran said: The "ok to get a girl drunk" is doing a lot of work here that I don't think you want it to be doing... If "you" are worried about "a girl" changing her mind, maybe don't insert "yourself" into her in the first place. Totally agree with that yeah you should be totally confident before inserting but there's alot of shoulda coulda woulda and that's not the legal standard in the free world...the test is proof beyond a reasonable doubt and just telling people they shoulda this or that isn't enough for criminal convictions and rightfully so... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegx.ca Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 19 hours ago, CoachX said: you mean when the girl sobers up and is capable of making sound rational judgements and is aware of her surroundings? Im going to stand by my opinion that these guys taping that girl was an attempt to cover their azzes, something you would not need to do if you thought what you were doing was righteous Ok but the video consent hurts the prosecution in my opinion and we'll just have to agree to disagree about that...overall I'm undecided and for me the video content help the defence so far and of course I haven't seen the video so guess a generalization here... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegx.ca Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 19 hours ago, CoachX said: Im actually surprised there isnt a charge related to false imprisonment (not sure what it would be in Canada). If it was here, you could also attach "coercion of a witness", which is normally a felony in most states. If there was some threat conveyed to her if she didnt make the video, that would be "intimidation of a witness", a higher level felony. That video might blow up in their faces Have we ever confirmed the girl's age? In Canada is illegal confinement... Also tampering with witnesses is for those already listed as witnesses in a court case not for when there's no case before the courts yet... Lastly the girl was an adult at the time since there are no charges relating to age etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegx.ca Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 18 hours ago, ruxpin said: Frankly? Yes. But I'm in the US so I cannot begin to throw stones. Ok...and good point about America shouldn't be throwing stones about public safety... In Canada the case where Ghomeshi and the judge asking the victim why she didn't fight back or close hurt legs were appealed and still resulted not guilty verdicts and in my opinion the courts got it right because beyond a reasonable doubt is a high bar and when people don't object to things overtly there's room for reasonable doubt what someone is really feeling inside... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 32 minutes ago, thegx.ca said: Ok...and good point about America shouldn't be throwing stones about public safety... In Canada the case where Ghomeshi and the judge asking the victim why she didn't fight back or close hurt legs were appealed and still resulted not guilty verdicts and in my opinion the courts got it right because beyond a reasonable doubt is a high bar and when people don't object to things overtly there's room for reasonable doubt what someone is really feeling inside... With Jian Ghomeshi, as I recall, the judge deciding the case found that the accusers were not just inconsistent in their testimony, but downright repeatedly untruthful. -The accusers told the court that they were terrified of him, but it was only at trial where it was discovered that they had continued to proactively email him, talking about how they were looking forward having sex with him again, how they enjoyed themselves, describing how rough they wanted it, etc. One of the accusers sent bikini pictures and another sent a photo of her fellating a beer bottle. -The judge essentially found that the accusers conspired against Ghomeshi. They exchanged thousands of text between each other, in which they talked about how they were going to destroy him and his career, and also hired the same lawyer and also employed a publicist. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, JR Ewing said: With Jian Ghomeshi, as I recall, the judge deciding the case found that the accusers were not just inconsistent in their testimony, but downright repeatedly untruthful. -The accusers told the court that they were terrified of him, but it was only at trial where it was discovered that they had continued to proactively email him, talking about how they were looking forward having sex with him again, how they enjoyed themselves, describing how rough they wanted it, etc. One of the accusers sent bikini pictures and another sent a photo of her fellating a beer bottle. -The judge essentially found that the accusers conspired against Ghomeshi. They exchanged thousands of text between each other, in which they talked about how they were going to destroy him and his career, and also hired the same lawyer and also employed a publicist. Plus Ghomeshi had an absolute shark of a lawyer who made minced meat of those women. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted February 8 Author Share Posted February 8 16 minutes ago, Podein25 said: Plus Ghomeshi had an absolute shark of a lawyer who made minced meat of those women. Yes, from everything I've read, Marie Henein is pretty much one of the top dog defense attorneys in the country. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Podein25 Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 7 minutes ago, JR Ewing said: Yes, from everything I've read, Marie Henein is pretty much one of the top dog defense attorneys in the country. Terrifying really. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 4 hours ago, thegx.ca said: Ok but the video consent hurts the prosecution in my opinion and we'll just have to agree to disagree about that...overall I'm undecided and for me the video content help the defence so far and of course I haven't seen the video so guess a generalization here... Yep, agree to disagree we’ll see how it plays out. I just don’t see how a heavily intoxicated person making any kind of admission can be considered credible Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegx.ca Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 (edited) 22 hours ago, JR Ewing said: With Jian Ghomeshi, as I recall, the judge deciding the case found that the accusers were not just inconsistent in their testimony, but downright repeatedly untruthful. -The accusers told the court that they were terrified of him, but it was only at trial where it was discovered that they had continued to proactively email him, talking about how they were looking forward having sex with him again, how they enjoyed themselves, describing how rough they wanted it, etc. One of the accusers sent bikini pictures and another sent a photo of her fellating a beer bottle. -The judge essentially found that the accusers conspired against Ghomeshi. They exchanged thousands of text between each other, in which they talked about how they were going to destroy him and his career, and also hired the same lawyer and also employed a publicist. True and until any person actually takes the stand and testifies we don't actually know well 100% certainty what they will say...Ghomeshi case is a good example of that... Edited February 9 by thegx.ca Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegx.ca Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 20 hours ago, Podein25 said: Plus Ghomeshi had an absolute shark of a lawyer who made minced meat of those women. Ghomeshi lawyer is elite for sure I always remember her closing or opening arguments just undeniable: The law states that every accused is presumed innocent...it does not state that witnesses are to be presumed credible... --- Truly one of the best quotes ever... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegx.ca Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 21 hours ago, Podein25 said: Terrifying really. Better to let 10 truly guilty accused be wrongfully found not guilty than to have even 1 truly not guilty accused be wrongfully found guilty...so for me it's more terrifying to not have good defence lawyers available to the public... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thegx.ca Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 20 hours ago, CoachX said: Yep, agree to disagree we’ll see how it plays out. I just don’t see how a heavily intoxicated person making any kind of admission can be considered credible Yeah I agree drunk people are not too be trusted either...but they are still accountable for their actions and their choices and for what they too even if what they said wasn't truthful they still gotta be accountable for their actions and words to some degree... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, thegx.ca said: Yeah I agree drunk people are not too be trusted either...but they are still accountable for their actions and their choices and for what they too even if what they said wasn't truthful they still gotta be accountable for their actions and words to some degree... We certainly do this with driving, or operating machinery, and often childcare, etc. So yeah, I can't disagree here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
radoran Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 15 minutes ago, ruxpin said: We certainly do this with driving, or operating machinery, and often childcare, etc. So yeah, I can't disagree here. The reason we do it with those things is that being drunk affects your decision making and ability to function. I don't think this conversation goes the same way if we're talking about a guy getting another guy drunk and inserting himself into the guy who was too drunk to know what was going on. Pretty sure "guys" don't want to live in that world. Don't make women live in it, either. 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post flyercanuck Posted February 9 Popular Post Share Posted February 9 39 minutes ago, radoran said: if we're talking about a guy getting another guy drunk and inserting himself into the guy who was too drunk to know what was going on. Pretty sure "guys" don't want to live in that world. Don't make women live in it, either. Agreed. When I was drunk I may have slept with the odd girl that I never would have if sober...though I was never drunk enough to sleep with a guy. 1 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 33 minutes ago, radoran said: The reason we do it with those things is that being drunk affects your decision making and ability to function. I don't think this conversation goes the same way if we're talking about a guy getting another guy drunk and inserting himself into the guy who was too drunk to know what was going on. Pretty sure "guys" don't want to live in that world. Don't make women live in it, either. I don’t want to speak for someone else, but being a person who’s investigated these type of incidents, and a former coach, who’s witnessed the personalities and behaviors of young men, I would imagine 5 high profile athletes walking into a room to have sex with a single girl, already have a certain level of disdain and lack of respect for that girl. Carrying on with your intent knowing she’s intoxicated is way beyond bad judgement. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 1 hour ago, ruxpin said: We certainly do this with driving, or operating machinery, and often childcare, etc. So yeah, I can't disagree here. I get your point but each of those examples potentially threaten, or cause harm to others. I would also agree that being intoxicated should not be an excuse to enact violence on another, although I guess based on a recent CA court case you can stab someone to death while stoned, as long as you claim “psychotic episode”. But, in each of these examples crimes are committed because the person is impaired, and the standard is that “impaired” means inability to do something, like make sound rational decisions 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted February 9 Share Posted February 9 8 hours ago, radoran said: The reason we do it with those things is that being drunk affects your decision making and ability to function. I don't think this conversation goes the same way if we're talking about a guy getting another guy drunk and inserting himself into the guy who was too drunk to know what was going on. Pretty sure "guys" don't want to live in that world. Don't make women live in it, either. Extremely good point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JR Ewing Posted February 10 Author Share Posted February 10 During a news conference on Monday, the London Police Service addressed a long-standing sexual assault case(opens in a new tab) against five former players of the 2018 world junior hockey team. At the conference, Police Chief Thai Truong said, "How we portray young women and girls on TV, in music videos, how we write about them, all that contributes to sexual violence and the normalization of what we're seeing." Members of the London community have taken to social media to express their dismay, and said the onus in a sexual assault case should not be on the perception of women, but on a perpetrator's act of violence. Jennifer Dunn at the London Abused Women's Centre is worried the comment might send the wrong message to a victim or discourage them from coming forward. "For him to address violence against women is really great," said Dunn. "But we need to remember that what a woman wears does not mean that she's asking for it. So we need to be clear — he needs to be clear — that's not the message he intended to release." CTV News London sat down with Truong on Wednesday and asked him to elaborate. The new chief has a background in commercial sexual exploitation of women and girls with a focus on human trafficking. "Society right now is highly sexualized and because of that, it perpetuates what men and young boys think. So they think it's OK to be dominant…masculine behaviour. This is what perpetuates how they treat young girls and young women," Truong explained. "And it's not right." It's just one contributing factor in a widespread problem, he added. King's College sociologist Jordan Fairbairn agreed. "When we have men and boys growing up in environments where they are saturated with messages around women and girls not being fully human or being fully equal or having full autonomy over their bodies, you have this chipping away, sort of disillusion of a human person that can be seen as more of an object," said Fairbairn. Truong said he is not victim blaming, and is worried there's a lack of sensitivity from the public toward victims in sexual assault cases. "We look at the actions of the young girl or female and we start questioning how they were dressed, what their conduct was, when we should be looking at how was the conduct of that perpetrator — that individual," he said. As for popular culture's influence on how people view women, Truong said including men in the conversation is paramount. "We need to make efforts to educate and have real conversations with boys and men right at the early start — that's one way we need to address it," said Truong. https://london.ctvnews.ca/london-ont-s-police-chief-clarifies-comments-at-sexual-assault-news-conference-after-backlash-1.6761665 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CoachX Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 20 minutes ago, JR Ewing said: During a news conference on Monday, the London Police Service addressed a long-standing sexual assault case(opens in a new tab) against five former players of the 2018 world junior hockey team. At the conference, Police Chief Thai Truong said, "How we portray young women and girls on TV, in music videos, how we write about them, all that contributes to sexual violence and the normalization of what we're seeing." Members of the London community have taken to social media to express their dismay, and said the onus in a sexual assault case should not be on the perception of women, but on a perpetrator's act of violence. Jennifer Dunn at the London Abused Women's Centre is worried the comment might send the wrong message to a victim or discourage them from coming forward. "For him to address violence against women is really great," said Dunn. "But we need to remember that what a woman wears does not mean that she's asking for it. So we need to be clear — he needs to be clear — that's not the message he intended to release." CTV News London sat down with Truong on Wednesday and asked him to elaborate. The new chief has a background in commercial sexual exploitation of women and girls with a focus on human trafficking. "Society right now is highly sexualized and because of that, it perpetuates what men and young boys think. So they think it's OK to be dominant…masculine behaviour. This is what perpetuates how they treat young girls and young women," Truong explained. "And it's not right." It's just one contributing factor in a widespread problem, he added. King's College sociologist Jordan Fairbairn agreed. "When we have men and boys growing up in environments where they are saturated with messages around women and girls not being fully human or being fully equal or having full autonomy over their bodies, you have this chipping away, sort of disillusion of a human person that can be seen as more of an object," said Fairbairn. Truong said he is not victim blaming, and is worried there's a lack of sensitivity from the public toward victims in sexual assault cases. "We look at the actions of the young girl or female and we start questioning how they were dressed, what their conduct was, when we should be looking at how was the conduct of that perpetrator — that individual," he said. As for popular culture's influence on how people view women, Truong said including men in the conversation is paramount. "We need to make efforts to educate and have real conversations with boys and men right at the early start — that's one way we need to address it," said Truong. https://london.ctvnews.ca/london-ont-s-police-chief-clarifies-comments-at-sexual-assault-news-conference-after-backlash-1.6761665 Good luck shutting down or changing the porn industry 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted February 10 Share Posted February 10 @JR Ewing @CoachX That was my argument on the posts I hid because I was getting off topic..... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.