Injury News Grossman, 7-10 Days, Briere, indefinite

[B21]

@B21

@aziz

I'm sure we can agree that some guys in the league get away with more than others, based mostly on reputation? IMO Crosby is in the "some guys" group (Briere too), not the "others".

Plus I just plain don't like him, so screw your logic

I hate him, too. (JK). Not really but I can see why others do. He was put in a position by the league (through no fault of his own) where he's gotta be "cleaner" than the next guy or else. A Hartnell sneaks a slash in on someone...no big deal. But Crosby does it and he's 1) the devil and 2) getting preferential treatment if it's not called. I wish he was Lady Byng candidate every year but that's not his style. Doesn't make him any better or worse than any other player (and there are many) who play the same kind of game.

[mojo1917]

@B21

"clean" and "classless" aren't mutually exclusive, watch family guy occasionally you'll see all kinds of "clean" yet "classles" dialogue... i'm not bagging on family guy either, i think the pre 2011 episodes are fantastic.

at the end of the day briere's regular season was ended by a 4th line scrub on a big hit during a game in which the outcome was decided.

you're lips would be flapping if jody shelly had done that to jordan staal and don't act like they wouldn't.

it was a textbook check . that had no bearing on the outcome of the contest.

[B21]

@B21

"clean" and "classless" aren't mutually exclusive, watch family guy occasionally you'll see all kinds of "clean" yet "classles" dialogue... i'm not bagging on family guy either, i think the pre 2011 episodes are fantastic.

at the end of the day briere's regular season was ended by a 4th line scrub on a big hit during a game in which the outcome was decided.

you're lips would be flapping if jody shelly had done that to jordan staal and don't act like they wouldn't.

it was a textbook check . that had no bearing on the outcome of the contest.

It's a 60 minute game. Not 58:30. You're telling me that if Letang were skating up ice with his head down and Rinaldo leveled him with a legal hit and Pens fans whined about it....you would agree with the Pens fans? Because that is the argument you are making.

The Rinaldos and Vitales of the world go all-out all the time. Otherwise, they pack their bags for the AHL. If Rinaldo makes the same hit you applaud that all the way to the bank. Don't even try to deny that you would.

The problem is Vitale "out-Flyered" a Flyer...and you don't like it.

[xganarchy]

One issue I had with the end of the game was Asham suckering Schenn when he hadn't even dropped the gloves. Just b/c the Flyers were skating over to Vitale doesn't mean they were going to jump him. They were sticking up for their teammate, which happens ALL the time, even for clean checks. And there IS a difference between "legal" and "dirty".

[mojo1917]

@B21

no i actually don't care a whole lot about it, it was unfortunate briere was hurt and that's really the end of it,

if this were the flyers vs the oh i don't know phx coyotes that hit doesn't take place in the same situation, because of a rivalry there needed to be a message sent. whatever.

the pens weren't coming back from 3 down in those 63 seconds, that check wasn't necessary. it does look good on youtube though.

I don't know what laviolette was thinking send out mash unit simmonds and briere in that situation, i blame our coach as much as i do vitale, it doesn't make vitale a "classy guy" though

i don't think your team matches up very well with my team with a full quiver , which, now thanks to that hit and the unfortunate hit on grossman we don't have , we'll just have to rely on one of our good young guys instead of a proven playoff performer, and our shut down d man, but our young guys have proven themselves to be up to the task.

[B21]

One issue I had with the end of the game was Asham suckering Schenn when he hadn't even dropped the gloves. Just b/c the Flyers were skating over to Vitale doesn't mean they were going to jump him. They were sticking up for their teammate, which happens ALL the time, even for clean checks. And there IS a difference between "legal" and "dirty".

So again...what did the Pens do wrong? I don't have any problem with sticking up for a teammate like the Flyers did...almost impossible for the guys on the ice to know at the time if that hit is legal or not. But don't sit there and point the finger at the Pens and accuse them of sending a message or act like they started that mess. Just because the whole incident made Lavi's ****** itch doesn't mean he's right.

And yes - there is a difference between legal and dirty. My point exactly. It's also VERY hard to be both. Vitale's was legal and NOT dirty. The only case made that it was "dirty" so far was that the game was decided and there was little time left. Boo hoo. So if a team is down 8-1 going into the 3rd period all of the players should just skate around trying to score, All-Star game-style, and no one should make any big hits on the opposition. I mean really...this is the Flyers section, no?

And Asham did not "sucker" Schenn. It was a scrum. It starts and punches are thrown. Hit or be hit. Now Schenn knows.

[aziz]

@terp

My point is that his PIM totals don't prove or disprove your point

?

you get PIMs when you get punished for doing stuff. if you have a lot of PIMs, you got punished for doing a lot of stuff. as opposed to not getting punished for doing stuff. how is there not a statistical correlation there? more PIMs = more punishment, right?

seems to me that you are discounting the entirely relevant statistical forensics here because they undermine your assertion that Crosby doesn't get punished for doing stuff. he spends a considerable amount if time in the box, and obviously that isn't because the refs ignore the stuff he does.

[Podein25]

...the entirely relevant statistical forensics...

Ok, that's quite enough of that kind of talk @aziz

[JackStraw]

Man oh man oh man... Flyers fans complaining about a player getting away with dirty play. Bobby Clarke would be turning over in his grave... if he was dead of course.

[B21]

@mojo1917

<< no i actually don't care a whole lot about it, it was unfortunate briere was hurt and that's really the end of it,

if this were the flyers vs the oh i don't know phx coyotes that hit doesn't take place in the same situation, because of a rivalry there needed to be a message sent. whatever. >>

If the point was to "send a message" something would have happened a lot sooner...like right after the face off. Funny, I didn't see any Pens challenge any Flyers to a fight. If the point was to send a message, you go out of your way to do so. Briere had his head down. If he does not, there is no hit to be made and chances are time just runs out.

<< the pens weren't coming back from 3 down in those 63 seconds, that check wasn't necessary. it does look good on youtube though.

I don't know what laviolette was thinking send out mash unit simmonds and briere in that situation, i blame our coach as much as i do vitale, it doesn't make vitale a "classy guy" though >>

Who said it makes Vitale a classy guy? I certainly does not make him "unclassy" or dirty. Not at all. He's a 4th liner who knows he only keeps his job if he goes 110% all the time. He does not have the luxury of taking a shift off...even a shift with 1:30 left. Sorry if that offends a Flyer fan (of all people) but that's the truth. "Blame" Vitale...interesting choice. Can't blame him for making a big hit? The only player to blame is Briere.

<< i don't think your team matches up very well with my team with a full quiver , which, now thanks to that hit and the unfortunate hit on grossman we don't have , we'll just have to rely on one of our good young guys instead of a proven playoff performer, and our shut down d man, but our young guys have proven themselves to be up to the task. >>

Agree about not matching up. Funny how this season played out. You owned us. We owned the Rangers. The Rangers owned you. Weird.

[aziz]

@ sarsippius

Plus I just plain don't like him, so screw your logic

I'm right there with you on that. I just flat out don't like the guy.

I wish people could just go with that, is all, rather than come up with broken logic explanations that ignore reality. I don't have a rational reason to dislike him, and frankly, that's part of what being a fan is about. there is no more reasoning required. he's a ****, I feel dirty that he is on my FHL keeper team, and I wish him ill. I stop there, though. nothing else needed. certainly no fiction about how the league has given him a free pass and he never gets called for his on-ice antics

[xganarchy]

So again...what did the Pens do wrong? I don't have any problem with sticking up for a teammate like the Flyers did...almost impossible for the guys And Asham did not "sucker" Schenn. It was a scrum. It starts and punches are thrown. Hit or be hit. Now Schenn knows.

What!! LOL Okay, so the next time there's a scrum, you'd be fine with Rinaldo throwing off the gloves and punching Malkin/Crosby/Stall in the face a few times before even getting the gloves off? C'mon now....

I think a lot of fans are PO'd that one of our skill guys was injured when the game was pretty much over at that point. Of course we would want our players to play to the final buzzer, but that doesn't make us any less PO'd. Lavi was PO'd for the same reason. One of our best playoff performers was put out by a 4th line scrub (who coincidentally had a borderline knee on knee hit on one of our better defensemen earlier) when the game was already decided.

Looking at the situation from a neutral standpoint, many would say what happened is just part of the game and will provide for a great first round matchup. Others have said it's one of those unspoken rules, like not running up the score when ahead by 3-4 goals at the end of a game.

[B21]

@xganarchy

<< What!! LOL Okay, so the next time there's a scrum, you'd be fine with Rinaldo throwing off the gloves and punching Malkin/Crosby/Stall in the face a few times before even getting the gloves off? C'mon now.... >>

Pissed? If they got hurt...sure. But in a scrum? Don't get involved if you don't want to be hit. It happens...like Hartnell in that now famous "scrum" with Kunitz.

<< I think a lot of fans are PO'd that one of our skill guys was injured when the game was pretty much over at that point. Of course we would want our players to play to the final buzzer, but that doesn't make us any less PO'd. Lavi was PO'd for the same reason. One of our best playoff performers was put out by a 4th line scrub (who coincidentally had a borderline knee on knee hit on one of our better defensemen earlier) when the game was already decided. >>

Looking at the situation from a neutral standpoint, many would say what happened is just part of the game and will provide for a great first round matchup. Others have said it's one of those unspoken rules, like not running up the score when ahead by 3-4 goals at the end of a game. >>

Hey...you have every right to be PO'd. But being PO'd at the situation versus "blaming" what happened on the Pens is a little different. Should Lavi have known better? Maybe...he didn't have the luxury of the last change but still...why take a chance. Send out the 4th line. Not sure about an unwritten rule here, either.

[terp]

@terp

?

you get PIMs when you get punished for doing stuff. if you have a lot of PIMs, you got punished for doing a lot of stuff. as opposed to not getting punished for doing stuff. how is there not a statistical correlation there? more PIMs = more punishment, right?

seems to me that you are discounting the entirely relevant statistical forensics here because they undermine your assertion that Crosby doesn't get punished for doing stuff. he spends a considerable amount if time in the box, and obviously that isn't because the refs ignore the stuff he does.

It may support my view though that is incidental. Your logic is what is at issue. You say PIM faithfully reflects what a player deserves so therefore Crosby gets only what he deserves. You discount the possibility of bias, which is what the discussion is all about. Once you introduce bias (I don't think you'll attempt to say it doesn't exist), the whole thing becomes subjective.

[aziz]

@terp

"faithfully" reflect what a player deserves, no, I wouldn't say that. again, hartnell could legitimately pick up 30 minutes in penalties every game, if everything he did was caught and punished. that doesn't happen, so, no, I wouldn't say PIMs are an exact representation of what the player does on the ice as regards the rulebook.

it is a relative indicator, though. hartnell plays a nastier game than most, and his penalty totals reflect that. Crosby also plays the game less cleanly than average, though not as far out there as hartnell, and his totals reflect that.

I would expect a player who enjoyed a beneficial bias from the refs to have an unusually low penalty total. jagr, for example, has his arms and stick wrapped around someone every time he goes into a corner, but rarely gets nicked for it. giroux maked very free use of his stick, especially on opposing players' legs, but has only been grabbed for twelve minors all season. Crosby, on the other hand, averages a trip to the box every other game.

are you really saying a bias as relates to penalty calling won't have any reflection on penalty totals? does that really make sense?

[sarsippius]

@terp

you get PIMs when you get punished for doing stuff. if you have a lot of PIMs, you got punished for doing a lot of stuff. as opposed to not getting punished for doing stuff. how is there not a statistical correlation there? more PIMs = more punishment, right?

Well yeah but that analysis is a little more comlipicted than A=B. If Dave Schultz only got 300 PIMs in 74-75 he would have led the league, and according to your analysis he therefore he got punished alot. But it would not have been getting punished commensurate with his crimes

[terp]

I would expect a player who enjoyed a beneficial bias from the refs to have an unusually low penalty total.

Why would bias only take that form? It is equally plausible that it take the form of a lower total than a player might have absent the bias. That's the thing about bias: it is unpredictable and hard to measure.

are you really saying a bias as relates to penalty calling won't have any reflection on penalty totals? does that really make sense?

So, as I explained above, yes and yes. I believe Crosby benefits from bias. Officials look askance at his stick work and find his dives compelling. I can't prove it, but you can't prove that he doesn't by using his PIM total. It's subjective.

[sarsippius]

@ sarsippius

I'm right there with you on that. I just flat out don't like the guy.

I wish people could just go with that, is all, rather than come up with broken logic explanations that ignore reality. I don't have a rational reason to dislike him, and frankly, that's part of what being a fan is about.

It's the "emotional" argument vs the "intellectual" argument. It's just human nature, hate something because of a previous bias and find a reason to back up the bias...but you're right, there are enough reasons to dislike the little prik without trying too hard!

[aziz]

@terp

Why would bias only take that form? It is equally plausible that it take the form of a lower total than a player might have absent the bias

sure, absolutely. do you really think he ought to be in the 100 PIM club, though? you think be crosses the line as often and as flagrantly as the ben eagers and milan lucics of the league? I see plenty of nasty work from him, but not more than, say, bieksa or tootoo. the level of his line-blurring strikes me as about the same as getzlaf or mike richards... and hey, look at that, he averages about the same PIM total as those two.

Officials look askance at his stick work

true. but 'askance' means "with suspicion or disapproval" we agree!

It's subjective.

I disagree. Crosby plays about as nasty a game as Mike Richards, and is penalized about the same. more, actually, because Crosby doesn't pick up many fighting majors, so his average has that many more minors to keep the two of them on pace. the idea that this is completely subjective is just a way to say things that don't make any sense without having to back them up. crosby's play style has peers, and his PIM totals confirm that. he plays a 75 PIM game, and averages around 75 PIMs. he does not play the game like lucic does, and to insist he ought to be penalized at that rate is, well, biased.

that last part is subjective, though.

[terp]

do you really think he ought to be in the 100 PIM club, though?

Maybe. Or maybe Brad Marchand or James Neal is a better comparison.

true. but 'askance' means "with suspicion or disapproval" we agree!

Meaning they don't raise their arms.

Crosby plays about as nasty a game as Mike Richards, and is penalized about the same.

Seems like a pretty subjective assessment to me. One could turn the argument on its head and say that Mike Richards plays a cleaner. At the least, Richards is less likely to take a dive or take a stick to another player for daring to defend him.

that last part is subjective, though.

No, I would call it hyperbole. Lucic is typically well over 100 PIM per season.

[peter puck]

OV skipped the All-Start Game pretty much in protest of a 3-game suspension he certainly deserved but thought he didn't. OV, as captain, was part of a group of players on the Caps who tuned out their coach resulting in the coach being fired.

And you want to compare that with Crosby? They guy whined too much as an 18 year old rookie and "maybe" the following year. Wow. Tar and feather him. 15 years from now that will still be following him.

Next time Briere or Hartnell get sent to the box for a call they don't like, pay attention and see what they do. I'm sure they are thanking the ref for making such a good call.

Good grief.

OV was wrong to skip the dog and pony show he got the suspension he deserved.he shouldnt have been there based on his play at the timeeven though it was the allstar game and hes a "star "

Im sure there was some goings on in the Pens lockerroom when M.T. was fired and Sid was the captain,not every team airs out their dirty laundry. That team decided they didnt like coach and layed down on him.Some say it was his style but it damn sure worked the year before.

Whining as an 18 and maybe a 19 year old what have you been watching? He hasnt gotten his whinig and diving reputation on a Flyers chat room.

The Flyers havent been the Broad Street Bullies like 30 years. They were a soft team and Ed Snider went out and got the players he needed and beat them at their own game.The game has changed and so has the Flyers so put down your buckets already. No matter what you say Sid hasnt.

9 out of 10 plays argue the call when they go to the box do they get labeled as whiners? No. Sid is constantly whining in every situation even though he admits and his stats prove he commits his fair share and we all know he gets away with just as much as the next player.If Giroux, Ovie and the other stars acted that way wouldnt they be labeled too?

Asked yourself this if that was Sids face being drove into the ice while the player ignored the refs would the penalty call and the presser be different? Even the annoucers said there should have been some stiffer penalty called. Sid, Mario, Bylsma, Shero the league and every hockey related show would be all over it calling for suspesions and fines.

Like i said in the post hes the best player in the league and the face of the NHL his act is shameless for someone with that stature.

Read Mojos post and you know it to be true

[aziz]

@terp

Or maybe Brad Marchand or James Neal is a better comparison

ok, we can agree there.

Crosby has a higher PIM per game average than both of them.

marchand - .924

neal - .85

crosby - .928

subjective again?

[Mad Dog]

Look. I think Crosby is a dirty and disgusting player. When I see the camera zooming on his face, every time I feel an urge to hit him in the face. I dislike him and I dislike him a lot. But let's be objective for a second.

People get biased when it suits their emotions. We are forgetting that Bill Barber was arguably one of the biggest divers the game has ever seen. Moreover, I am not sure whether people realize this or not, Clarke's play was very reminiscent of Crosby's. Depending on who you ask, he was a master of sneaky, dirty plays. He would very often hit from behind and then hide behind Dave Shultz. Yet he was - and still is - loved by just about every single Flyer fan... and rightfully so. He did whatever it took to win and left everything he had in his not-so-big body on the ice, on every shift and in every game. The difference is that Clarke was a Flyer and Crosby is a hated Penguin. I get all that. But let's try to keep things in perspective.

Edited April 5, 2012 by Mad Dog

[OH1FlyersFan]

would it suprise you to learn crosby has a higher PIM/game average than briere over his career?

Imagine what that number would be if he was getting called for everything he gets away with! He'd be leading the league in penalty minutes. Ha.

[peter puck]

Look. I think Crosby is a dirty and disgusting player. When I see the camera zooming on his face, every time I feel an urge to hit him in the face. I dislike him and I dislike him a lot. But let's be objective for a second.

People get biased when it suits their emotions. We are forgetting that Bill Barber was arguably one of the biggest divers the game has ever seen. Moreover, I am not sure whether people realize this or not, Clarke's play was very reminiscent of Crosby's. Depending on who you ask, he was a master of sneaky, dirty plays. He would very often hit from behind and then hide behind Dave Shultz. Yet he was - and still is - loved by just about every single Flyer fan... and rightfully so. He did whatever it took to win and left everything he had in his not-so-big body on the ice, on every shift and in every game. The difference is that Clarke was a Flyer and Crosby is a hated Penguin. I get all that. But let's try to keep things in perspective.

I agree with you on Barber being perhaps the biggest diver in the game and also with you on the fact that Clarke was a vicious hatchet man just ask Kharmalov. The thing you have to remember is what era that took place.the league was full of goons and hatchet men, bench clearing brawls and goalie fights.Bob Clarke 5'-10' 176 lbs 41 fights in a 15 year career so i dont think he hid to much but i get your point. Sid Crosby 5'-11 200lbs 5 fights in 7 years in a league thats a step away from being ice capades and you can be sure hes started and hid from a few. Clarke was warrior and Sid is an incredibly talented player but to be really objective here we cant compare them because the league is no where near the same. Dont get me wrong if Clarke played for a different team he damn sure wouldnt be spoken fondly of in Philly same goes for Sid and Pitt.