The Bad News

[Mad Dog]

How we are up 2-0 in this series with those kind of numbers is beyond me.

One reason: Pittsburgh. That team is self-destructing. They are mess. They don't know what the word coverage is. Letang plays like a woman. Their defense cannot possibly play any worse. And Fluery is.... well..... not taht Bryz outplays him, but Bryz at least makes *some* big saves when his team needed him to. Fleury so far came up very small.

Don't get me wrong: I am not saying the Flyers don't deserve to be 2:0 in the series. But the team they are playing have more to do with where this series is than the Flyers. The Flyers have to fix their own crap and do it fast, because Malkin and Crosby are capable of turning things around...The way this team starts games is unheard of. I don't understand it.

[flyercanuck]

@aziz

Ya, the home ice thing means squat. I'd just like to see him only allow a goal or two. I know this isn't all on him, the team needs to show up right off the getgo. But he was brought in for a reason, and other than, as you say, a small sample-size, he owes us BIGTIME!

[SpikeDDS]

Rangers are a better team than the Pens. Period.

If the Flyers continue to play like they are, they just might beat the Pens, and they will gain some confidence as a result, which will help them. But that won't be enough to beat the Rangers in a 7-game series. They've got to change their game some, and it would be better if they did it while still playing the Pens. Doing it on the fly against a very good team is risky.

But hey, I've got no skin in the game, and I love watching this kind of hockey, so play on! Just realize that history shows that this kind of play wins series, but not Cups in the modern era.

[aziz]

Rangers are a better team than the Pens. Period.

no, they aren't. don't buy the hype. they are paper thin, with a very good coach and a great goalie. slightly above average d-corps, below average crop of forwards, details systems, and an top top shelf keeper.

they have no reliable offensive production outside of gaborik, and the problem with a systems-heavy approach is it's predictable. it can be scouted and exploited when a coaching staff has the luxury of focusing on that one team for a couple weeks.

that doesn't mean they can't win it all. we saw last year how an amazing goaltending performance can hand an unspectacular team the cup. it will be an entirely different kind of test for the flyers, though, than pittsburgh. versus pitt, it's all about containing and matching an offensive powerhouse. versus new york, it'd be about outlasting tortorella's chess game and overcoming lundqvist.

and anyway, that's likely two rounds from now. pitt isn't dead, and boston would probably be next in line.

[mojo1917]

Does any one have the feeling that the Pens could have won each of the these games ?

I ask because I recall in 2010 feeling lalthough the Flyers were down 3-nil each of the games could have gone either way, but the Bruins were getting the breaks, every bouncing puck settled on theirs sticks and skipped over ours... i felt like things could even out because the broons weren't kicking our asses.

I don't feel like that in these games, the first game was the closest of the two, but even in that game by the end it seemed to me like our team was moving their feet and the Pens were not. Is this selective memory ? Last night, the game was back and forth until the 3rd, again and the end of the game it seemed like the ice was open there was no push back from Pgh. Is this accurate ?

[Mad Dog]

Does any one have the feeling that the Pens could have won each of the these games ?

Sure, why not? At the very least, they started each game the right way.

Problem is (for Pittsburgh, of course), the Pens are their own worst enemy so far, not the Flyers. The Flyers are showing an amazing will to come back and win. And I give them tons of credit for that. Like Lavy said during his last post-conference - and I agree with him - this speaks for a great character. But teams with the great charcater don't always end up winning. The Pens are one big friggin' mess, especially in their own end. The last game was a teeter-totter game, and the Flyers proved to be successful. But I am not sure how many series in the playoffs a team can win allowing 4 goals a game. Against a team that doesn't have a clue how to play defense, sure, you can roll the dice and be successful. But that way of playing is unsustainable in the playoffs. I just can't imagine how the Flyers hope to keep winning this way. Sooner or later it's bound to come back and bite you in your rear end...

The good news is, to my knowedge, the Flyers have NEVER lost a playoff series when leading 2:0. Of course this doesn't mean crap, but still.

[Phillygrump]

@Mad Dog

I realize that the Penguins are not very deep and solid right now defensively, but lets not forget that they are the top scoring team in the NHL and a lot of that was before their "best player" came back.

Lets see how we start at home tomorrow and see if we have a problem with this slow start in the playoffs.

[Irishjim]

Ouch, that hurts. Ok, no more pessimistic posts for a while.

No way your Kuato. Not once did you say "We" think yadda yadda and you also kept out any Lady GAGA reference

[SpikeDDS]

that doesn't mean they can't win it all. we saw last year how an amazing goaltending performance can hand an unspectacular team the cup. it will be an entirely different kind of test for the flyers, though, than pittsburgh. versus pitt, it's all about containing and matching an offensive powerhouse. versus new york, it'd be about outlasting tortorella's chess game and overcoming lundqvist.

Rangers have a system that has been proven time and again to work for the playoffs. They aren't the New Jersey Devils of the 1990's, but they are similar in my mind: great goaltender, defensive system, not an offensive powerhouse but enough when they play their system. I think they are eerily similar to the team that won it all. Not as talented, I'll definitely admit, but still similar. I think they are tougher than you may be giving them credit for.

And how many times has a hot goalie made the difference? As good as Bryz can be, his greatness seems to some in short-lived spats. Lundqvist is more consistent.

[Mad Dog]

Let the Rangers handle Ottawa first. The Sens just tied the series.

[doom88]

Let the Rangers handle Ottawa first. The Sens just tied the series.

So did the Caps to the Bruins.

[aziz]

Rangers have a system that has been proven time and again to work for the playoffs. They aren't the New Jersey Devils of the 1990's, but they are similar in my mind: great goaltender, defensive system, not an offensive powerhouse but enough when they play their system. I think they are eerily similar to the team that won it all. Not as talented, I'll definitely admit, but still similar. I think they are tougher than you may be giving them credit for.

a few major differences: one, there is no equal to scott stevens or scott niedermeyer on the ranger's squad. two, and the more important one, that was the dead puck era. the devils could physically stop a team from coming through the neutral zone. that doesn't happen today.

the rags have no posession game. really, all they have is shot blocking and goaltending. and they have both in spades, no doubt, but their game is to let teams come at them for 60 minutes, and hope they can bend but not break. i don't know that's a recipie for playoff success in the modern age. worked pretty well in the regular season, when their opponents saw them once a month or so, and those meetings were jammed in the middle of a busy schedule. in the playoffs, though, teams can sit down, watch tape, study the coverages and plan around the very predictable systems the rangers use. and then they'll have 60 minutes to work against it, test it, explore it, and look at some more tape for the next game.

something the box score doesn't make real obvious. tonight, the shot totals for NYR and ottawa were 32-29 in the sens' favor. pretty close. add in the blocked shots, though, and things change. the rangers blocked 25 shots. the sens 10. it's impressive that the rangers can block shots like that, but my point is that they *had* to block that many shots. they let the senators launch 57 shots at the net. how long can you count on getting a shin pad on that many shots and stay alive? how long will it take for an opposing coach to map out the lane coverage and get his point men to work around it? just for more info, the shot totals in game 1 were 32-31 for the sens. but again, the rangers blocked an additional 20 shot attempts, to the sens' 12.

it could work for them. if they really can keep that up for the next two months, and somehow not let other teams scout and coach around the coverages, and if lundqvist can stand on his head without fail, they could do it. the bruins did it last season, so it is possible. it's just a very dangerous game they play, becuase they have no ability to respond if anything goes wrong. ultimately, i guess i'm just responding to the idea that they are someone to be feared above anyone else. pittsburgh is the much scarier team. with the rags, you have 60 minutes to see if you can find your way in. with pittsburgh, you have to stop the other guys from getting in, first.

[trevluk]

Philly's best two blueliners from the past two season are out and Timo is playing a limited 15 min a game, it's a battle to to limit the opponent's scoring chances.

Hard to argue with that.

[trevluk]

No way your Kuato. Not once did you say "We" think yadda yadda and you also kept out any Lady GAGA reference

Well, I was born this way. (BTW, I had to look up that Lady GAGA reference!)

Whoops! meant to say "We" were born this way!

Edited April 15, 2012 by trevluk

[OzFlyer]

Sorry @trevluk the Kuato comment was below the belt. I know that you actually watch the games!

[trevluk]

Sorry @trevluk the Kuato comment was below the belt. I know that you actually watch the games!

Sheeet bro! You'll have to dig a lot deeper than that to really get under my skin! I am a Flyers fan after all. Just don't bring up my momma and we're cool. BTW, where abouts in convict land are you? I have spent a fair amount of time down there.

[OzFlyer]

where abouts in convict land are you? I have spent a fair amount of time down there.

I am in the Blue Mountains just outside of Sydney.

[trevluk]

I am in the Blue Mountains just outside of Sydney.

Home of the "Three Sisters" rock formations and the Leura Forest if memory serves me correctly. Beautiful area. Avid surfer so spent most of my time near the coast but ventured inland every now and then.

[OzFlyer]

Home of the "Three Sisters" rock formations and the Leura Forest if memory serves me correctly. Beautiful area. Avid surfer so spent most of my time near the coast but ventured inland every now and then.

That's the one. I work in Leura.

[trevluk]

That's the one. I work in Leura.

Nice. Working as a park ranger? How'd you get a work visa? When I was travelling around OZ it was almost impossible to get a work visa for US citizens.

[OzFlyer]

I came here when I was 13. (Long time ago)

[SpikeDDS]

Before I start, I just want you to know how much I appreciated your analysis. I mean it. It's really hard to find people who love the game enough to think that deeply about a team that is not their own. This kind of discussion is why I've stayed here, despite the shortage of Detroit fans as compared to Flyers fans. So let's continue.

a few major differences: one, there is no equal to scott stevens or scott niedermeyer on the ranger's squad. two, and the more important one, that was the dead puck era. the devils could physically stop a team from coming through the neutral zone. that doesn't happen today.

Agreed and previously stated. They are not as talented as NJ was.

In fact I acknowledge and agree with your next two paragraphs 100%.

it could work for them. if they really can keep that up for the next two months, and somehow not let other teams scout and coach around the coverages, and if lundqvist can stand on his head without fail, they could do it. the bruins did it last season, so it is possible. it's just a very dangerous game they play, becuase they have no ability to respond if anything goes wrong. ultimately, i guess i'm just responding to the idea that they are someone to be feared above anyone else. pittsburgh is the much scarier team. with the rags, you have 60 minutes to see if you can find your way in. with pittsburgh, you have to stop the other guys from getting in, first.

I don't think there is ANY team this year that is so good that it needs to be feared like the stacked teams of the previous era, the best recent example of course being the '02 Wings team that was ridiculously stacked. IMHO, that team was the closest thing to the last team that could win on talent alone. A team like the '02 Wings is one to be feared. I don't think Pittsburgh should be feared. Respected? Yes. Feared? No.

Let me be clear: I'm not a Rags fan. Not even close. But I think Torts has figured out the system that works best for the talent he's got. And his boys have totally bought into that system. It's a system that is based upon the principle that they are going to do predictable things that have been shown over the course of time to work well and win Cups. Being defensively-minded. Having good defensive structure. Players playing their roles and not trying to do too much. Preventing pucks from getting into the blue. It doesn't have pizazz, but it's got bite, and history says that it wins Cups. Boston, as you noted, was just the latest permutation of that very same thing. They had/have a different skill set perhaps, but the same idea defensively. I actually think that NY plays the defensive system BETTER than the Bruins did. The Bruins rely too much on Thomas to save them. And often he comes through. He did last year. Not as much this year. But he may be able to raise his level of play for the playoff run, so I don't count them out.

If you think about what NY is doing, they are basically doing something similar to the Devils, only instead of the blue line being where they clog things up, it's further back. Because it's further back, and everything converges towards the goal mouth, they don't have to cover as much ice to stop the pucks from heading there. In a way, it's kind of money ball-ish as far as trying to get the most out of the team you've got to try to compete against more talented teams. Since they aren't Niedermeyer and Stevens, they play a system where they don't have to have the skill set to cover that whole area, and of course they have the NHL rules that forbid them from doing what NJ did. But the rules don't and can't prevent blocked shots. They DO have guys like Gaborik, who have skating ability and offensive skills which allow them to capitalize on their opponents' mistakes. Gaborik was a good addition for them. He ain't Crosby, but they don't NEED Crosby with their system, and that's why it works for them. You don't need as much talent to make their system work. You need some, but more importantly you need guys who are 100% sold out to keeping the structure and playing their roles which is easier to do, especially when the players start seeing it work on a pretty consistent basis and believing in it.

I actually don't think Lundqvist is as great as many say he is. He's very good, but the reason he shines is because he knows how to play with the system in front of him. I compare him a bit to Osgood. Osgood struggled mightily when he played for other teams. He was a MUCH better goalie for the Wings, because his game (which he changed as the years went on, BTW) was best with the Wings' system in front of him. He understood it. I think Lundqvist is more talented than Osgood, but he shines in large part because he knows what is going on in front of him. Like I said, it's a predictable system. Predictable for players on both teams, including Henrik.

There is no question that Crybaby-Malkin and their supporting cast are a very talented team. They aren't the '02 Wings, though. They aren't the Pens, Oilers, or Flyers of old. They don't have THAT much talent. They aren't talented enough to be feared. There is no team this year that you can say that about, I don't think. But I do think that if both teams play their systems, that the Rangers win a 7-gamer head-to-head more times than they don't. Not unbeatable, but a more predictable winner head-to-head. Talent still can't make pucks go through flesh, bone, and hockey pads. As you note, they've got to figure out a way to get around the blocks, and if anyone can do it, perhaps a team like Pittsburgh (or even the Flyers) can. But it's a tough road to plow, and history says so. I tend to listen to history because history has a tendency to repeat itself. History has a tendency to repeat itself.

Sorry for the long wind. Great discussion!

[doom88]

I'm not sure I agree with your take on Lundqvist at all. He has an incredible knack for making momentum changing saves on a regular basis, and never seems to go cold.

He does have two silvers at Worlds and a gold at the Olympics backstopping Sweden, so it can't all be the Rangers system.

Personally, I think Lundqvist is actually the best goalie in the league, who happens to play for a solid defensive team. Even better than Carey Price.

[Clarke2Leach]

Funny thing about the playoffs - all you have to do is win. Doesn't matter if you give up 5, as long as you score 6. I'd rather be the Flyers than the Penguins, Bruins, Canucks or the Rangers right now. All I know is this series is the most entertaining hockey I have seen in years. It's like the Olympic Finals with hitting.

I'm not going to worry about the Rangers or the Bruins until we meet them - if we meet them. The Flyers still have to close this out - that's my main concern.

[BearOnIce]

Well we can forget the Bruins and the Rags for another week at least, because the heavy lifting in this series is still to come for the Flyers.

Yes it's great, it's awesome, incredible, we're up 2-zip. But the Flyers are not exactly the best home team in the POs - far from it. And afternoon games seem to be their Achilles Heel. Our goaltender has not been anything close to "excellent." He's been good enough, which I guess is - okay, it's good enough. For now.

But - Pittsburgh can win 2 in Philly and this series could be tied in a few days. I'm not counting out the Pens just yet. Not even close.

You serious? What series you watching? Bryz is A+. The real issue Is no defense and backing in, we are missing 1/2 Pronger/Mez, and forwards slow getting back.