The Real Jonathan Bernier Thread

[flyercanuck]

I would like to add it would only take one bad year and we would be a series contender again. I still say and will post it non stop, I want Seth jones and Ryan pulock. Period . End of story.

And MacKinnon. We're not asking much.

[HansonBros17]

If Leighton gets a few more starts that would take care of the "finishing last overall" part.

[Digityman]

He's 23 and a RFA after this year. I'd think Bernier would fetch at least an NHL forward, dman and/or prospect.

Looking at LA's roster there are a lot of UFA's and RFA's this year and next.

Scuderi is a UFA @ 3.4m (Dman)

Penner is a UFA @ 3.25m (forward)

I think something like Laughton and Coburn would get it done.

Coburn steps in to replace Scuderi (and is better) for 1m more.

Laughton is a great prospect that will step in next year or the year after.

At this point, *if* the consensous is that Bernier is a franchise goalie, everyone but Giroux should be on the table.

It's time to build from the back out. (Keep in mind you can buy Bryz out next summer)

[brelic]

He's 23 and a RFA after this year. I'd think Bernier would fetch at least an NHL forward, dman and/or prospect.

Looking at LA's roster there are a lot of UFA's and RFA's this year and next.

Scuderi is a UFA @ 3.4m (Dman)

Penner is a UFA @ 3.25m (forward)

I think something like Laughton and Coburn would get it done.

Coburn steps in to replace Scuderi (and is better) for 1m more.

Laughton is a great prospect that will step in next year or the year after.

At this point, *if* the consensous is that Bernier is a franchise goalie, everyone but Giroux should be on the table.

It's time to build from the back out. (Keep in mind you can buy Bryz out next summer)

What makes the Laughton component more realistic is that Kopitar and Richards and their # 1 and 2 for the foreseeable future, so really they'll be looking to fill a 3rd center role over time.

I agree that no one is off the table except G... but man oh man, I shudder to think of our defense without Coburn. There's a lot of rebuilding to do back there.

[radoran]

As much as I would love that we'd have to finish last overall and win the lottery. Remember how that worked out last time? Un-freakin-believable that we happen to finish dead last overall and a) lose out on the top pick, and b) end up picking a dud, and c) finished last in a weak draft year.

In fairness, JVR did score 15 as a rookie and broke 20 as a sophomore (and had 11 in 43 the year after that)

He has five points in the first eight games. That means the "dud" has one more point in the first eight games than Claude Giroux did.

Now, let's see we added Pattykane to the Flyers to go with Crater and Richards. Where would they have done the most damage? On the ice or in Old City?

If JVR comes out as a perrennial 30-35 goal scorer and Luke Schenn is a run-of-the-mill 3/4 defenseman, I'm not so sure we'll even be thinking that the Flyers "won" that trade.

We'll see.

Deliebrately stinking to gain a draft pick is a stupid way to build a franchise - Pittsburgh notwithstanding (we don't want to suck for five years) - and is in no way a guarantee.

[doom88]

As much as I would love that we'd have to finish last overall and win the lottery. Remember how that worked out last time? Un-freakin-believable that we happen to finish dead last overall and a) lose out on the top pick, and b) end up picking a dud, and c) finished last in a weak draft year.

JVR isn't a dud, the Flyers and fans were impatient. Might be the next Patrick Sharp trade only bringing in L Schenn for him.

Now, getting the 2 in that draft as the worst team and only one NHL ready player really really sucks. Unreal. At least it wasn't Turris.

[brelic]

In fairness, JVR did score 15 as a rookie and broke 20 as a sophomore (and had 11 in 43 the year after that)

He has five points in the first eight games. That means the "dud" has one more point in the first eight games than Claude Giroux did.

Now, let's see we added Pattykane to the Flyers to go with Crater and Richards. Where would they have done the most damage? On the ice or in Old City?

If JVR comes out as a perrennial 30-35 goal scorer and Luke Schenn is a run-of-the-mill 3/4 defenseman, I'm not so sure we'll even be thinking that the Flyers "won" that trade.

We'll see.

Deliebrately stinking to gain a draft pick is a stupid way to build a franchise - Pittsburgh notwithstanding (we don't want to suck for five years) - and is in no way a guarantee.

To me, a 30-35 goal guy, and 60-65 point guy who went 2nd overall is a disappointment as a Flyers fan when you see almost every other year, guys like Stamkos, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Tavares, etc.

Those 'other' guys are franchise players, and JVR is most certainly not at this point in his career, and almost certainly will never be. I'd argue that Kane is not a franchise player either. So, bottom line is that it was a very weak draft year.

[radoran]

To me, a 30-35 goal guy, and 60-65 point guy who went 2nd overall is a disappointment as a Flyers fan when you see almost every other year, guys like Stamkos, Crosby, Ovechkin, Malkin, Tavares, etc.

Those 'other' guys are franchise players, and JVR is most certainly not at this point in his career, and almost certainly will never be. I'd argue that Kane is not a franchise player either. So, bottom line is that it was a very weak draft year.

Well, exactly, they picked a bad year to suck You do know you've conflated four #1 overalls in your list?

#2s - 2001 - Spezza; 2002 - Lehtonen; 2003 - E. Staal; 2004 - Malkin; 2005 - Ryan; 2006 - J. Staal; 2007 - JVR; 2008 - Doughty; 2009 - Hedman; 2010 - Seguin; 2011 - Landeskog

Certainly JVR is on a par with J. Staal; Lehtonen; Doughty. That's 4 of 11.

And, just for the record, a 30-35 goal, 60-65 point player is exactly what Bobby Ryan is. And "many" are all hot and bothered to bring in a Bobby Ryan. (Yes, Ryan is a more proven commodity)

E. Staal is a 35-40 goal, 70-point player. Heck, Spezza has never cracked 35 goals (but is more of a 50-A sort of guy).

For 2nd overall picks, if JVR is a 30-35/60-65 player, I think you've gotten value for the pick.

Trading him for a 5th overall? That's more of a crapshoot.

[brelic]

Well, exactly, they picked a bad year to suck You do know you've conflated four #1 overalls in your list?

#2s - 2001 - Spezza; 2002 - Lehtonen; 2003 - E. Staal; 2004 - Malkin; 2005 - Ryan; 2006 - J. Staal; 2007 - JVR; 2008 - Doughty; 2009 - Hedman; 2010 - Seguin; 2011 - Landeskog

Certainly JVR is on a par with J. Staal; Lehtonen; Doughty. That's 4 of 11.

And, just for the record, a 30-35 goal, 60-65 point player is exactly what Bobby Ryan is. And "many" are all hot and bothered to bring in a Bobby Ryan. (Yes, Ryan is a more proven commodity)

E. Staal is a 35-40 goal, 70-point player. Heck, Spezza has never cracked 35 goals (but is more of a 50-A sort of guy).

For 2nd overall picks, if JVR is a 30-35/60-65 player, I think you've gotten value for the pick.

Trading him for a 5th overall? That's more of a crapshoot.

I see your point. But of that list of 2nd overalls, JVR is still the weakest in my mind. There is no way he's close to Doughty! Lehtonen, I'll give you that. Staal? Hard to say because they really play different roles and have different expectations.

And other than Lehtonen, I would take ANY other player on that list 10 times out of 10.

[doom88]

If Lehtonen could stay healthy and had anything to work with early in his career, I imagine you'd have a different opinion. Especially regarding the Flyers' weakness in net, I'd take Lehtonen easily.

[radoran]

OK, I'll grant you that if Lehtfourin had had a different career, we might see things differently.

"Playing different roles" is a bit of a cop out.

To be clear, I have no issue with trading JVR, but I can see a point at which Luke Schenn might not be seen as fair value.

But, again, postulating that if JVR is a 30-35 goal scorer, he would be right in line with expectations for a second overall pick.

And it wouldn't be the first time the Flyers had dealt away a productive winger who went on to have significant success elsewhere...

[flyerrod]

Betcha any money he's interested in Iginla. He can be our new Oates

Ouch............that certainly brings back some painful memories....

[radoran]

Ouch............that certainly brings back some painful memories....

Oates had 10 points in 14 games for the Flyers and assisted on both goals the team scored in the postseason (leading the team in points).

To get him, they dealt a goalie they had drastically overrated (Ouellet) and picks that became Martin Vagner, Maxime Daigneault and Derek Krestanovich.

Those players, combined, played fewer NHL games after the trade (10) than Oates did for the Flyers (19 - including postseason).

The painful memories have precious little to do with Adam Oates and a heckuva lot to do with the rest of the team.

[flyerrod]

JVR isn't a dud, the Flyers and fans were impatient.

No, He was not a dud but he is often injured and to get value you have to trade value. Forward/Center was/is a position of strength for the Flyers so JVR was the odd man out. Yes he has the potential to be a great player going forward but he is going to have to play with more heart going forward to do that. For whatever reason, he was often coasting through games here (similar to Crater) and it was frustrating knowing the skills he possesses. Time will tell but the Flyers definitely needed a decent d-man and at the cost of a "soft" player, it was a safe gamble that we will have to wait and see if it pays off.

[flyerrod]

Oates had 10 points in 14 games for the Flyers and assisted on both goals the team scored in the postseason (leading the team in points).

To get him, they dealt a goalie they had drastically overrated (Ouellet) and picks that became Martin Vagner, Maxime Daigneault and Derek Krestanovich.

Those players, combined, played fewer NHL games after the trade (10) than Oates did for the Flyers (19 - including postseason).

The painful memories have precious little to do with Adam Oates and a heckuva lot to do with the rest of the team.

At the time of the trade, those picks were a high price to pay for a 19 game rental regardless of how those picks did.

[radoran]

At the time of the trade, those picks were a high price to pay for a 19 game rental regardless of how those picks did.

Agreed. Nonetheless, the Flyers could have signed Oates if they wanted to. He didn't have to be a rental.

That said, the draft was seen as top-heavy with defensive prospects (Flyers traded up for Pitkanen) and dropped off significantly after that - and pretty much everybody knew it. I'd say there is nobody after that Flyers first pick at 26 you could say they "missed" on, pending your opinion of, for example, Jarret Stoll. Would they have picked up Cam Ward if he had dropped to them (Ward went 25th)?

http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/draft/nhl2002e.html

In JVR's draft year, I think you can see players like Gagner and Couture who are really starting to break out and Benn dropped to the fifth round. We're hoping for that from Voracek (and Simmonds for that matter). But it's hard to say aside from 20/20 hindsight (do you think the Flyers would have either drafted or successfully developed PK Subban??) that anyone else in that year is decidedly "better" right now.

"Some" around here were gnashing teeth about not getting Turris...

[doom88]

No, He was not a dud but he is often injured and to get value you have to trade value. Forward/Center was/is a position of strength for the Flyers so JVR was the odd man out. Yes he has the potential to be a great player going forward but he is going to have to play with more heart going forward to do that. For whatever reason, he was often coasting through games here (similar to Crater) and it was frustrating knowing the skills he possesses. Time will tell but the Flyers definitely needed a decent d-man and at the cost of a "soft" player, it was a safe gamble that we will have to wait and see if it pays off.

Oh, I certainly know you need to give talent to get talent.

I think JVR had zero leeway when recovering from injuries, and often played hurt to his detriment - never given due credit. I don't think his heart was the issue with that prior season's off-season training regimen (all seasons before that, I'll buy into your argument). He just plain got hurt, and Philly trainers/med staff are the worst. His time in Philly was too short in my opinion, and I really think he will light it up one day.

[brelic]

OK, I'll grant you that if Lehtfourin had had a different career, we might see things differently.

"Playing different roles" is a bit of a cop out.

To be clear, I have no issue with trading JVR, but I can see a point at which Luke Schenn might not be seen as fair value.

But, again, postulating that if JVR is a 30-35 goal scorer, he would be right in line with expectations for a second overall pick.

And it wouldn't be the first time the Flyers had dealt away a productive winger who went on to have significant success elsewhere...

I'm not trying to cop out, but comparing Staal to JVR is a little bit (I think) like comparing JVR to Couturier, a power forward vs. a 2-way center. One has a primary focus on offense, one does not. But, sure, if I had to pick between the two, I would pick Staal.

It is more likely that my expectations for return on finishing dead last were not met because there were no franchise players available in that draft, and I was left inevitably disappointed. I was hoping for a Tavares or Stamkos, even though we knew long in advance of that draft that there was no such player.

You might argue that Kane is like that.. and maybe he is, though my only experience in watching Kane is pretty much limited to the SCF against Chicago, so I can't really comment outside of that. He's just not mentioned in the same circles as the other guys.

[radoran]

I'm not trying to cop out, but comparing Staal to JVR is a little bit (I think) like comparing JVR to Couturier, a power forward vs. a 2-way center. One has a primary focus on offense, one does not. But, sure, if I had to pick between the two, I would pick Staal.

It is more likely that my expectations for return on finishing dead last were not met because there were no franchise players available in that draft, and I was left inevitably disappointed. I was hoping for a Tavares or Stamkos, even though we knew long in advance of that draft that there was no such player.

You might argue that Kane is like that.. and maybe he is, though my only experience in watching Kane is pretty much limited to the SCF against Chicago, so I can't really comment outside of that. He's just not mentioned in the same circles as the other guys.

I sympathize. There are drafts in which there aren't franchise players. There are drafts in which there are two or even three. Then there are guys who are touted as franchise players who never work out. It's why deliberately tanking to get a draft pick is a fool's errand. Tanking for five or six straight years is something else entirely. I don't think anyone around here wants to watch the Flyers be the last six years of Edmonton Oilers.

Kane isn't a franchise player. He is more of a Ryan type (I don't see Ryan as a franchise player, either). He's the guy who, when he's on your franchise player's wing, is a solid finisher. Toews is the block upon which the Blackhawks are built. And without Perry/Getzlaf, do yo see Ryan carrying the Ducks?

I think JVR has the potential be that player and showed some of it in that Boston series. He was never really given that role in Philadelphia.

I do see eeerily similarities to the Williams/Markov deal. Williams was "always injured" and "didn't come back fast enough" and "wasn't going to reach his potential" and now he's on the Cup twice. The up side is that Schenn is at least signed for a few more years so it's not the straight rental Williams was. Dread the inevitable day when "vanRiemdyk" is misspelled on the Cup.

Witness, also, Simon Gagne. "Salary-cap problem" to Cup winner. This team has, quite frankly, made more bad calls than good ones.

[jackhole]

I think its hard to say how JVR will turn out. I see his game as more of an opportunist style (which is not a negative) rather than a player that puts together/finishes hockey plays on a consistent basis. If there are a lot of opportunities, he has the potential to do some damage, if not, well.. luck plays more heavily in the equation for him. He's a good kid, bottom line is we just need defensive help and like the rest, he's a commodity. Would've been better to tank in the 'stamkos' draft though, imagine him and giroux, damn!

[jammer2]

@jackhole I think we all know JVR has loads of talent, the question is, will he apply it, will he work hard at becoming a great pro.....I say no. All young players struggle with consistancy, but as long as the effort is there, they get a pass till they get used to the league. I'll never forget how dominant JVR was in the 2010 playoffs, he was like a man possessed...but we rarely saw it after that. The work ethic was not there....so yeah, not the kinda guy you want to go to war with....either the effort is all out, or it's not....in JVR's case, it was the latter, which is why he's wearing another jersey....and why he will never find that elusive consistancy he was missing.

[doom88]

JVR up to 6 goals in game #10.

[jammer2]

@doom88 Doubling any current Flyer.....not good, but we have a long road to travel before the winner of this trade should be declared, but nice start for the Leafs.

[doom88]

@doom88 Doubling any current Flyer.....not good, but we have a long road to travel before the winner of this trade should be declared, but nice start for the Leafs.

Agreed, but still noteworthy now.

[radoran]

If the player the Flyers got was lighting up the scoreboard, you can be sure we would be hearing a LOT about how the Flyers fleeced the Leafs...