toughfighter83 Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 this is probably one of most biggest problems with the flyers because they never get good shots from the point, which is why they struggle to score on 5-5 plus they dont have a good puck mover that provides odd man rushes which gets more goals, take the rangers for example, they had all the great offensive players and still didnt get it done, why? because they dont have a deadly shot from point from their defensemen and they dont have good puck movers that provides more goals.if you look at the blackhawks, kings, bruins, they dont have great offensive players but they still won cups because they have puck movers and deadly shooters from their d.and yes goaltending matters but im talking about how important the offense comes from the d and not have the greatest offensive players in the world and still win cups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 @toughfighter83 The Kings and Bruins won because they had really good tough teams with STELLAR goaltending. The Hawks won because in spite of their mediocre goaltending, Phillys was worse. Could the Flyers use a shot from the point? Sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 30, 2013 Share Posted May 30, 2013 Could the Flyers use a shot from the point?Man if you could just find Braydon Coburn from 07-08 when he just played...9 goals 36pts...but biggest...+17!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Man if you could just find Braydon Coburn from 07-08 when he just played...9 goals 36pts...but biggest...+17!!!That's before his face got rearranged, right? He was never the same afterwards. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 That's before his face got rearranged, right?Yup... ...maybe he is still concussed???? :blink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 (edited) They don't have great offensive players?KaneSharpToewsLucicBergeronKrejciSeguinHossaKopitarBrownRichardsCarterI get these guys are not Crosby or Stamkos but there is enough firepower on both teams...Is having a booming shot from the point helpful... Yes, but I think you are under rating these teams in terms of offense Edited May 31, 2013 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doom88 Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Yup......maybe he is still concussed???? :blink:Would you really be surprised with the Flyers training/medical staff? Pronger had to force them to find and fix an issue at one point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 (edited) Gentlemen, it's a know fact that this team lacks a good faceoff winning center. You know like how a great football team is great because they have this: ***edit*** please note that this is a gem from the philly <dot> com days and in no way, shape, or form am I serious. I am having fun at George's expense. Edited May 31, 2013 by Bertmega Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Digityman Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 this is probably one of most biggest problems with the flyers because they never get good shots from the point, which is why they struggle to score on 5-5 plus they dont have a good puck mover that provides odd man rushes which gets more goals, take the rangers for example, they had all the great offensive players and still didnt get it done, why? because they dont have a deadly shot from point from their defensemen and they dont have good puck movers that provides more goals.if you look at the blackhawks, kings, bruins, they dont have great offensive players but they still won cups because they have puck movers and deadly shooters from their d.and yes goaltending matters but im talking about how important the offense comes from the d and not have the greatest offensive players in the world and still win cups.You have a point. That is something the Flyers have been missing since Pronger's absence. Specifically a right handed shot. I'm not sure that's why teams like the Kings/Bruins have won the cup recently. They are pretty complete teams starting from Goalie moving on out. That's something the Flyers haven't been able to say since, well....(still thinking) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bertmega Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 That's something the Flyers haven't been able to say since, well....(still thinking)Probably since Jimmy Carter was in office. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toughfighter83 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share Posted May 31, 2013 They don't have great offensive players?KaneSharpToewsLucicBergeronKrejciSeguinHossaKopitarBrownRichardsCarterI get these guys are not Crosby or Stamkos but there is enough firepower on both teams...Is having a booming shot from the point helpful... Yes, but I think you are under rating these teams in terms of offenseblackhawks,bruins,kings arent exactly lighting it up in the playoffs, i mean the pens have good offense because they are playing teams that have no so good defensive teams like the sens and lslanders but they are playing the bruins which are good defensively so great offenses dont mean automatic cup winners.offenses are overrated in the playoffs that's Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 (edited) blackhawks,bruins,kings arent exactly lighting it up in the playoffs, i mean the pens have good offense because they are playing teams that have no so good defensive teams like the sens and lslanders but they are playing the bruins which are good defensively so great offenses dont mean automatic cup winners.offenses are overrated in the playoffs that'sLast time I checked they were in the Western and Eastern Confernce Finals so they are outscoring their opponents thus far. I see where you are coming from the defensive side but these offenses are good - if not very good. The BH had the most points in the league so they have outscored opponents. Each of these Teams also have goalies that can steal a game and a series.Carter, Kane and Toews were the 5th, 6th and 7th leading goal scores in the regular season. Marchand and Hossa were in the top 40 as goal scorers as well... Boston, Chicago and Pitt pretty much fill out the top 10 goal leaders in the playoffs as well and Carter is 11th... A booming shot does not always translate into winning - see Weber as an example. It is a nice thing to have but does not translate into championships. Voynov is leading the playoffs as a defenseman in goals with 4 while Doughty only has 2. That is 6 goals in the playoffs from the defense for the Kings which I believe are the lowest scoring team in the playoffs in the EC and WC finals. The BH only have four goals total in the playoffs for thier defense... Conversely, the Pens and Bruins are getting much more production from their defense... Edited May 31, 2013 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 (edited) Specifically a right handed shot.Well i'm no hockey genius but one thing is for sure it helps to have a RH shot so when he recieves across the ice pass say from the other Dman he can one time it verse being a left hand shot having to stop it first before firing it on net....so it's a start!!!!!!!!Next season now we can concentrate on getting those shots "on net"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Edited May 31, 2013 by OccamsRazor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Well i'm no hockey genius but one thing is for sure it helps to have a RH shot so when he recieves across the ice pass say from the other Dman he can one time it verse being a left hand shot having to stop it first before firing it on net....so it's a start!!!!!!!!Next season now we can concentrate on getting those shots "on net"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!-- that means not letting Coburn take any shots... guy could not hit the broad side of a barn from the blue line! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OccamsRazor Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 guy could not hit the broad side of a barn from the blue line!Yep that was my point....hell i forget if it was on this thread or another but he is my whipping boy....because preinjury he could do that and i remeber all us Flyer fan being excited because we thought Homer has just fleeced the Thrashers with such a young talent recieved by just giving up an old defenseman....then he gets hurt and has never been quite the same. For instance like you said can't get a shot through on net if you held a gun to his head!!!!!!HOW IN THE HELL CAN YOU JUST STOP KNOWING HOW TO DO THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 @ OR... I was very excited about Coburn but he has become a big dissapointment. I have no idea what happened to his shot but with his skating ability he should be a more offensive threat. Honestly, the only player on the Team that can shoot is Mezz and he is as fragile as an egg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RonJeremy Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 We have plenty of big slower, defensive dmen, we need a guy with offensive skill. Pulock is the guy we need 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 (edited) We have plenty of big slower, defensive dmen, we need a guy with offensive skill. Pulock is the guy we needI would not have an issue w/ Pulock at all... Right handed shot and can rifle the puck. Decent size too that can skate incredibly well. Would be an outstanding pick IMO. I know a lot of scouts say that Pulock has reached his ceiling but any pick at 11 is not without risk. If Nurse fell to 11 I would take him... If not it would be a choice b/t Risto and Pulock. A lot of people think Risto's offensive game is not fully tapped yet either... It will be an interesting draft and picking at 11 is a tough postion this year. Edited May 31, 2013 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 It is a nice thing to have but does not translate into championshipsNo, it doesn't translate into cups or Ray Bourque wouldn't have taken 20 years or so to win a Cup. But man, it would be a damn nice thing to have.I'm on board with the idea you need a good shot from the point and a good puck carrying/moving defenseman. If I could only have one or the other, I *think* I would have to go with the puck carrying/moving defenseman.Here's the thing: The Kings are this far and they won the cup last year for one reason only: Jonathan Quick. Yes, he has a nice team supporting him, but they do not win without him. But they DO have some defensemen that meet toughfighter's criteria. It helps certainly, but it's not the trumping factor in their success.Boston. I suppose they meet TF's defensemen criteria. And in their case, I really think their goaltending has only been adequate. So maybe there's a better case for them. No offense to Latang, who fits the puck moving criteria and some offensive ability, but the Pens are where they are because of offense and competent goaltending. They faltered against the Isles and the only thing that changed when they improved, really, was the goalie.Chicago. I like their forward group and their goalie has played well. But in their case I'll buy the defenseman argument. The problem is that they have beaten two teams who also fit the defensmen criteria. What Minny didn't have was sound goaltending and not enough fire power up front. Detroit got competent goaltending (the last goal notwithstanding) and decent play up front. They just simply lost in the end. I think there's an argument to be made regarding Chicago's defensemen, but since I don't perceive a huge difference between them and the teams they beat I don't think it's a trumping argument.And I flat out reject the idea that Ottawa didn't have a good defense or good goaltending. They don't have any offense to speak of and were run over by a team that gets 2 goals just for showing up.Anyway, the cliff notes version is that the defenseman thing is good to have. I'd rather have it than not have it. And championship teams typically do have at least one such player. The fact the Flyers don't is one reason they weren't as competitive as they should have been. I do think it may be a required ingredient. I don't think it's the most important ingredient, however. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toughfighter83 Posted May 31, 2013 Author Share Posted May 31, 2013 actually this has been a problem for years even when clarke was the gm, they always tried to get more wingers, centers but never defensemen, if you are getting good offensive production from wingers, centers then at the deadline get an impact defensemen or two, it's the thing the flyers never do, they never try to get more defensemen, mez is not an impact defensemen even after the 2010 playoffs when homer got him, it was a dumb trade because it destroyed the core players, he should have got a defensemen without destroying the core. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 actually this has been a problem for years even when clarke was the gm, they always tried to get more wingers, centers but never defensemen, if you are getting good offensive production from wingers, centers then at the deadline get an impact defensemen or two, it's the thing the flyers never do, they never try to get more defensemen, mez is not an impact defensemen even after the 2010 playoffs when homer got him, it was a dumb trade because it destroyed the core players, he should have got a defensemen without destroying the core.I'm not trying to be an ass (I accomplish this quite well withOUT trying). I kind of understood your first post in this thread and thought it had some validity to it. But honestly, if you're going to get an impact defenseman (or two?!) without "destroying the core" it is extremely unlikely it would be at the deadline. Everyone else wants their defensemen too because, as you point out, a high end defenseman is a must-have.It's going to have to be in the offseason at free agency or developing them through the draft (when aziz reads this he'll point out that this is a crap shoot and he's right--but they ought to do it anyway). Because any trade involving the calibre of defensman you're talking about would take quite alot and would certainly gut other assets. If we're seriously talking about TWO you are really going to need a much deeper pool of prospects than the Flyers have.I do think Holmgren has made the attempt. He traded for Pronger without gutting the core (only gutted the future). He made very real attempts at Weber and Suter last year to no avail. Before Pronger, he traded for Timonen plus Hartnell while only surrendering a rental The defense hasn't worked out--clearly--but not for lack of trying.That said, I fully agree with you that it needs to be the priority going forward.(By the way, I've never been a Meszaros fan but I don't know what you're talking about with "it was a dumb trade because it destroyed the core players, he should have got a defensmen [sic] without destroying the core." We only traded a 2nd round pick for him) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 (edited) TF - as rux said it is not from a lack of trying and you are overstating the issue. Homer made the tade for future HOF defenseman and it did not work out b/c of a freak accident. He then went and tried to grab Weber and Suter!The game has changed drastically since the days of Clarke (the GM). Teams played more stay at home type systems on the defensive side of the puck. There were players that fit your bill (Coffey) but nowhere near the amount of offensive defensemen that we have today. the systems in play now changed the defensive system/style to a higher tempo and more offensive game - including the defensmen jumping into the play more.I am 100% onboard with getting a rifle shot and power play QB from the point but let's not overstate the fact that it is incredibly hard to get one of those players. We had one in Pronger... his storied hall of fame career is over and now we all hope we can snag one and get lucky in the draft.Last, based on your logic do you think if we had a LeTang, Weber, Suter (et al.) that we would actually compete for the cup this year? It might get us into the playoffs but having a single one of those players guarantee absolutely nothing in terms of a cup. Edited May 31, 2013 by murraycraven Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Meszaros cost the flyers a 2nd round pick. Not really destroying the core. Yeah, it caused cap issues, the only real casualty here was gagne.As for never getting impact dmen....come on. Pronger certainly counts. As does Timonen. Using a 4th overall pick on a dman. trying desperately to snag both Weber and Surer last summer. Hell, I think Hatcher counts. Not sure I can think of a team that has done more than the flyers in trying to stock their blue line. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 Meszaros cost the flyers a 2nd round pick. Not really destroying the core. Yeah, it caused cap issues, the only real casualty here was gagne.As for never getting impact dmen....come on. Pronger certainly counts. As does Timonen. Using a 4th overall pick on a dman. trying desperately to snag both Weber and Surer last summer. Hell, I think Hatcher counts. Not sure I can think of a team that has done more than the flyers in trying to stock their blue line.-- 100% agree aziz... It is not like drafting a HOF caliber defenseman is easy as 1-2-3. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted May 31, 2013 Share Posted May 31, 2013 -- 100% agree aziz... It is not like drafting a HOF caliber defenseman is easy as 1-2-3.Yeah. You have to at least be able to count to 4. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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