Cleary to the Flyers a done deal

[JackStraw]

Now THAT is a good criteria, (smart ass).

 

Seriously, though.  I don't have any problem with that question.   The answer changes depending upon what part we're talking about.   Signing him at all?  I think the point is to make the checking line tougher and harder to play against.  I don't anticipate Cleary typically playing on the same line as Talbot so I'm not terribly upset that they play similarly.  It brings added grit and moderate skill to both lines.  I didn't notice this being an issue myself, but maybe the thought was that Coots could use that kind of help on his wing.

 

If "what exactly is the point to a third year and a NTC?"  I'm not sure I can answer that.  I'm not sure there's even a good answer.  I don't know who else Cleary was talking to, but I haven't seen anything credible indicating he was.   If it was "3rd year, take it or leave it" from Cleary, I probably would have left it.   At the amount, I guess it's really not a travesty, but I'm wondering how effective he'll be in that 3rd year.  And the no trade clause actually comes pre-printed on all Flyer contracts, so that's the point to that.  It's actually part of the letterhead.

 

According to Meltzer the Flyers were bidding against a few other teams for Cleary. So apparently if they really wanted him they had to outbid. I just don't see why they really wanted him. I disagree with you about what Gags has left in the tank but that's not really my main objection. My main objection is, why overpay for a guy who is not, and is never going to be, that "missing piece"?

[ruxpin]

No, but he almost certainly would have been cheaper. As would have a younger guy like Laughton or McGinn. Thus my "what's the point" comment to rux. Cleary doesn't put them over the top of anything, so why blow your cap space on him? If you don't think the young guys are ready, stick with Gags at a bargain price rather than overpay for Cleary.

 

I don't think Gagne brings anywhere near the effect Cleary does.  HOWEVER, McGinn is an interesting comment.  I don't know that he plays with the edge Cleary does but I'd like to see him get the shot.  I'm simply guessing, but my impression last year was that Lavvy wasn't too thrilled with him.  I've never heard why, but I couldn't otherwise understand why he didn't get a better look.

 

Laughton I can simply explain by saying he's a center whereas they were looking to address something at wing.  (also, Cleary was available and you know Holmgren can't simply browse a catalog without getting the credit card out).

[ruxpin]

According to Meltzer the Flyers were bidding against a few other teams for Cleary. So apparently if they really wanted him they had to outbid. I just don't see why they really wanted him. I disagree with you about what Gags has left in the tank but that's not really my main objection. My main objection is, why overpay for a guy who is not, and is never going to be, that "missing piece"?

I don't know.  It's actually a pay cut from what he was making, so the amount is probably in line with the other teams.  The overpay was probably the third year.

 

Again, I'm not interested in the missing piece thing.  You're not getting any "missing piece" for only $2.85M    

 

I like your McGinn thing, but the Gagne thing is a non-issue for me.  I think he's an upgrade over Gagne.

[JackStraw]

I like your McGinn thing, but the Gagne thing is a non-issue for me.  I think he's an upgrade over Gagne

 

It's not really about Cleary vs Gagne for me, I just mention Gagne because he represents more or less the (probably cheaper) status quo to me. It really is about "what's the point" for me, I just don't see it. McGinn looked good in the limited time he had last year and it seems like he deserves a longer look. So McGinn (or Laughton if they think he can play wing, wouldn't be the first time they shuffled pieces) over Gagne would have made sense to me. Cleary doesn't.

[JackStraw]

(also, Cleary was available and you know Holmgren can't simply browse a catalog without getting the credit card out).

 

This unfortunately, is probably hitting the nail on the head. Very typical Flyers "let's make a move for the sake of making a move" move.

Edited September 10, 2013 by JackStraw

[Green Man]

I don't know.  It's actually a pay cut from what he was making, so the amount is probably in line with the other teams.  The overpay was probably the third year.

 

Again, I'm not interested in the missing piece thing.  You're not getting any "missing piece" for only $2.85M    

 

I like your McGinn thing, but the Gagne thing is a non-issue for me.  I think he's an upgrade over Gagne.

Its not even close that this is an upgrade over Gagne.   Gagne is less versatile, more injury prone and would be a true waste of roster space for anyone looking to have an argument about giving a younger guy a chance.  Gagne is the exact type of player you dispose of to give that younger guy a chance. 

 

Dan Cleary brings an edge and intensity the team will feed off of, and he's a proven clutch player.  He is a tone setter and another solid leader to add to the locker room along with Streit and Vinny.   

 

I'll take a proven winner like Cleary everyday over an old stiff like Gagne.  

[ruxpin]

It's not really about Cleary vs Gagne for me, I just mention Gagne because he represents more or less the (probably cheaper) status quo to me. It really is about "what's the point" for me, I just don't see it. McGinn looked good in the limited time he had last year and it seems like he deserves a longer look. So McGinn (or Laughton if they think he can play wing, wouldn't be the first time they shuffled pieces) over Gagne would have made sense to me. Cleary doesn't.

 

I really can't argue with the McGinn thing.  It would have been cheaper and would have allowed a kid to prove he could (or couldn't) progress.   I'm not *sure* he brings the same set that Cleary does, but maybe he brings other ones that would have worked as well.  Dunno.

 

I also go back to the "Lavvy seemed to not have any faith in him" thing.  I wouldn't begin to know why and maybe I'm imagining that, but he didn't seem to want to stick with him last year.  Personally, I thought he looked good when he was up.

[Green Man]

This unfortunately, is probably hitting the nail on the head. Very typical Flyers "let's make a move for the sake of making a move" move.

 

No, that was the Vinny move!

[JackStraw]

Here is what a Wings fan on hfboards posted in the Flyers thread about Cleary. Most of the other Wings fans who have offered an opinion are saying basically the same thing:

 

"Anyway, wow. I hope for your sake that Cleary recovers. He was the most frustrating Red Wing to watch last season. He's a warrior, but his body is broken, and his playoff numbers are misleading; only one of the goals was legitimate (the rest bounced off of his body) and I think every single one of his assists was secondary. And these came along with his slow skating, slow puckmoving, and inexplicable boneheadedness."

[ruxpin]

This unfortunately, is probably hitting the nail on the head. Very typical Flyers "let's make a move for the sake of making a move" move.

 

Yep.  I actually thought this way about the VL signing, too.   He was the shiniest toy in the store so had to have it whether we needed it or not.  And whether the price tag was too much or not.  Doesn't matter; it's Daddy Ed's credit card.

 

VL is obviously (arguably?) better than Cleary but value vs. cost, it's kind of a relevant story.

[mojo1917]

Two years ago i'm probably pretty happy about Cleary being signed for 3 years...if you follow.  Like everyone else i'm not wild about the thought of 37 year old Cleary fetching popcorn for the boys in the press box more than he dresses.  

 

I am wondering if there is a plan in place to ship some pieces to St Louis for Peitrangelo in some kind of sign and trade deal.  

Wishful thinking i know, but i don't see how the salary cap math works with this signing and Metzaros and LTIR... i think something else could be up.

 

Who's the next great but washed up defenseman ?  

[ruxpin]

No, that was the Vinny move!

 

You and I both went to the same place at the same time.

[JackStraw]

No, that was the Vinny move!

 

Well, yeah... that too. Thing is, I was pretty happy with the offseason up to the Vinnie signing. I guess Homer had to make a few moves to piss me off.

[JackStraw]

Well, now this is interesting:

 

"General manager Paul Holmgren confirmed on Tuesday that Dan Cleary will be at the Flyers' camp Thursday on a tryout contract. However, Holmgren said no deal was in place, as was reported by the Detroit Free Press. "There are no promises. It's just like the Hal Gill (contract)," he said."

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/flyers/Report-Cleary-headed-to-Flyers.html

 

So maybe Homer isn't completely crazy after all...

Edited September 10, 2013 by JackStraw

[hf101]

"General manager Paul Holmgren confirmed on Tuesday that Dan Cleary will be at the Flyers' camp Thursday on a tryout contract. However, Holmgren said no deal was in place, as was reported by the Detroit Free Press. "There are no promises. It's just like the Hal Gill (contract)," he said."

 

except that Gagne didn't receive a tryout contract which we all expected...... If they really wanted to determine which player gets the job they should have to compete for it..... but that isn't the case to the best of my knowledge.  

 

Thus that statement was just smoke, no lies as there is no deal in place until it is in place after Pronger goes on LTIR.

[JackStraw]

except that Gagne didn't receive a tryout contract which we all expected...... If they really wanted to determine which player gets the job they should have to compete for it..... but that isn't the case to the best of my knowledge.  

 

Thus that statement was just smoke, no lies as there is no deal in place until it is in place after Pronger goes on LTIR.

 

Very good possibility that you're correct, but I at least have to hope for something...

[hf101]

Is he stacking up on forward depth to pull a deal to get a defenseman?

 

Possibly, if you look at roster players for what he could trade (by those not on a NTC ) Read is a strong possibility as he is a FA next year.  However, that is a move I think we would see later on in the season if the Flyers were out of the playoff picture.   I don't see them trading Schenn or Couturier any time soon.  He could though package a d-man and a forward prospect for a better d-man.  Which is more along the thinking of traditional Flyer mentality.

 

I really don't think signing Cleary implicates a trade.  Holmgren is more about stocking up veteran players for depth, keeping the younger players in the AHL for call-up depth.

[OH1FlyersFan]

But I don't think the quote above should be the criteria by which you decide to make moves.  It's shouldn't be about the "one missing piece" for a team that didn't even make the playoffs.  There are very few "one missing piece" anyway, and even then you still have to have the rest of the puzzle.

 

I totally agree, Rux.  That's not how I believe we should win a Cup either.  But I often think that's what Flyers management believe though - at least as evidenced by past acquisitions, by their past actions.  I was assuming that's what they were maybe/perhaps/probably thinking in this case.

[OH1FlyersFan]

According to many Wings fans (and some others) Cleary's style of play has taken its toll on him. His knees are bad and he's lost a lot of his speed. Since the surgery to have that mass removed from his neck, Gagne hasn't had any health problems that I'm aware of. He's lost a step but he still has good wheels and way more talent than Cleary ever had. Both are defensively responsible. But Gags can still be serviceable on the top two lines if need be, and he can play the PP. More value for (probably) less money.

 

Cleary is probably a better fit as a third line grinder, but he's not going to make the Flyers a contender and by the time they are contenders he'll be done.

Thanks Jack!  Helpful.

[ruxpin]

I was assuming that's what they were maybe/perhaps/probably thinking in this case.

 

Oh, okay.  Fair enough.

 

On the other hand, if they ARE thinking that then we have bigger problems than previously thought.

[pilldoc]

Well, now this is interesting:

 

"General manager Paul Holmgren confirmed on Tuesday that Dan Cleary will be at the Flyers' camp Thursday on a tryout contract. However, Holmgren said no deal was in place, as was reported by the Detroit Free Press. "There are no promises. It's just like the Hal Gill (contract)," he said."

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/flyers/Report-Cleary-headed-to-Flyers.html

 

So maybe Homer isn't completely crazy after all...

Now I can breath a little bit better. ...... still would prefer Gagne especially if Clary's health is in question.

Edited September 10, 2013 by pilldoc

[King Knut]

Did we just say goodbye to gagne again?

Dan told the Free Press right after midnight he's going to Philly. The rumored 3 year deal is way to long, not sure of the cap hit, but this is a solid hockey move. We just became way tougher to play against.

http://www.freep.com/article/20130910/SPORTS05/309100034/detroit-red-wings-daniel-cleary-philadelphia-flyers

[jammer2]

Well, now this is interesting:

 

"General manager Paul Holmgren confirmed on Tuesday that Dan Cleary will be at the Flyers' camp Thursday on a tryout contract. However, Holmgren said no deal was in place, as was reported by the Detroit Free Press. "There are no promises. It's just like the Hal Gill (contract)," he said."

 

http://www.philly.com/philly/blogs/sports/flyers/Report-Cleary-headed-to-Flyers.html

 

So maybe Homer isn't completely crazy after all...

 

I also think this is all smoke and mirrors. Why would Cleary accept such a proposition when there are 4 teams vying for his services?  If that was the case, I think he would have stuck with the Wings. He was guaranteed something that Homer can't follow through on yet ie the Pronger LTIR money.

[aziz]

He can play the PK and will be a nice addition to a line w/ Cooter and Read. Hey, playing along with those two he might score more than he did in Detroit.

.

well, if playing with datsyuk didn't help, I doubt couturier and read will.

really, he is an anonymous mid roster player. he is brave but not fearless, strong but not tough, defensively aware but not a specialist, offensively capable but not notable, a good soldier but no leader... he is what an utterly average nhler looks like. and that's fine, the third line needs third liners. kinda figured the flyers had plenty of them, don't really see the point to the signing, but... really, it's a "meh" kind of thing all around. though three years and a NTC seems brow-raising-worthy.

[jammer2]

  I think when you look at this Cleary signing, you have to take into account Homer's mindset. His back is to the wall, he missed the playoffs in a town that does not accept that easily. Not only does Homer have to make the playoffs to save his job, they have to make a nice run, ie win at least one round and make an epic struggle out of the the next round. Any first round exit, or rolling over and playing dead in the second round means his tenure is done.

 

 This whole off season is not what is about what is best for the Flyers, it's about what can save Homer's job. Ed allows it to happen because it gives the Flyers the best chance of winning right now. That is why Streit, Vinny, and Cleary were added without any regard for the end of the contracts and how they might negatively effect the franchise. Either Homer will accomplish his goal, make the conference finals and be set up for one last run the following year, OR he will be fired, and somebody else will be left to clean up the mess and the cap consequences of giving all 3 of these guys more term and money than they deserved. At least, that's the way I see it.

 

 I've been saying for years, I HATE giving out all the roster spots before training camp even opens. It's very frustrating. The kids who play fantastic deserve a shot at making it out of camp. That part sucks. I do think that part of this is a guard against injuries though, the kids that shine, they will get their chances through injuries....it happens every year. If history is any indicator, the Flyers are jinxed when it comes to injuries, so much so, that injuries seem inevitable. This may be Homers way of guarding against that historical fact.

 

 I love what Cleary brings, I don't like Homer going all in and putting this franchise (once again) in win now mode, with no eye to the future. Once again, he has broken the cardinal sin, going all in WITHOUT A PROVEN GOALIE!!!!