Gagne not happy with Flyers (article)

[ruxpin]

i'm gonna have to claim a half grunch here on this thread. i only got about half way through before the same ole theme kept repeating itself. the flyers are apparently deemed 'classless' here in this thread. 
 
i disagree. it IS a business and teams are in it to put the best team possible on the ice. that will seem cut throat if they're doing it right. if they're not... everyone's got fuzzy happy feelings ... and that's just great. especially if they can find a way to win as well. gagne should be smart enough to know that if there is no deal on paper, than there is nothing. if he really did shy away from negotiating with other teams, then he was negligent to himself. 

 

Yep.  I really don't completely understand the offense here.  Keep reading the thread, though, because you'll find canoli and I think similarly.

[canoli]

Keep reading the thread, though, because you'll find canoli and I think similarly.

 

which doesn't happen all that often lol.

 

Seriously thanks for the "very well said."  You deserve the credit though, your explanation of the "hinting" and how it should've been interpreted by Gagne and Suave inspired me.

 

true story!

[radoran]

i cannot blame the flyers for any part of this gagne situation, but i can find a lot of blame for gags himself. he's a good player, i would have liked to have seen him back. it's unfortunate, but the flyers just don't see him in their plans. most likely because they want to see what Laughton can do. 

 

The only things I can "fault" the Flyers for are: not being up front with Gagne, signing Cleary without even a phone call (not that it is "required" but for a guy who has given a lot for the org would have gone a long way) and not "closing the door" until last Monday.

 

I fault Gagne for taking Holmgren at his "hint" and his agent for not doing his freaking job to protect his client.

 

The latter two being the much more egregious errors in judgement.

 

I'm, frankly, surprised at the number of people who seem to be surprised by how the team acted.

[jammer2]

  Well then, if Gagne is the most at fault, and the timeline was not "off" ....then watch your future Flyers develop, cheer them on, revel in their accomplishments....BUT always have in the back of your mind that one day, the guy you cheered for, he will be unceremoniously dumped and treated like crap when his usefulness is complete. 

 

  You know what I really respect, the Habs, how they cherish their stars, how they pass the torch, how one generation builds on the other, to teach it greatness and what it means to be a Hab.

 

 You know what we are, we are like the Leafs. They horribly disrespected their greats. The great Dave Keon hates them to this day. Lanny McDonald, thanks for the run, off you go. Sittler...traded for a scrub to get some crappy vaule for him after his usefulness was completed. Salming, off to the hated Wings you go.

 

 Sound familiar, yeah, it should, Barber, Lindros, Gagne. Slowly but surely we are eroding the base on which to pass the torch. What greats will teach the young Flyers what "Flyer hockey" is all about? Yeah, we have Clarkie there, one of the most morally corrupt guys (as much as I love the guy, it's so true) in recent hockey history.

 

 Look past a lifetime Flyer like Gagne being disrespected, but don't complain when you take the kids to the rink and less than half of the vets show up for the pre-game ceremony. Maybe you can keep the games on tape, and show your children "what Flyer hockey is" cause the guys that lived it, a lot of them will not come to the rink.

 

 Disrespecting your former stars corrodes the base from which you build. For those of you that think it's a business, enjoy your present and DVR the past, cause that's all you will have.

 

 I didn't even want Gagne brought back, it was not the right move, I just wanted him to be shown some basic decorum and human decency and some acknowledgement of what he means/meant to this franchise, guess that was to much to ask....shame, shame, shame.
 

[Flyskippy]

I'm glad I don't have to do business with the Flyers.

That's just it. It's not personal -- it's business. "Leave the Gagne, take the cannoli."

[mojo1917]

@Flyskippy

 

In my line of work we say "you're only as good as your last dogfood commercial" , so  I get that... I don't ever like doing business like that though. I am a partner in a small business and we each hate having to execute the "just business" of running our shop because there's a human face to the unpleasant reality that needs attending to. I will still do what is necessary but it feels shitty to cut someone loose or sever a relationship, even a bad one.

 

I don't appreciate the cutthroat mentality when it comes to affecting other people's liveihoods.  

[ruxpin]

@Flyskippy

 

In my line of work we say "you're only as good as your last dogfood commercial" , so  I get that... I don't ever like doing business like that though. I am a partner in a small business and we each hate having to execute the "just business" of running our shop because there's a human face to the unpleasant reality that needs attending to. I will still do what is necessary but it feels ****** to cut someone loose or sever a relationship, even a bad one.

 

I don't appreciate the cutthroat mentality when it comes to affecting other people's liveihoods.  

 

I felt like that in the small business I ran.   When I did have to leave a person go, I always struggled with "buyers remorse" thinking maybe I didn't train them well enough or retrain them or whatever.   

[ruxpin]

But I still don't get the "shame" people are talking about.

 

Seriously, he was a UFA.  He could have talked to other teams; he chose not to.   If the Flyers had any interest whatsoever in signing him, they'd have done it well before now.  

 

How was he even badly treated?   They brought him back.  He got his return trip to Flyerville.  We gave up a 4th rounder for him (for whatever THAT's worth).  

 

The "oh poor Gagne" is really starting to bother me.  Why poor Gagne?   He wasn't offered anything.  I wouldn't have offered him anything either.   Every player at the end of a contract knows there's a possibility he won't be back.  Fans--fans who have been around longer than a season or two--should know there's that possibility.  If fans or Gagne wanted a Gagne appreciation moment, they had opportunity.   There may even be one in the future sometime.

 

This is simply an organization not bringing someone back.   All we know is Gagne thinks there was a HINT.   Nothing more.   Let's all get a box of Kleenex, take a moment, and move on.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  Read all of post #79, it's about passing the torch, respecting past greats. Something this franchise knows nothing about.

[ruxpin]

watch your future Flyers develop, cheer them on, revel in their accomplishments....BUT always have in the back of your mind that one day, the guy you cheered for, he will be unceremoniously dumped and treated like crap when his usefulness is complete

 

Yes.  Isn't this the way it has always been, though?

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin  Read all of post #79, it's about passing the torch, respecting past greats. Something this franchise knows nothing about.

 

I read it.  I honestly don't get it.  And I really don't get all warm and fuzzy with the Habs example:  they've stunk for nearly two decades (no more or less than the Flyers, but the Flyers at least have a couple finals to show for it)

[jammer2]

Yes.  Isn't this the way it has always been, though?

 

  Yeah, it's also why the Flyers will be a mickey mouse operation, who refuses to either acknowledge or repair sins of the past.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  If you are not moved when one frail Stanley Cup champ passes that torch to another even older Champ/Captain, I don't know what to tell you. Those Greats are LIFETIME greats, who pass the torch. The 2 decades of crap hockey mean nothing in the long run, those championships were built on talent and RESPECT. The Flyers are a baby franchise, but you start with RESPECTING THE GREATS, that gives you the foundation to build on. For the players and the fan base, who spend their whole lives cheering for the team. RESPECT the MEMORIES of the fan base also. If you lose that, you lose the foundation to build from.

[ruxpin]

  Yeah, it's also why the Flyers will be a mickey mouse operation, who refuses to either acknowledge or repair sins of the past.

 

 

Not that I'm above it, but I'm not trying to be an unfeeling jerk here.

 

What were they supposed to do?  Erect a statue?  Have a parade?  Send him a Cracker Barrel coupon?

 

They had a player who was/is a UFA.

 

All we have is that they hinted that they might have interest in him.   We have nothing from any camp that says he was told not to talk to anyone else.

 

We have a summer of signings and no cap space.

 

He's an aging vet that really doesn't serve any particular role other than filling a slot if there's some deficiency due to injury.

 

From the Flyers point of view, if he's still around and is needed, maybe they'll give him a call.   

 

I'm sorry, but I don't see where this even falls into "out of the ordinary."  You're not new here; you know players come and go.  Yeah he was drafted by and came up with the Flyers, but he's on his second stint and only a fraction of a season at that.   I really don't get the horror here.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin  If you are not moved when one frail Stanley Cup champ passes that torch to another even older Champ/Captain, I don't know what to tell you. Those Greats are LIFETIME greats, who pass the torch. The 2 decades of crap hockey mean nothing in the long run, those championships were built on talent and RESPECT. The Flyers are a baby franchise, but you start with RESPECTING THE GREATS, that gives you the foundation to build on. For the players and the fan base, who spend their whole lives cheering for the team. RESPECT the MEMORIES of the fan base also. If you lose that, you lose the foundation to build from.

 

We respect the greats.  We have statues to people that happened to score a goal at the right time.  We have retired sweaters.  We have banners.  We have Joe Watson foam #1 night.  The problem is that it's been 38 years with no one to pass a torch TO.   And there was no one before that because, as you say, we're a relative baby franchise.

 

It's not because of how people are or aren't treated.  It's because there's been no occasion to pass anything to nor from.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  Be honest, tell him, you should go look for a different team, or our interest is only modest.

 

 Your theory follows the belief that Gagne was a baffon who was not capable of taking care of his family or best interest, I say he was promised things that were not followed through on, taking into account our franchise and this managment group, which one sounds more accurate?

 

 Be up front, not a corporate suit. I say again, the timeline does not add up. Be honest with the players who have dedicated most of their adult lives to the Flyers. Basically, our crest stands for in with the new and out with the old. The Habs crest, that means RESPECT and LOYALTY.

[jammer2]

We respect the greats.  We have statues to people that happened to score a goal at the right time.  We have retired sweaters.  We have banners.  We have Joe Watson foam #1 night.  The problem is that it's been 38 years with no one to pass a torch TO.   And there was no one before that because, as you say, we're a relative baby franchise.

 

It's not because of how people are or aren't treated.  It's because there's been no occasion to pass anything to nor from.

 

 

 You gotta start somewhere, and respecting the greats, that is an awesome place to start. The Habs captains, all of the living ones, are there to pass the torch, ALL OF THEM. I wonder why that is?

[ruxpin]

 Your theory follows the belief that Gagne was a baffon who was not capable of taking care of his family or best interest, I say he was promised things that were not followed through on, taking into account our franchise and this managment group, which one sounds more accurate?

 

Of the two choices, the one in bold.

 

Door number three is most likely:   Gagne has NO OPTIONS (now or all summer) and is now whining because he's out in the cold.  The bold face above next most likely.

 

Because the timeline is fairly simple and fairly clear, IMO.  I've stated the timeline before so I won't beat the hell out of it by repeating it.

[ruxpin]

The Habs captains, all of the living ones, are there to pass the torch, ALL OF THEM. I wonder why that is?

 

Because most of them are French Canadien.  What the hell else are they going to do with their time?

[SwedeFly]

@ruxpin

To me it's like cheating on your girlfriend for some other chick who, in turn, is cheating on you .

If the goal is just to attempt to get laid then 'job well done' Homer.

Still though, I always thought the Flyers were a littler classier than this.

[brelic]

We have statues to people

The best statue is not even a real person

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  Part of the problem is the Bobby Clarke, the person, not the player. He was so essential to the early success of the franchise, we took the person on for life, and that was a mistake. He is disrespectful, and I'm not going by what I read, I've seen it first hand. He is arrogant and even spiteful to a young fan seeking a autograph? Sure, Eric just started coming back around, and I think there was faults on both sides, but Clarke's spiteful persona did not help one little bit. We will have to start this process over, until Ed dies and Clarke is removed from the org, the respect that is required will never be there.

 

 Also, was talking in terms of generalities, I would venture to guess people can research stuff and find instances where the Habs treated so and so badly, but it was not widespread. Respect and honour the greats, don't string them along as an emergency fall back option.

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin

To me it's like cheating on your girlfriend for some other chick who, in turn, is cheating on you .

If the goal is just to attempt to get laid then 'job well done' Homer.

Still though, I always thought the Flyers were a littler classier than this.

 

A little classier than to NOT offer someone a contract?

 

According to Gagne, the Flyers HINTED (whatever that means).

According to the Flyers, nothing was ever offered or actually discussed.

 

Of the two, we can be CERTAIN the Flyers did hint

 

HINT #1:  After buying out Briere (who actually had a SIGNED contract) and Bryz (same, but whatever) they immediately signed VL

HINT #2:  Flyers signed Streit

HINT #3:  Flyers signed Emery

HINT #4:  (MOST IMPORTANT)   Gagne still not offered a contract

HINT #5:  Calendar turned to August:  Gagne still not offered a contract

HINT #6:  Calendar turned to September:  Gagne still not offered a contract

HINT #7:  Hal Gill offered tryout contract.  Gagne still not offered a contract

HINT #8:  Cleary offered something (who knows what?).  Gagne STILL not offered a contract

 

What constitutes a hint that doesn't involve a sledge hammer over the head???

 

I have yet to understand where "classy" actually even enters the equation.  Yeah, he was a flyer draftee and played something like 9 years.  But he was gone for three and returned for a month or so at the end of a contract.  I just think the "classy" thing is being WAY overblown.

[jammer2]

@ruxpin  Unless Gagne was told his contract would come out of the LTIR money, right?

[ruxpin]

@ruxpin  Part of the problem is the Bobby Clarke, the person, not the player. He was so essential to the early success of the franchise, we took the person on for life, and that was a mistake. He is disrespectful, and I'm not going by what I read, I've seen it first hand. He is arrogant and even spiteful to a young fan seeking a autograph? Sure, Eric just started coming back around, and I think there was faults on both sides, but Clarke's spiteful persona did not help one little bit. We will have to start this process over, until Ed dies and Clarke is removed from the org, the respect that is required will never be there.

 

 Also, was talking in terms of generalities, I would venture to guess people can research stuff and find instances where the Habs treated so and so badly, but it was not widespread. Respect and honour the greats, don't string them along as an emergency fall back option.

 

I had been hoping to shoot back to you about an occasion where the Habs treated so and so badly.  I couldn't begin to come up with one off the top of my head.  The only thing that popped in there was Patrick Roy, but that's such a horrible example that I only mention it to say "yeah, all I could come up with was a HORRIBLE example."   I tried Googling "People screwed by the Canadiens."   All i got was "Canadiens fans."

 

Clarke IS an ass.  

 

I told this story before, but I will again.  I was roughly 12 years old, and the current Flyers of the time played our local school teachers in a charity softball game.  The "current" flyers on the softball team were Rick MacLeish (although he had just been traded), Bob Kelly, Bob Clarke, and others although I don't remember some of the others at the moment.  

 

Anyway, after the game, we were allowed to stand behind the chain-link fence behind the third base dugout and get autographs (from the players, not the teachers).  I got a bunch, but the crowd and the players were dispersing and I realized I hadn't gotten Clarke's yet!   I saw him walking the opposite way across second base toward right field with this equipment bag.    So I raced off after him, yelling "Bobby! Bobby!" all the way.  He turned and I finally caught him in shallow right field, and asked, "Can I have your autograph?"  

 

He took the paper and pen I had and while scrawling his signature, he asked in a really gruff voice, "How come you kids around here don't say 'please' and 'thank you?'"    Nothing wrong with the question, I suppose, although the answer should be obvious:  because you're larger than life and some of us just ran across a field to get to you."    I made sure to say "thank you" when he handed it back.   But it's something I remember clear as day some 30+ years later.

 

He's not an ass based on that, but your "young fan seeking an autograph" made me think of it.

 

But yeah, I really can't argue with your assessment of Clarke, the person.   You could lay blame at the feet of both camps on the Lindros thing, but Clarke looked like a complete imbecile.  The Roger Neilson thing was just simply ugly.  There was no excusing that.  I know people still don't like the choking thing, but he really could have stood behind Terry Murray a bit more than he did.   You could cite several more, but those were probably the worst of it.