Your opinion of fighting

[JR Ewing]

I've always enjoyed the spectacle of a good fight, but it's mostly on its way out of the game. Probably for the better, overall, but either way it will be gone to a large extent, imo.

 

NHL calibre players getting heated and into a scrap? Will always be around to some extent.

Goons going at it? I personally never understood wasting roster space for players that can't take or make a pass, but I think a lot of will go.

[yave1964]

It absolutely kills that haters that, aside from Goddard leaving the bench (which can actually be justified in this case), it was the Isles who were completely in the wrong.

 

In keeping with the topic, all of that fighting sure did a lot of good. Oh wait - maybe opposing netminders will think twice before challenging Brent Johnson or going after the opposing goaling when Eric Goddard is on the bench.

 

Come to think of it, isn't it ironic that the Isles waited until Goddard was on the bench before acting like petulant children?

 

Back on topic again - fighting is pointless.

The Isles WERE completely in the wrong. But it was also entertaining.

[B21]

Okay look, this was not a rip of your Penguins it would not have mattered to me who the two teams were, it was must watch TV and did not disappoint. There were no bonus points because it was Pittsburgh. I even had the game on two weeks before when Johnson beat Dipeitro and was entertained by that.

  The fact that the Isles signed the worst felons in the New York State Penal system who could stand on skates without falling over and gave them bike chains instead of hockey sticks was fun to me. Most of the times these type of games get big billing and do not live up to the hype, this one did and I loved it. Remove the chip dude, it was not a crack on your precious Penguins.

 

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

Bad blood spilling over because of an affront in a previous game when Dipetrio got his jaw jacked against the Penguins and the next game the Isles brought in every goon in the organization and simply leveled the Penguins i loved it.

 

I was a big fan of the game where the Isles beat down the Penguins into submission.

 

Chip, eh? Me thinks not.

 

You still haven't answered my on-topic question....please explain how Johnston beating DiPietro in a fight that DiPietro challenged him to requires "policing"?  You said yourself about the Isles/Pens incident, "Frankly I had no problem with the teams policing it."  You called it an "affront".  So explain why the Johnson/DiPietro fight needed to be "policed" the next time the two teams met.  Are you arguing Johnson should have gone easy on him? That he should have known DiPietro would be felled with a single punch?  Should Johnson have turtled when challenged by DiPietro? Let me gues - it was because Johnson and Fleury were seen smiling...err hysterically laughing falling all over themselves in pure joy....after the fight? Let's hear it.

[yave1964]

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.

 

Bad blood spilling over because of an affront in a previous game when Dipetrio got his jaw jacked against the Penguins and the next game the Isles brought in every goon in the organization and simply leveled the Penguins i loved it.

 

I was a big fan of the game where the Isles beat down the Penguins into submission.

 

Chip, eh? Me thinks not.

 

You still haven't answered my on-topic question....please explain how Johnston beating DiPietro in a fight that DiPietro challenged him to requires "policing"?  You said yourself about the Isles/Pens incident, "Frankly I had no problem with the teams policing it."  You called it an "affront".  So explain why the Johnson/DiPietro fight needed to be "policed" the next time the two teams met.  Are you arguing Johnson should have gone easy on him? That he should have known DiPietro would be felled with a single punch?  Should Johnson have turtled when challenged by DiPietro? Let me gues - it was because Johnson and Fleury were seen smiling...err hysterically laughing falling all over themselves in pure joy....after the fight? Let's hear it.

  Johnson and the flower were laughing hysterically on the bench after the game. The quotes were entertaining and fired up the Isles. In a million years I do not believe the Penguins thought the Isles would react the way they did.  Was it wrong? You betcha. Were the Islanders the main culprit? Of course. But it was fun to watch and if it had been Dipietro knocking out Johnson and the Penguins bringing up every goon in the organization and beating the Islanders into submission it would have been every bit enjoyable. I like those type of non scripted fights.

  The Penguins are not my least favorite team in the league, hell they might not even be in the bottom ten. But you are helping them move on down the list pal.

[Commander Clueless]

Okay look, this was not a rip of your Penguins it would not have mattered to me who the two teams were, it was must watch TV and did not disappoint. There were no bonus points because it was Pittsburgh. I even had the game on two weeks before when Johnson beat Dipeitro and was entertained by that.

  The fact that the Isles signed the worst felons in the New York State Penal system who could stand on skates without falling over and gave them bike chains instead of hockey sticks was fun to me. Most of the times these type of games get big billing and do not live up to the hype, this one did and I loved it. Remove the chip dude, it was not a crack on your precious Penguins.

 

Let's be honest, it's bonus points for beating up the Penguins. 

 

Nobody likes a powerhouse.

 

I think the major point here is that watching a game where the teams hate each other and emotions run high is much more entertaining than your run of the mill game. That's why the intensity of a playoff series is exciting. Regardless of who is in the right or the wrong (because most of the time, both teams share in the wrong).

Edited March 11, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[yave1964]

Let's be honest, it's bonus points for beating up the Penguins. 

 

Nobody likes a powerhouse.

 

I think the major point here is that watching a game where the teams hate each other and emotions run high is much more entertaining than your run of the mill game. That's why the intensity of a playoff series is exciting. Regardless of who is in the right or the wrong (because most of the time, both teams share in the wrong).

what you said

[yave1964]

Much to @B21 's point, the only Pen that took a beat down was Tangradi. He was sucker punched by Gillies for a clean body check and took a gloves off closed fist to his face while still holding his stick following the play. That have him a concussion and Gillies kept on him. Nobody else got "beat down" unless you count Haley at the end.

That was an embarrassment to the NHL. The Isles should've (and many were) been ashamed of themselves.

  I enjoyed the game no matter who the two teams were Polaris, truthfully the fact that it had only been a few years since our two teams had met in the finals two years in a row did not hurt anything.

  The game was everything you said it was. It was an embarrassment but it was a lot of fun to watch. Gotta admit I wouldn't have liked it as much if it had been my team on the other end though. Of course the Wings are too vanilla to fight, one of my few frustrations I have had with them over the years.

BTW you use Kronwall as an example a lot, do you realize he hasn't been hitting like that since Lidstrom retired and he was forced up into the top pairing?

[flyerrod]

@B21

Well glad you just ignored the whole point about escalation. The point was (and I still don't recall which OTT player it was) got away with a seriously dirty hit and all of a sudden rules are off. If the ref had called a penalty or if the actual offender had stayed on the ice to face the music, MaCammond is not eating mush for the next 3 weeks. That was the point.  You still come charging to the rescue anytime ANYONE has issues with a Pen....go figure. And FYI your boy Orpick is no angel as you would like everyone to believe......You could safely change your avatar to Homer Simpson in a Pens jersey, I think it would be rather fitting.

[flyerrod]

BTW you use Kronwall as an example a lot, do you realize he hasn't been hitting like that since Lidstrom retired and he was forced up into the top pairing?

 

Although that is true enough this year, Kronwall has built up quite a supply of hits over the years that he never answered for against many teams. I used him as an example  for his lack of fighting after those hits much as I could choose 80 percent of the Pens (unless it is a non fighter or a low hanging testicle of their opponent).

[Polaris922]

I enjoyed the game no matter who the two teams were Polaris, truthfully the fact that it had only been a few years since our two teams had met in the finals two years in a row did not hurt anything.

The game was everything you said it was. It was an embarrassment but it was a lot of fun to watch. Gotta admit I wouldn't have liked it as much if it had been my team on the other end though. Of course the Wings are too vanilla to fight, one of my few frustrations I have had with them over the years.

BTW you use Kronwall as an example a lot, do you realize he hasn't been hitting like that since Lidstrom retired and he was forced up into the top pairing?

I'll have to take your word for it as I don't get to see many Wings games. I honestly don't like the guy because of how he hits, not because he hits, if that makes any sense. But if you say he's toned that down then kudos to him. I'll try to watch next game I see.

[Polaris922]

@B21

Well glad you just ignored the whole point about escalation. The point was (and I still don't recall which OTT player it was) got away with a seriously dirty hit and all of a sudden rules are off. If the ref had called a penalty or if the actual offender had stayed on the ice to face the music, MaCammond is not eating mush for the next 3 weeks. That was the point. You still come charging to the rescue anytime ANYONE has issues with a Pen....go figure. And FYI your boy Orpick is no angel as you would like everyone to believe......You could safely change your avatar to Homer Simpson in a Pens jersey, I think it would be rather fitting.

Actually it was me defending Orpik. And I welcome your dirty hits and cheap shots compilation on him any time you desire. One of the cleanest heavy hitters in the game. That's not homerism, thems the facts.

[flyerrod]

@Polaris922

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P4wdhy12-o

 

Although I can remember a few on the Flyers alone, it is tough when 99% of the stuff out there is for his "victimization" at the hand of Thornton. I stand by my "he is no angel" remark. Neal however would have been a better choice for Pitt's cheap shot artist than Orpik is. That I can agree with.

Edited March 11, 2014 by flyerrod

[jammer2]

  I've typed this many times over the years. There is nothing in hockey more infuriating than a fight breaking out after a good, hard legal check. It's my biggest pet peeve in all of hockey...I get *so* pissed!!!  The problem, is men are not men anymore. In the 60's, 70's and even the 80's for the most part....men were men back then. If your teammate got smoked on a legal hit, for the most part, you took his number and exacted revenge in some way, shape or form. What you didn't do was drop the gloves everytime somebody looked at your teammate wrong. I call it the pussification of our fine sport.

 

  I love fights, but agree with everyone else, the staged fights between the AHL call ups hurt the momentum of a game, and have no real bearing on the outcome. If your AHL bum gets his clock cleaned by the other teams AHL goon, can't see a team getting a pump from that.

 

 I think fighting *has* to stay in the game, so the players have an avenue for revenge and in general losing their temper....question....is it time to adopt the OHL's new rule? You get 10 fights per year, when you pass that threshold, you get fined and suspended. It could work at the NHL level, I believe. It takes the goons out of the equation, maybe they get dressed for a tough divisional battle, but for the most part, they would be rendered useless....AND then, players that can actualy skate will be able to make more of an impact. Players in the league just to fight, would go the way of the Do Do.....BUT should there be a really dirty hit, someone still has to pay the price. This could work IMHO.

[yave1964]

IMHO the instigator rule has hurt the game, causing irreparable harm to follow Jammers point.

 

  I am going to use the Wings Nick Kronwall as my example (see that b21? lol).

 

  He has really toned his act down over the past two seasons since Lidstrom retired and he was forced to move up to the top pairing, but previous to that he drilled three or four poor saps a year into the ice. Whether legal or not can be debated and has been debated to death, but he usually goes after star players.

  With the instigator rule he can do this with no worry of retaliation because the other team would be penalized for it and the Wings would come out with an advantage. Thus he is free to play his game without worry, killing a Kesler or a Briere or a Voracek with no fear that someone will retaliate because to do so would hurt their team.

  I hate goon on goon, I love bad blood feuds, teams that truly do not like each other and fight to avenge bad blood or to intimidate and look for an edge. Not enough of that anymore, sadly nowadays most of the fighting is by the circus clowns who get five minutes a nite on the ice for that reason.

[Polaris922]

@Polaris922

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5P4wdhy12-o

 

Although I can remember a few on the Flyers alone, it is tough when 99% of the stuff out there is for his "victimization" at the hand of Thornton. I stand by my "he is no angel" remark. Neal however would have been a better choice for Pitt's cheap shot artist than Orpik is. That I can agree with.

 

 

Nice try...  even the announcers defend the hit at one point as he didn't extend his knee to get Stepan and Stepan changed direction trying to avoid the hit, causing the thigh on thigh hit.  Not knee on knee.  Watch the video closely.  I can link you the Shanahan video explaining why there wasn't even a hearing.  I figured you'd at least use the hit on Erik Cole he got suspended for in 2007. That was his rookie suspension.  Even in that hit Cole turns his back at the last minute, but Orpik didn't pull up and got the suspension he deserved.  So let's see...  Orpik has been suspended twice in over ten years.  Playing the physical style of defense he plays?  You're certifiable if you think he's a dirty player. 

 

 If it's any consolation...  the Flyers are beating the Penguins 18 to 15 in disciplinary actions since the start of 2010, including a 12 to 10 edge in suspensions. 

[flyerrod]

Nice try... even the announcers defend the hit at one point as he didn't extend his knee to get Stepan and Stepan changed direction trying to avoid the hit, causing the thigh on thigh hit. Not knee on knee.

It was the intent, not the result and they were Pittsburgh announcers...I would expect nothing  less from them. So the team with the reputation for being Bullies and not the darlings of the NHL has more suspensions....I would have never thought that......... <_<

[Commander Clueless]

IMHO the instigator rule has hurt the game, causing irreparable harm to follow Jammers point.

 

  I am going to use the Wings Nick Kronwall as my example (see that b21? lol).

 

  He has really toned his act down over the past two seasons since Lidstrom retired and he was forced to move up to the top pairing, but previous to that he drilled three or four poor saps a year into the ice. Whether legal or not can be debated and has been debated to death, but he usually goes after star players.

  With the instigator rule he can do this with no worry of retaliation because the other team would be penalized for it and the Wings would come out with an advantage. Thus he is free to play his game without worry, killing a Kesler or a Briere or a Voracek with no fear that someone will retaliate because to do so would hurt their team.

  I hate goon on goon, I love bad blood feuds, teams that truly do not like each other and fight to avenge bad blood or to intimidate and look for an edge. Not enough of that anymore, sadly nowadays most of the fighting is by the circus clowns who get five minutes a nite on the ice for that reason.

 

A fair point about the instigator, but at the same time you have to wonder if removing the instigator penalty would only increase the amount of fights that start over clean hits. In fact, I'm sure it would.

 

There has to be a happy middle ground somewhere, but I'm not sure how to acheive it.

Edited March 12, 2014 by Commander Clueless

[bunnyman]

I think the pre-arranged fights should earn suspensions. An enforcer defending his star player should earn a bonus. Intent to injure star players with dirty/questionable hits should earn suspensions, retaliatory hits on cheap shot artistes should earn bonuses.

Keep the game of hockey pure with lots of good fighting.

[fanaticV3.0]

So a player making what you admit is a still legal hit needs to answer for it?  A hit is either legal or not.  "Almost" is not applicable.  If a player "almost" makes contact with the head it's still legal.  if a player "almost" misses the head but still makes contact with it, it's illegal.

 

I'll even go so far as to say not all illegal hits need to be answered for.  There are countless examples of hits where it's clear that there was no intent...usually a player making some last second change of motion which puts them in a more vulnerable spot.  It's still the responsibility of the player making the hit to keep it clean but as we know that doesn't always happen. 

 

So those players should have to answer for their actions, too?

 

Cheap shots are what need to be answered for.

 

Don't ask him to justify his opinions. You'll end up tired, confused, and with a headache.

[fanaticV3.0]

I find it interesting people take issue with goons fighting just for the sake of it, because there is way less of that now than even just a few years ago. There are piratically no "goons" left in the league. There are no more Tie Domis, Dan Kordics, Dave Browns, or Tony Twists in the NHL anymore. They aren't a dying breed, they are dead.

 

I don't care if it's off of a face off, retaliation for a dirty (or clean) hit, as long as it's between two willing combatants, I have no issue with it. I don't like cheap shots, fighting a guy who doesn't want to go, or other stuff like that, but if it's between two guys who want to go, I say let them go. This talk of suspending one kind of fight but allowing another is nonsense.

[Commander Clueless]

I find it interesting people take issue with goons fighting just for the sake of it, because there is way less of that now than even just a few years ago. There are piratically no "goons" left in the league. There are no more Tie Domis, Dan Kordics, Dave Browns, or Tony Twists in the NHL anymore. They aren't a dying breed, they are dead.

 

I don't care if it's off of a face off, retaliation for a dirty (or clean) hit, as long as it's between two willing combatants, I have no issue with it. I don't like cheap shots, fighting a guy who doesn't want to go, or other stuff like that, but if it's between two guys who want to go, I say let them go. This talk of suspending one kind of fight but allowing another is nonsense.

 

Yep. Almost dead, but not quite. As a Leafs fan I can tell you that Tie Domi was roughly 2-3 times the player that Frazer McLaren is, and he still gets a spot once in awhile. Was a regular last year.

 

Still, with the way it's going, it looks like the "goon" will be dead very soon.

 

I don't take issue with fighting for the sake of fighting, but I do take issue with it when it interrupts the flow of the game for no practical reason. If it's after a play is dead, sure. Why not?

[fanaticV3.0]

Yep. Almost dead, but not quite. As a Leafs fan I can tell you that Tie Domi was roughly 2-3 times the player that Frazer McLaren is, and he still gets a spot once in awhile. Was a regular last year.

 

Still, with the way it's going, it looks like the "goon" will be dead very soon.

 

I don't take issue with fighting for the sake of fighting, but I do take issue with it when it interrupts the flow of the game for no practical reason. If it's after a play is dead, sure. Why not?

 

I grew up in an era where there was way more fighting just for the sake of it. I remember anticipating games based just on who each team's heavyweights were, knowing they'd go at a certain point in the game. This was after the sideshow that was the 70s and parts of the 80s. If two goons squaring off now bothers people, I can't even imagine them watching the game in the past.

 

I agree about it interrupting an actual play. That's annoying. Aside from that, I got no problem with it. One of my greatest memories from hockey growing up was Claude Lemieux going at it with Darren McCarty right at the beginning of the game. I hated Lemieux, but he deserves credit for stepping up.

Edited March 12, 2014 by fanaticV3.0

[yave1964]

I find it interesting people take issue with goons fighting just for the sake of it, because there is way less of that now than even just a few years ago. There are piratically no "goons" left in the league. There are no more Tie Domis, Dan Kordics, Dave Browns, or Tony Twists in the NHL anymore. They aren't a dying breed, they are dead.

 

I don't care if it's off of a face off, retaliation for a dirty (or clean) hit, as long as it's between two willing combatants, I have no issue with it. I don't like cheap shots, fighting a guy who doesn't want to go, or other stuff like that, but if it's between two guys who want to go, I say let them go. This talk of suspending one kind of fight but allowing another is nonsense.

 I agree with pretty much what you said here. Thanks for your input.

  There are still goons around, they just arent colorful like a Domi or Twist, you have Mike Borwn and McClaren and a half a dozen more who really cannot play and are around for anything other than fighting. I disagree that the breed is dead, but i do agree it is dying.

  Domi and Dave Brown could play a little, so could Probie and even Joey Kocur. The few goons we have left, guys like John Scott and Kaleta really seem to offer nothing on the ice other than five minutes a game chasing people around looking to fight. I have grudgingly developed a little like for Rinaldo, when he came in i thought, two three years tops he would be long gone but he has learned to play a little bit. Still not someone i want on the ice with a couple of minutes to go in a close game but the little guy can play.

[yave1964]

  Another thing is this helmet rule, guys cannot remove their helmets before a fight out of concern for concussions. Guys with visors who cannot remove their lid, i wouldnt want to punch them out of fear of injuring my hand on the visor. I know it is a detriment to fighting to force players to leave helmets on but i think it is a dumb rule which will lead to injury down the road.

  Not saying the game needs to turn into Slap Shot or Goon and players safety should be factored in but c'mon, enough already.

[fanaticV3.0]

 I agree with pretty much what you said here. Thanks for your input.

  There are still goons around, they just arent colorful like a Domi or Twist, you have Mike Borwn and McClaren and a half a dozen more who really cannot play and are around for anything other than fighting. I disagree that the breed is dead, but i do agree it is dying.

  Domi and Dave Brown could play a little, so could Probie and even Joey Kocur. The few goons we have left, guys like John Scott and Kaleta really seem to offer nothing on the ice other than five minutes a game chasing people around looking to fight. I have grudgingly developed a little like for Rinaldo, when he came in i thought, two three years tops he would be long gone but he has learned to play a little bit. Still not someone i want on the ice with a couple of minutes to go in a close game but the little guy can play.

 

I think it is for all intents and purposes dead. I know there's still a few left, but there are so few of them and they are insignificant to the game.

 

I disagree that guys like Scott and Kaleta skating around looking for fights, while guys in the past didn't do the same. Some of them could play a little bit, some of them couldn't, but their main purpose was to fight. They were known for their fisticuffs and if they weren't, they wouldn't have a job. Last I read fighting was down in 2012 and again in 2013 and that is because less of those guys exist imo (other things too, but that's a big factor).