MacDonald has been Re-signed

[brelic]

Matt Carle makes beaucoup bank Steve Wyznewski makes beaucoup bank, those guys set the market last year,  guys who play defense well will get their money.

 

Those guys set the mark that AMac has never ever reached in his career. So why is he being paid like them?

 

Russell is a great comparable. And he's signed for a short term, mid-level money.

 

Homer is one of, if not the biggest, contributor to a distorted salary structure. 

 

He bet against himself with Streit.

 

He bet against himself with Bryz.

 

He bet against himself with AMac.

 

He sets the 'market' value on players that haven't even gone to market yet.

[Bakanekimiwa]

Matt Carle: 31 points (30+ for fifth consecutive season*), 7 ppp, +1

James Wisniewski: 51 points (3rd 30+ season), 28 ppp, even

 

MacDonald: 28 points (has never scored 30), 11 ppp, -22

 

Maybe I'm missing something in the comparison?

 

you've missed several critical points in your apples to oranges comparison.  you like stats.. fair enough. 

 

one thing you are missing is the caveat that he played on the islanders most of the season so his -22 should be framed with that understanding. point 2 is that he's sniffed 30 points twice and he's just 27 years old. AGAIN, on an islanders team that has been, practically and statistically, shiiite.

 

Wiz signed a 6yr $33m in July 2011 when he had exactly 2 30 pt seasons under his belt. that's in 2011 $$$. 

 

Carle played with Pronger... end of conversation about his point totals. I dunno if the asterisk by his name is because he did not score 30+ pts in 2012, technically he has NOT scored 30+ for 5th 'consecutive' ... but this is all nit-picking really. 

 

My main point is:  the way you've chosen your players and statistics here is obviously flawed and chosen to show exactly what you'd like to prove... the unprovable. Time will tell and your certainly entitled to you're opinion here, but please spare us these types of highly flawed comparisons. 

 

edit: 'your' to 'you're' 

edit2: which apparently didn't work. 

Edited April 16, 2014 by Bakanekimiwa

[JackStraw]

Matt Carle: 31 points (30+ for fifth consecutive season*), 7 ppp, +1

James Wisniewski: 51 points (3rd 30+ season), 28 ppp, even

 

MacDonald: 28 points (has never scored 30), 11 ppp, -22

 

Maybe I'm missing something in the comparison?

 

Rad, you seem to have a fixation on points. Mike Green could probably be had if you're interested. Me, I'll take the solid two way guy.

[JackStraw]

Matt Carle: 31 points (30+ for fifth consecutive season*), 7 ppp, +1

 

Btw, I was one of the few around here that wanted Matt Carle signed. We've seen the problems that came up when he left. Lose MacDonald and you'll see the exact same problems. Why? Because MacDonald's strength (transition game) is the same as Carle's strength (transition game). They're almost the same player. Carle maybe a little better offensively (but with a weaker shot by far) and MacDonald probably a bit better defensively.

 

So the Flyers essentially got a younger (by two years) Matt Carle for slightly less money.

[radoran]

you've missed several critical points in your apples to oranges comparison.  you like stats.. fair enough. 

 

one thing you are missing is the caveat that he played on the islanders most of the season so his -22 should be framed with that understanding. point 2 is that he's sniffed 30 points twice and he's just 27 years old. AGAIN, on an islanders team that has been, practically and statistically, shiiite.

 

Wiz signed a 6yr $33m in July 2011 when he had exactly 2 30 pt seasons under his belt. that's in 2011 $$$. 

 

Carle played with Pronger... end of conversation about his point totals. I dunno if the asterisk by his name is because he did not score 30+ pts in 2012, technically he has NOT scored 30+ for 5th 'consecutive' ... but this is all nit-picking really. 

 

My main point is:  the way you've chosen your players and statistics here is obviously flawed and chosen to show exactly what you'd like to prove... the unprovable. Time will tell and your certainly entitled to your opinion here, but please spare us these types of highly flawed comparisons. 

 

@JackStraw  @VanFlyer posted the comparables link and asked the question. @mojo posted Wisniewski and Carle. I picked neither of them. That's the answer. I can't help it if you don't like it.

 

Happy to hear the many examples of other defencemen who has never scored 30 that has gotten $5M. You have time, I'll wait.

 

In the meantime, look at the actual "apples to apples" comparison below.

 

Rad, you seem to have a fixation on points. Mike Green could probably be had if you're interested. Me, I'll take the solid two way guy.

 

The "solid two way guy" who is -22 as opposed to even?

 

Neatly ignores the direct apples to apples comparison in the actual response to you so, again:

 

Kris Russell 27 on May 2, has 29 points, 12 on the PP, -11, 201 blocks, two years, $2.6M cap hit

Andrew MacDonald 27, 28 points, 11 on PP, -22, 242 blocks, six years, $5M cap hit

 

Do either of you have ANY comparable players that are making $5M? It's OK if you don't. I'm just asking. Again.

[JackStraw]

@JackStraw posted the comparables link and asked the question.

 

I did? What link? What question? (I think the only question I've asked in this thread is whether anyone wanted Meszaros back instead of MacDonald. No one has volunteered an answer)

Kris Russell 27 on May 2, has 29 points, 12 on the PP, -11, 201 blocks, two years, $2.6M cap hit

 

Never even heard of Kris Russell.

 

I've seen MacDonald play and I like what I see. 

[radoran]

Just for the record - again - I like the player. I'm happy he's with the team and think he has been a positive asset for them.

 

The discussion here isn't "I want Meszaros" or "They were better with Carle"

 

The discussion at hand is whether or not this was an "appropriate" or "market value" contract for the player.

 

@Vanflyer posted the comparables link from capgeek. I listed the players who were on that list and their resumes in comparison.

 

@Vanflyer asked what the going rate for a puck moving, shot blocking defenceman playing 20+ minutes a night was. I posted the comparison to the two next highest shot blockers in the league - one of whom is exactly the same age with almost exactly the same stats playing almost exactly the same time on ice. And making $2.6M

 

@mojo1917 posted that Carle and Wisniewski had "set the market" for MacDonald. I posted their resumes in comparison.

 

I'm answering their questions and responding to their assertions.

 

I can't help it if the answers don't support the contention that this contract is "market value" for the player that we all like.

 

And, I've said over and over again that we will see how this plays out over the next six seasons.

 

I, for one, expect great things

[Bakanekimiwa]

@JackStraw posted the comparables link and asked the question. @mojo1917 posted Wisniewski and Carle. I picked neither of them. That's the answer. I can't help it if you don't like it.

 

Happy to hear the many examples of other defencemen who has never scored 30 that has gotten $5M. You have time, I'll wait.

 

In the meantime, look at the actual "apples to apples" comparison below.

 

 

The "solid two way guy" who is -22 as opposed to even?

 

Neatly ignores the direct apples to apples comparison in the actual response to you so, again:

 

Kris Russell 27 on May 2, has 29 points, 12 on the PP, -11, 201 blocks, two years, $2.6M cap hit

Andrew MacDonald 27, 28 points, 11 on PP, -22, 242 blocks, six years, $5M cap hit

 

Do either of you have ANY comparable players that are making $5M? It's OK if you don't. I'm just asking. Again.

 

 

honestly don't have time, nor care to investigate since each year of FA sets a new bar for lunatic signings. the flyers have just tended to set the bar as early as possible to avoid the bidding wars, for better for worse. as well, capgeek seems to either be down, or my internet is not allowing it here at work. 

 

if this signing is really that crazy or outlandish to you, just wait a few months and we'll check back. if you've been paying attention, and it seems you have, each season raises the bar over previous ones. each year players are paid more and more. so to compare any deal that was not made with comparable players within weeks of each other is a fool's errand IMO. add to that, the fact that the cap figure goes up and up and this is really a silly conversation. 

 

what really matters is that Mac has made OUR D better. the deal is what it is and i'll defer to Homey on what it takes to get player A signed over player B for what price. I'm happy that he's signed and we'll let the rest play out. stats are fun, but you're looking at them in a bubble. choose the size of your bubble and you'll get different angles for your opinion. i'm not impressed. 

 

is this the best deal for the Flyers to make? probably not. is it the worst? i really don't think so. do points really tell the whole story? absolutely not. 

[radoran]

I did? What link? What question?

 

My bad, it was VanFlyer (editing)

[radoran]

stats are fun, but you're looking at them in a bubble. choose the size of your bubble and you'll get different angles for your opinion. i'm not impressed.

 

I didn't choose any of the bubbles. They have been asserted to me.

 

I'm not impressed with people who just assert things without any backup whatsoever and then are upset when the facts don't fit their preconceived notions.

 

 

 

if this signing is really that crazy or outlandish to you, just wait a few months and we'll check back.

 

It's not. I've clearly said he should have gotten somewhere in the $4-$4.5M category. In this and other threads.

 

The only people getting all hot and bothered about it aren't me. I'm engaged in a discussion on a message board with people who are asking specific questions and asserting specific things.

[radoran]

I've seen MacDonald play and I like what I see.

 

I like it, too.

 

His contract is just not market value or comparable to what players like him are making.

 

I hope he exceeds expectations.

[mojo1917]

@radoran

To my mind Howson f'd everyone when he signed Wisnewski to that deal.

Not that Wiz isn't a good player but the money was looney tunes and every agent worth his Jos A Bank tie will point to that deal and say well he got this so my guy is certainly worth that. 

 

Here's the other thing, its not my money, I want a team that can win, A Mac helps with that, so he's going to be around for a while making big bank, if the team wins I have not one problem with his salary. Maybe a slower guy with a NMC gets moved to make the defense better... i'm okay with that too.

 

the group prior to A Mac's arrival was glacially slow. now they're just slow, so to me that's a step in the right direction. 

 

the deal is a little longer and a little more than i'd prefer but i can't find the outrage for it. 

[murraycraven]

Just because he doesn't challenge at the blue line that doesn't mean he's a turnstile. Hall Gill would be a turnstile at the blue line. MacDonald does a good job of forcing the guy wide and taking away the play. That's the problem I have with these so-called advanced stats. They're not very "advanced". They just quantify one aspect of the game without any context. I can watch MacDonald play and know that he's better than the guy he replaced. That's a plus in my book.

 

I think virtually everyone agrees that the Flyers d-corps is too slow. Meszaros was one of those slow guys and now he's been replaced. Hopefully they will find a way to replace at least one more. This defense needed a makeover. It was not one Drew Doughty away from being good.

 

 

I agree Jack but I do think they overpaid for MacD... again, I like the player but I think 6 years at 5M is pretty steep.  He is a good all around dman...  not great and maybe slightly above average and he is making more money that everyone on the Team except G and Streit.  

 

I like him...

[JackStraw]

what really matters is that Mac has made OUR D better

 

Exactly. And the question for anyone that objects to the contract is, what's the alternative?

[radoran]

@radoran

To my mind Howson f'd everyone when he signed Wisnewski to that deal.

Not that Wiz isn't a good player but the money was looney tunes and every agent worth his Jos A Bank tie will point to that deal and say well he got this so my guy is certainly worth that. 

 

Here's the other thing, its not my money, I want a team that can win, A Mac helps with that, so he's going to be around for a while making big bank, if the team wins I have not one problem with his salary. Maybe a slower guy with a NMC gets moved to make the defense better... i'm okay with that too.

 

the group prior to A Mac's arrival was glacially slow. now they're just slow, so to me that's a step in the right direction. 

 

the deal is a little longer and a little more than i'd prefer but i can't find the outrage for it. 

 

The only "outrage" is coming from people who insist that this must be a market value contract and that MacDonald must be worth it.

 

The whole point of a message board is for discussion of points. That's all that's been going on here.

 

Aside from the people losing their minds that it might actually not be the Best of All Possible Contracts*

 

Quite frankly, in this situation Homer is the Howson in and MacDonald is the Wisniewski. That comparable I can get on board with

 

 

 

* deliberate hyperbole

[DaGreatGazoo]

Btw, I was one of the few around here that wanted Matt Carle signed

 

So did this little green fella at my desk......for the record. 

[JackStraw]

I like it, too.

 

His contract is just not market value or comparable to what players like him are making.

 

I hope he exceeds expectations.

 

What is market value? He was about to become a UFA, who are you going to compare him to? Someone who signed a contract five years ago? Market value changes all the time, and the reality is this isn't the NYSE where someone is setting prices. Market value is whatever someone is willing to pay. My guess is that if he had hit free agency he would have gotten something similar. Possibly more $$$ even. Then you have to figure in what he brings to this team. He is good at things that many of our d-men are not good at. If you don't sign him then you may end up having to trade assets (top six forward+) for a guy like Edler.

 

I would say if you want to assess the contract in dollar terms, somewhere around mid-term is probably the best time to do it rather than at the beginning. Particularly with a relatively young guy.

[JackStraw]

So did this little green fella at my desk......for the record. 

 

I know there were a few of us. But the fan club meetings were pretty damn small.

[radoran]

What is market value? He was about to become a UFA, who are you going to compare him to?

 

Well, for starters, the guy who is the same age with virtually the same stats in virtually the same position for Calgary and signed a two year extension this season. For $2.6M.

 

That would be the guy you "never heard of" that I've put in more than a few posts already.

 

And I still think MacDonald is worth more than him.

[radoran]

JackStraw, on 16 Apr 2014 - 1:31 PM, said:

Btw, I was one of the few around here that wanted Matt Carle signed

 

So did this little green fella at my desk......for the record. 

 

Me three.

[JackStraw]

Well, for starters, the guy who is the same age with virtually the same stats in virtually the same position for Calgary and signed a two year extension this season. For $2.6M.

 

That would be the guy you "never heard of" that I've put in more than a few posts already.

 

And I still think MacDonald is worth more than him.

 

So he would have become an UFA after this year? What do you think he would have gotten? What do you think MacDonald would have gotten? Stats aside, how similar are they as players? There are things defensemen do that don't show up on the stat sheet. Does unknown guy do those things as well as MacDonald?

Edited April 16, 2014 by JackStraw

[radoran]

So he would have become an UFA after this year? What do you think he would have gotten? What do you think MacDonald would have gotten? Stats aside, how similar are they as players? There are things defensemen do that don't show up on the stat sheet. Does unknown guy do those things as well as MacDonald?

 

He turns 27 on May 2. Just finished his seventh season. Anyone over the age of 27 who has played seven seasons can declare himself a UFA.

 

I do hope I'm not "choosing my bubble" by answering your direct question...

 

Obviously, I haven't spent much time watching Calgary this season. And I'll wager neither of us have really seen much of MacDonald outside of 19 games with Philadelphia (you may have spent more time watching the Islanders than I think and, if so, you have my condolences ). Some of our canadian friends who likely have seen Calgary a few more times than us found the comparison to be perfectly cromulent.

 

And yet, as I stated specifically, I do think MacDonald is "worth" more than Russell.

 

We're simply talking a matter of degrees here. Shades of gray between the black and the white.

 

Just not almost double more. $1.5M more.

 

Why this has become the most controversial thing anyone has ever posted* escapes me. As I've said clearly in this thread, my concerns about the contract aren't strictly limited to the Flyers themselves. If another team had signed an Andrew MacDonald-type to a $5M contract, I'd have the same opinion. And that's because it skews the entire salary structure of the league - as @mojo1917 noted in talking about Howson setting the market with Wisniewski.

 

I just don't see where any other team has signed an Andrew MacDonald-type to $5M. And, apparently, no one else has seen it, either.

 

 

 

* deliberate hyperbole

[JackStraw]

@radoran - you're tilting at windmills then. Salaries only go in one direction, up. Twenty years ago ('93-'94 season) the highest paid player in the league made $3.35 million. It was Lindros.

[radoran]

@radoran - you're tilting at windmills then. Salaries only go in one direction, up. Twenty years ago ('93-'94 season) the highest paid player in the league made $3.35 million. It was Lindros.

 

Tilting at windmills? On a hockey message board? You don't say!

 

Salaries do go up - it's just a question of how much and how fast.

 

We've lost a season and a half of hockey to spiraling salaries.

 

That, as a fan, concerns me primarily because I like watching NHL hockey. I didn't give a rat's ass what the NHL paid their players before they made it an issue that cost us a season and a half of hockey. "They" being the owners and the players.

 

And then they imposed a system that means that players' salaries are an integral part of determining how a team can be constructed - the salary cap.

 

And now every mid-level defenceman is apparently "worth" $5M a year.

 

Insanity. And not "insanity" in that "they're getting paid millions to play a game!?!?!?" - "insanity" in that "it's a ridiculous amount of money to be playing that player based upon his actual production."

 

Insanity in the context of getting paid millions to play a game.

[ruxpin]

haha.. did i sound grumpy? maybe. i'm not. it's just the same old song around here. i don't expect everyone to be happy with every signing, not by any means. but, $5m/year avg is not bad for a 27 y/o who has the poise and puck moving ability that Mac has. 

 

i didn't realize that his payment balloons toward the end, but i also see nothing wrong with that here. sure, in sports... anything can happen. he could join prongs on the sideline collecting those bigger checks in the final years, but in 6 years he'll be 33, and in that time, that money could seem like a massive underpayment with things work out well. 

 

second guessing can go both ways here with these things and maybe i get a little frustrated when deals that are NOT obviously horrible are so overly scrutinized here. all the while, let's all forget deals like Matt Read which allow us to take risks in other areas. 

 

I hear you.  I had similar exasperation when we traded a 2nd and 3rd for Mac.   Honestly, I was ecstatic because he was actually on my wish list and we didn't give up a roster player for him (technically.  One could argue we gave up Mez for him).  But the carrying on about the pick was stunning to me.  I don't think you do better with a 2nd round pick than a developed 27 year old like Mac.

 

Honestly, if he plays out the entire 6 years here (there isn't a NTC/NMC so who knows?) it makes him 33 like you said.  33 is usually the age we're getting defensemen, so this is a nice twist.  Come to think of it, we also usually trade away our decent defensemen by 27 so we're completely entered bizarro world here.

 

It'll be good, I think.  What I'm really hoping, though, is that they don't view him as their answer to a top pair defenseman.  He may be okay on the top pairing but as the second guy.  I think if they over expose him on the top pair you'll start to see numbers like on the Island.  He could really shine and hold down the defense from the second line.  They figure out a way to get a top line guy and solidify that pair, the Flyers could actually have a reasonably good defense.