Lafleur on Vanek/Pacioretty

[flyercanuck]

Did anyone hear HOFer Guy Lafleur lay into Thomas Vanek and Max Pacioretty yesterday? He basically said you can't win with players like them, and that they should stay home. Can't say i disagree with him...both players had good regular season....and they combined for 2 g 4 a in the ECF. Neither one of them seemed like they were interested in going to the net. Not good enough IMO.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/guy-lafleur-torches-max-pacioretty--thomas-vanek---they-can-stay-home-155307895.html

 

Edited June 5, 2014 by radoran
added link

[yave1964]

Did anyone hear HOFer Guy Lafleur lay into Thomas Vanek and Max Pacioretty yesterday? He basically said you can't win with players like them, and that they should stay home. Can't say i disagree with him...both players had good regular season....and they combined for 2 g 4 a in the ECF. Neither one of them seemed like they were interested in going to the net. Not good enough IMO.

 

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nhl-puck-daddy/guy-lafleur-torches-max-pacioretty--thomas-vanek---they-can-stay-home-155307895.html

I gotta disagree with the Flower about this one, as far as Pacioretty goes anyway.

Pax is a typical power forward, hot and cold in the post season. I remember wanting to kill Shanahan a few postseasons for disappearing after solid regular seasons. Lucic wore the goat horns for the Bruins a couple of years ago. It kind of goes with the power forward role. Defenses tighten up in front of the net and collapse in front of their goalie come April/May and power forwards more than any other player sometimes see a serious drop in production.

  Pacioretty could play for me any time. A big tough kid, Lafleur to me is showing French Canadian bias against American Hockey players, calling out the teams biggest star when quite frankly they went a round or two further than most would have thought. I have been to Quebec maybe a dozen times, they are some of the snootiest people up there, hell, they want to form their own country for Christ sake. The whole Anglophobic attitude of the Province comes out of his mouth way too often.

  That said, if Montreal wants to dump Pacioretty I am sure somehow someway the Wings can figure out a way to fit him onto our rooster, sigh, if we really have to. Not sure if we have any French Canadian players to offer, maybe LaKindl, LaWeiss and LaClearyFroise. That oughta do it.

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

 

 Well Pacioretty did seem to avoid the dirty areas against the Rangers.

 

 And I'm pretty sure most French Canadians are happy to be part of Canada, and are nice people. At least I've found that in many trips to Quebec for both work and pleasure. The seperatists are no further than they were 25 years ago. Most Americans I've met are nice people. Sadly, it's the obnoxious idiots that leave the deepest mark. It shouldn't be that way.

[yave1964]

@yave1964

 

 Well Pacioretty did seem to avoid the dirty areas against the Rangers.

 

 And I'm pretty sure most French Canadians are happy to be part of Canada, and are nice people. At least I've found that in many trips to Quebec for both work and pleasure. The seperatists are no further than they were 25 years ago. Most Americans I've met are nice people. Sadly, it's the obnoxious idiots that leave the deepest mark. It shouldn't be that way.

I know, I love the French Canadian people, so does the wife. The wife and I try not to be like the typical United States citizen who cannot find the Provinces on a map, we love to travel and have been across Ontario and Quebec quite often.

  That sounded rather Francophobic of me, I sincerely did not mean it, Lafluer has had a difficult post career, a lot of it is self inflicted, the stuff with his son is sad as can be. But calling out the teams star who happens to hail from the United States strikes me as suspiciously racist.

  Funny story, kind of, the wife and I were in Montreal a few years ago staying at a bed and breakfast and enjoying blending in the best we could, on the last day we were on St. Catherine's and took a horse drawn carriage ride around old Montreal. The man who was driving the carriage was a separatist who between pointing out the sites kept taking cracks at the wife and I for being from the States. We were incredulous at his temerity, I mean he was rude to the point of obnoxiousness. We really did little to make a friend at the end when the wife refused, loudly, to allow me to tip him one single loonie. He muttered as we walked away. Really, that is the only time in all of our experiences in Canada that we have had a single issue.

  But anyway, back to Guy, great player, no reason to rip the teams biggest star. Jerk move.

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

 

 

 .No worries...You don't come across as anything-phobic.

 

 I've heard plenty of stories of Quebecious being rude and obnoxious. That clown didn't deserve a penny so good on your wife and you. But I can't honestly say I've ever had a problem. I've worked all over the place there, including many communities where noone spoke english. My french is pretty bad, but I never had a problem. We've vacationed there several times and same thing. I love vacationing there.

 

 Ever been east of Quebec City? Tadoussac? Eastern townships? Mingen Archipeligo? Gaspe? All awesome places to see.

 

 No mention of Vanek? I just thought both of them could have given more

[Vanflyer]

Did anyone hear HOFer Guy Lafleur lay into Thomas Vanek and Max Pacioretty yesterday? H

 

Did you hear that thump?? That was the sound of Vaneks stock value hitting the floor of Ricks basement. 

Edited June 6, 2014 by Vanflyer

[yave1964]

@yave1964

 

 

 .No worries...You don't come across as anything-phobic.

 

 I've heard plenty of stories of Quebecious being rude and obnoxious. That clown didn't deserve a penny so good on your wife and you. But I can't honestly say I've ever had a problem. I've worked all over the place there, including many communities where noone spoke english. My french is pretty bad, but I never had a problem. We've vacationed there several times and same thing. I love vacationing there.

 

 Ever been east of Quebec City? Tadoussac? Eastern townships? Mingen Archipeligo? Gaspe? All awesome places to see.

 

 No mention of Vanek? I just thought both of them could have given more

Our French is poor, an understatement. Quebec City is as far East as we have dared to venture, absolutely beautiful country. I was stationed in Germany for 3 1/2 years while in the Army going on 30 years ago now and I know I will never get back to Europe, getting to Quebec is as close as I ever will get again, the old world charm, the sidewalk cafe's with flowers in the windows, having people speak French to you and then flawlessly, seamlessly transition to English, I love Quebec. I keep telling the wife that if this country tilts any further to the Right we might have to retire there. Honestly, if it weren't for the grandkids we would probably already be there.

  As far as Vanek, wow the postseason did nothing to help the stock of former Sabres, did it? Miller took a beating, Vanek playing on the fourth line, Hell, even Ott was mediocre at best. I concur with what Lafleur said about Vanek, I just think that an iconic player should be a bit more gracious that that. Everyone knows it is true, Vanek laid an egg for the Habitants, Pacioretty was not the same player in the postseason as he was in the regular season, I just think Guy had an agenda with his comments that hurts the Montreal club. Not a conspiracy theorist, I just remember Henri Richard ruining Claude Ruel in Montreal, Cunnyworth may be the best coach out there but we will never know, a certain amount of overt racism is alive and well in Quebec. I get it, hell if we ever do move there (a pipe dream, but hey, you never know) I will learn as much French as possible, I know a lot of players like Johnny Ogrodnick hated it with the Nordiques because of the language barrier, I feel for the European's for the same reason.

  Sorry, went on a bit of a ramble. In short, Vanek sucks, Pacioretty don't, I love Quebec and Lafluer was out of line.

[jammer2]

@yave1964  Vanek deserved all the bad pres he got or is getting. I'm with you on Max though. He is very streaky, but a lot of power forwards are that way. Bottom line, he will score 30 a year for the next 5 years, and those are not numbers to sneeze at.

[Samifan]

Did anyone hear HOFer Guy Lafleur lay into Thomas Vanek and Max Pacioretty yesterday? He basically said you can't win with players like them, and that they should stay home.

 

HOFer Lafleur thinks Vanek is lazy and useless yet Junkie thinks Vanek is a beast. I say we book the two of the for a point/counter point segment! It could be like those old Saturday Night Live sketches with Dan Akryod and Jane Curtain. "Junkie you....."

[flyercanuck]

@yave1964

 

 Next time you're in Quebec City drive east to Baie St. Paul It's a great little town. Turn off 138 to 362 (you can take 138 straight through one way it's about 2 1/2 hours to Tadoussac) and drive through the Charlevoix district to Malbaie  Beautiful rolling hills, views of the St. Lawrence, wine country. A meteorite hit the area 350 million years ago making it a distinct geographical wonder. It's a designated Unesco Biosphere. Continue east once back on 138 to Tadoussac - one of the first settlements in Canada-settled around 1600 (oldest wooden church in North America is here) and the best whale watching I've ever seen. We saw belugas, humpback, fin, minke, porpoises (all those can be seen from shore of the Saguennay fjord early in the morning -don't forget your coffee and baileys) and even saw 2 blue whales from a boat in the St. Lawrence. Kayaking beside whales is quite an experience. The ferry is free across the Saugenay.

[brelic]

That sounded rather Francophobic of me, I sincerely did not mean it, Lafluer has had a difficult post career, a lot of it is self inflicted, the stuff with his son is sad as can be. But calling out the teams star who happens to hail from the United States strikes me as suspiciously racist.

 

I'm not so sure you were off the mark. Don't forget, this is a hockey town that publicly chastised its star, captain, and heart and soul player Saku Koivu because he didn't know enough French. 

 

The Habs do everything they can to hire French coaches, GM, players, etc. So there is definitely an entrenched bias toward French Canadians. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that - it's no different than a team drafting/signing mostly Russians, or Finns, or Americans because they like the way they play. But every once in a while, such as the Koivu incident, or what Joe Sakic went through the same thing as a Nordique, you see that bias come out in less than friendly ways.

 

So to believe that Flower's comments may have been motivated by something more than actual play on the ice is not a stretch. I didn't hear or see the interview, so I'm only going based on what you say, but it certainly is possible.

[yave1964]

@flyercanuck@brelic

 

  We are making a trip in August to Quebec and then Ottawa, and finally finishing in Toronto for my annual trip to Mecca, AKA the Hockey hall of Fame. This year, we are going to stop by Brian McFarlane's museum in Clarington, something we have intended to do several times and something has always prevented it. We were right near it once when it was located in Niagara Falls but it was closed and we didn't get back the next day, something i always regretted. It is so damn nice having a wife who not only understands my rabid love for the game but shares it as well. She even has a bumper sticker on her car that says 'My other car is a Zamboni.' Damn good woman.

 

  Brelic, the whole French English war has been fought over and over in Quebec, Randy Cunneyworth got whacked for not speaking French, Al Macneil won a damn Stanley Cup for the team in the early seventies and was run out by the pocket Rocket. Koivu was a perfect example.

  And now Grapes has been ripping on the Canadiens, Senators and Leafs for not having enough Canadian players on their teams. The overt racism is appalling, it is out in the open, between ripping on Europeans and players from the States, no offense to anyone who is not this way but sometimes it seems as if the national sport of Canada is ripping foreigners. What blows my mind is the things that Cherry is allowed to say, hell if a USA announcer stated that the thing he hates about the Cincinnati Reds is how many black players they have he would be out of a job and ostracized. I know a lot of folks look at Cherry as the fool that he is, I actually enjoy his take on the game, seldom do i not pick up something from his pointing out the nuances, but there are just some things you do not say. And he says them. Fortunately, people with his thought process, if you can call it that, are dying off, literally and figuratively. Lafleur's comments are a bit more subtle than Cherry's who is about as subtle as a fart in church, but need condemned just as strongly.

[ihabs1993]

It's really funny, because if you look at Lafleur's postseason games played and his points right next to Pacioretty after their first three seasons, Pacioretty actually has the better looking numbers in only two trips through the playoffs. Love Guy, but he didn't need to say what he said. Vanek, I agree with. He didn't show up this postseason which is why he won't play for Montreal next year. 

 

Lafleur: 29GP, 4G, 14PTS (Three Postseasons)

 

Pacioretty: 21GP, 5G, 11PTS (Two Postseasons)

 

So in those 8 extra games, Guy only managed 1 more goal and 2 more assists than PacMan.

 

Its a good thing no one thought like Guy did during his time, otherwise he would have been without a job very quickly.

[yave1964]

It's really funny, because if you look at Lafleur's postseason games played and his points right next to Pacioretty after their first three seasons, Pacioretty actually has the better looking numbers in only two trips through the playoffs. Love Guy, but he didn't need to say what he said. Vanek, I agree with. He didn't show up this postseason which is why he won't play for Montreal next year. 

 

Lafleur: 29GP, 4G, 14PTS (Three Postseasons)

 

Pacioretty: 21GP, 5G, 11PTS (Two Postseasons)

 

So in those 8 extra games, Guy only managed 1 more goal and 2 more assists than PacMan.

 

Its a good thing no one thought like Guy did during his time, otherwise he would have been without a job very quickly.

God point. Actually he was considered a bit of a disappointment like you said and there was even talk of him going to the WHA at one point. Scotty Bowman was the best thing that ever happened for the flower.

[blocker]

My kids played in a Quebec league.   They've also played on teams representing Quebec cities, as have my grandchildren.  We've spent a lot of time in Quebec.   There were times that I could have gotten angry about slights to me.  But, why let a couple of a##holes spoil the overall experience, which is overwhelmingly a huge plus. 

 

Once, we were in a town north of Trois Rivieres.  I tried to buy a hamburger in the rink.  I pointed at the sign and said "hamburger".  The person behind the counter pretended misunderstanding.  So, I get a French friend to order it for me.  He points at the sign and says "hamburger".    So, I get my burger.  I go to the cash register and act like I don't understand the price.  I keep handing over less money than the real price.  A miracle happens.  They, all of a sudden, are able to communicate in English.

 

I was the US rep on a Quebec inter-city league.  Almost all of the business was conducted in French.   I don't speak French, but I understand it fairly well.  Once in awhile. I'd have to have something explained.   At one meeting, one bozo made a motion, in French,  that the chair should not "interrupt" the meetings to "educate" me.  

 

I have also watched US parents move en bloc up and down the stands and block the view of a more polite French crowd.  Once, we were hosts at our arena to some French kids and their parents from northeastern Quebec.   I get a call from our coach.  A local politician had interrupted the game.  Hubert Humphrey, who was running for something, grabbed the mike and  was making a political speech at our rink.  He made some pretty insulting remarks about Minnesota hockey being better than Vermont and Quebec's version.

 

I hope I've learned to get past that stuff.  There are some wonderful people on both sides of the border.   We can't let the jerks spoil things for us.

[jammer2]

@blocker  Some nice insight there Block. Loved the meshing of the less than flattering stories with the underlying message of not letting a few jerks represent an entire community. You could have quite easily allowed those rude experiences to push forward a "Quebec sucks" agenda, only a very wise man would have put the entire package into the proper context....so KUDOS to you!!

 

 

  Personally, I've always been split on the Quebec scenario. First off, historically speaking, I truly believe there would not be a Canada today if it were not for Quebec residents bravery in the early going. French "soldiers" (really, farmers) went beyond the call of duty to hold off the Americans and Ben Franklin. They were basically countering elite muskets with rudimentary weapons such as pitchforks and more than held their own. They pushed the American invasion backwards and that the young fledgling country that would eventually be known as Canada the space it needed to grow and prosper.

 

 The modern day separatist movement in Quebec is sickening. They are traitors, pure and simple. The fact that on any given day, 48-50% of Quebecers want to separate rubs me the wrong way. Their lack of loyalty is undefendable.

[yave1964]

 

 

 

  Personally, I've always been split on the Quebec scenario. First off, historically speaking, I truly believe there would not be a Canada today if it were not for Quebec residents bravery in the early going. French "soldiers" (really, farmers) went beyond the call of duty to hold off the Americans and Ben Franklin. They were basically countering elite muskets with rudimentary weapons such as pitchforks and more than held their own. They pushed the American invasion backwards and that the young fledgling country that would eventually be known as Canada the space it needed to grow and prosper.

 

 

  IT WAS A TIE! We started the wrong General in Benedict Arnold or it would have been a different story!! Coach George Washington should have been ripped for starting the UFA Arnold instead of a more loyal general. No United States guy has had a rougher winter reputation wise before or since until Ryan Miller and Tomas Vanek this year!!

 .

[jammer2]

@yave1964  General Brock scored the game winning goal!!  Ha ha...I don't think there was any doubt USA could have won that war, just flawed tactics, instead of just taking Montreal, they chose to fight the war on 3 different fronts, a well documented mistake.

[radoran]

@yave1964  General Brock scored the game winning goal!!  Ha ha...I don't think there was any doubt USA could have won that war, just flawed tactics, instead of just taking Montreal, they chose to fight the war on 3 different fronts, a well documented mistake.

 

1775? There was no reason whatsoever for the invasion of Canada. It was folly from the start. 

 

The Colonials in no way "sought" a war on three fronts, that's what the Imperial English imposed. 

 

I'm familiar with this because of my time in Vermont - the Green Mountain Boys were involved in this whole travesty.

 

My personal recollection comes from a local play a group I worked with did called "Ethan-not!"

 

There were a few choice sections, including Susie Wilson saying to Ethan Allen's wife "They didn't name no damn road after you!"

 

Susie Wilson wasn't alive in the 1770s

 

Another was the anthem "I hate Queebs"

 

To Wit:

 

I hate Queebs

I think they're dweebs

I hate Queebs!

 

It was a musical...

[yave1964]

@radoran

 

 Absolutely should have never invaded them, no way no how. Not enough man power and the risk/reward was too great. Dumb move.  And you tell this Susie Wilson for me that I only use Ethan Allen paint so god bless the USA!!

  Okay, time for my pills now.

[jammer2]

@radoran  The Americans had two separate divisions in Quebec, one with Montgomery and one lead by Benidict Arnold. They did converge on occasion, but for the most part fought as separate entities, thus my thinking it was a strategy error.

 

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/americanrevolution/p/quebec.htm

[radoran]

@radoran  The Americans had two separate divisions in Quebec, one with Montgomery and one lead by Benidict Arnold. They did converge on occasion, but for the most part fought as separate entities, thus my thinking it was a strategy error.

 

http://militaryhistory.about.com/od/americanrevolution/p/quebec.htm

 

Going on the offensive was an error from the start. They created they extra front that, quite frankly, almost killed them.

 

I understand the Quebecois contributions to Canada. I have stood on the Plains of Abraham.

[flyercanuck]

@blocker  Some nice insight there Block. Loved the meshing of the less than flattering stories with the underlying message of not letting a few jerks represent an entire community. You could have quite easily allowed those rude experiences to push forward a "Quebec sucks" agenda, only a very wise man would have put the entire package into the proper context....so KUDOS to you!!

 

 

  Personally, I've always been split on the Quebec scenario. First off, historically speaking, I truly believe there would not be a Canada today if it were not for Quebec residents bravery in the early going. French "soldiers" (really, farmers) went beyond the call of duty to hold off the Americans and Ben Franklin. They were basically countering elite muskets with rudimentary weapons such as pitchforks and more than held their own. They pushed the American invasion backwards and that the young fledgling country that would eventually be known as Canada the space it needed to grow and prosper.

 

 The modern day separatist movement in Quebec is sickening. They are traitors, pure and simple. The fact that on any given day, 48-50% of Quebecers want to separate rubs me the wrong way. Their lack of loyalty is undefendable.

 

 

The Liberals just won a majority in the Quebec election. The seperatists had their worst share of the popular vote since their inception. Those numbers are about half of 48-50% and declining. Maybe I'm just lucky, but almost everyone I've ever met in Quebec when the topic has arisen considers themself Canadian, Always enjoyed vacationing there.