jammer2 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Voracek / Giroux / SchennSimmonds / Coots / RafflRead/Laughton/UmbergerAkeson / Someone (hopefully not named VLC sucks) / Rinaldo Um, not to be snarky, but I think you left out the best Frenchman currently not in the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 ok, wait. i don't mean to be snarky, but this needs a reality check. hartnell scored 20 goals last season. umberger scored 18. two seasons ago, they both scored 8. you have to go back 3 seasons (jagr) for hartnell to really score more than umberger. if you go back 4 seasons, umberger put up 25 to hartnell's 24. there is NOT a night and day difference between the two in terms of offensive output. hartnell has scored 18 more goals than umberger over 4 seasons, and 17 of those were with jagr. hartnell scored those mostly from the top line and first PP unit, umberger played few minutes and with lesser linemates. it would be very easy to go overboard on the difference in offensive value between the two. the truth is, there is barely a crack of daylight. Fair point. But... Hartnell scores his goals, and in general plays his game, in a certain way. He brings a net front presence on the top line. He has a good one-timer. In other words, he compliments Giroux and Voracek- playmaker, skilled winger, grinder. Again, for me it's no so much Hartnell vs Umberger as Hartnell vs ??? and Umberger vs whoever he replaces wherever he ends up playing. I don't see RJ bringing what Hartnell brought to the top line (don't see him on the top line at all obviously) and I don't see anyone else on the Flyers replacing what Hartnell brought. Unless they suddenly really like McGinn, which would be shocking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 @ruxpin@jammer2 would be interesting to see if they move Coots up to the 2nd line center. Curious to see if he has a breakout season and his season points go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 >>>jammer2 quietly makes note to focus on Coots during the pre-season, before the NANANA draft..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aziz Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 In other words, he compliments Giroux and Voracek- playmaker, skilled winger, grinder. and i get that. i'm not sure the math works like that as much as it used to, 3 man puck movement can get it done, too. 2 man puck movement with one garbage man isn't the only way things have to happen. chicago, for example. i'm ok with the flyers moving a bit away from that model. Again, for me it's no so much Hartnell vs Umberger as Hartnell vs ??? and Umberger vs whoever he replaces wherever he ends up playing. well, it'd be downie umberger replaces. i'm pretty ok with that. the question becomes where does raffl play, as he kind of shared that 3rd line slot with downie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 @aziz If it's broke down to Ummby replacing Downie, that is a huge plus. Perhaps the Flyers attempt to make a star out of Raffl, throwing him in the fire on the top line, huh? He's certainly defensively responsible enough to play big minutes....and his play without the puck is exemplary. Perhaps the flying Frenchman takes the team by storm in the pre-season and forces his way unto the big line...what a great story that would make! This whole first line thing will be a very nice little sidebar during training camp. Will be interesting to see who gets the first shot at G's line and if they can hold unto the chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 well, it'd be downie umberger replaces. i'm pretty ok with that I'm actually way more than just "ok" with that. the question becomes where does raffl play I think Berube said that he thinks Raffl can be a scorer so he may get a shot on one of the top 2 lines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Um, not to be snarky, but I think you left out the best Frenchman currently not in the NHL. Okay. I thought I was missing SOMEBODY, but who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 Okay. I thought I was missing SOMEBODY, but who? Bellemare, the French guy they just signed. http://flyers.nhl.com/club/news.htm?id=722458 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 @ruxpin That's France. I doubt he's the best frenchman from French Ghiana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
murraycraven Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 @ruxpin@jammer2 would be interesting to see if they move Coots up to the 2nd line center. Curious to see if he has a breakout season and his season points go up. doc... I said the same thing in another thread. What if you could get rid of VLC and then throw Cooter to #2 C and have Laughton as the #3? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pilldoc Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 This is the year Laughton better be on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 23, 2014 Share Posted June 23, 2014 @pilldoc Personally, I think he makes the team, just based on his play without the puck and defensive awareness. But, I only want him on the Flyers if he shows he can really cut the mustard....rushing him could really stunt his growth. I'd rather come down on the side of caution and AHL him, let him learn how to play with bigger stronger men....but I'd be thrilled if he forced the Flyers hand with a excellent pre-season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Time for some fun with advanced stats. If someone has a better handle on these let me know if I'm completely misreading this stuff: When playing with Giroux 5 on 5, Hartnell's Corsi % (Corsi for vs opponents Corsi) was a 54.4- essentially, over 50% means the player was possessing the puck more than the opponent. When paired with Hartnell, Giroux's C% was 55.7. Where it gets interesting is what happens when they were split up. When separated from Giroux, Hartnell's C% drops to 51.6. A fair drop (2.8 points), but he was still possessing it more than his opponent. Not unexpected when you're no longer playing with Giroux. What is unexpected is that Giroux's Corsi% drops below 50 when Hartnell isn't playing with him to 49.5 - more than a 6 point differential. Note that this is all 5 on 5 play, so time spent on the PP isn't factored in here. Hartnell's stats: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=329&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5 Giroux's stats: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/showplayer.php?pid=905&withagainst=true&season=2013-14&sit=5v5 What does this mean? There are probably several ways to interpret this, but I think the most likely one is an "eye test" statement that has often been used to describe a big body playing with a more skilled guy: Hartnell gave Giroux more room. In return, Giroux controlled the puck better and set up Hartnell for shots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I like Hartnell, just not at that number and certainly not for the length left on that deal. VLC says hello. Why couldn't we have traded Vinny for Umberger??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 VLC says hello. Why couldn't we have traded Vinny for Umberger??? Because the new Euro GM of the Jacket's is not a total moron? lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanflyer Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Because the new Euro GM of the Jacket's is not a total moron? lol. Nor is John Davidson. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruxpin Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Because the new Euro GM of the Jacket's is not a total moron? lol. Speaking of morons, I wonder if we could trade Vinny to Pittsburgh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJgoal Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Rutherford is open to dealing their first. Think it would be straight up? Or would he throw in Maata to make it fair? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jammer2 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Come on Trader Jim, make your mark....trade us Matta for Vinny and the rights to Billy Tibbets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I'm not particularly upset. I just don't think it was a particularly good trade. ymmv. I know you think that it is a bad trade. How getting a better contract, better defensive player, and a pick a bad trade? Explain that to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackStraw Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I know you think that it is a bad trade. How getting a better contract, better defensive player, and a pick a bad trade? Explain that to me. I've already gone through that, at some length, in this very thread. Like I said, ymmv. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 Lets not go overboard... his cap hit is nearly the same for the next 3 years and the 4th pick is nothing. The only benefit is defense and a shorter term... other than that (which does us nothing for the next 3 years) we lost the deal. So what you're saying is that we got a better contract situation, a better defensive player, and one more pick than we had a day ago....and you think we lost? This isn't the NBA. Picks outside of the top 3 (picks, not rounds) have value. Feel free to peruse this list: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1684892-every-nhl-teams-best-draft-steal-from-the-past-20-years. It might put your mind at ease. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fanaticV3.0 Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 I hated him too, but understand his role. I said he was tough to play against. I never said I thought everyone was scared of him. You'd have to be a complete idiotic numbskull to think I said that. (pretty good fanaticism, huh?) So is Zac Rinaldo. It's a good thing we still have him, because without Hartnell's toughness to preserve our legacy.....oh wait. For a guy who hates the way this organIzation does business, you sure do bitch about it a lot when they do something different. I think they could trade for somebody you were openly pining for and you'd still complain about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyercanuck Posted June 24, 2014 Share Posted June 24, 2014 So is Zac Rinaldo. It's a good thing we still have him, because without Hartnell's toughness to preserve our legacy.....oh wait. For a guy who hates the way this organIzation does business, you sure do bitch about it a lot when they do something different. I think they could trade for somebody you were openly pining for and you'd still complain about it. So you're saying Zac Rinaldo is better than Hartnell? (see what I did there, another fanaticism) To reiterate what I've previously posted in this thread....I was surprised Hartnell waived his NTC, I think Hartnell is tougher to play against than Umberger, but that it's a good deal in the end, Hextall seems like he's looking ahead, maybe another deal coming, Hartnell is a good guy, it's a good deal in the end, Giroux will now have a linemate he can pass to, maybe a good break for Schenn, and Hextall actually got a pick instead of throwing one away.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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