Is this the year Cooter and B. Schenn become NHLers ?

[fanaticV3.0]

I hear you on the actual scoring, but honestly, when I was watching all the crappy games they were losing at the beginning of last year, Coots was the only one who looked like he was seeing the ice and moving the puck.

  The guy can really control play and carry the puck on a transition.  His size helps, but he's got great vision. 

 

I said then and I stand by it now, but Mason's play notwithstanding,  he was easily the team's MVP until G starting to turn on the scoring faucets.

 

By the end of the season I think he was still the third most important Flyer to take the ice every night.  Judging by his minutes per game, Berube seemed to think so too.

 

I don't really have a problem with saying he was one of the better players on the team last year, but again, in order for him to be called a good two-way player, there needs to be solid elements to both aspects of his game. His offense isn't horrible, but one 19 game goalless drought, one 17 game one, and a few of 7 or more are too many.

[ruxpin]

That would make them worse than last year. Why do you think they a worse than last year?

I could be wrong, but I think most of the kids had career years for points. Schenn, Coots, Voracek, and Simmonds all took a step forward in that department (and Coots emerged as a pretty solid defender too). Do you think one or more of them take a step back? Is Mason a concern for you? I do admit though the Flyer fan in me thinks it's very possible Mason looks like every other goalie we've ever had in my lifetime by 10 games into the season.

Bolded part first and then the second part.

First, fair question. This will sound like I'm contradicting myself (wouldn't be the first or last time) but for me it's not as much that they've gotten worse;a lot of it is that I don't think they've gotten as much better as some of the immediate competition around them. I think they'll keep it interesting and will be close to the end but ultimately fall short. Not tank. Just fall short.

The contradiction is that despite what I just said, I do feel like they won't be as good.

Everyone here knows I was never a big fan of Hartnell. I just read your (accurate IMO) description of Couturier and the same hot/cold thing could go for Hartnell, too. But whatever Hartnell was or wasn't, I don't think they've replaced it. They can window dress Umberger all they want but I view that deal solely as Hextall attempting to get out from Holmgren's salary idiocy.

Probably the most important player on the team this year (aside from Mason) in terms of performance will be Schenn. If he can fit in on the first line wing and produce then maybe we're okay. Call me skeptical. If not, we're back to too many centers (VLC) playing in silly roles.

The talk is moving Couturier to center the second line. I really like Simmonds. I don't like Couturier with Simmonds. A bunch of nice pieces that still don't go quite right together. IMO

All this to say the offense can probably hope to be mediocre or slightly above average. This might be sufficient in a team with a very good or even just good defense. The problem for me is that we're coming into the season just kind of praying things go well enough for the defense to be average (not optimistic).

Sum this up and then add a defense first guy who will shortchange offense in favor of defense when he doesn't really have a particularly good crew (not intended as a knock on the coach) and I see us as an also ran.

_________

Okay, Mason. Your assessment is pretty close I think. I like Mason and he's carried us in stretches but time will tell.

After all, last year was coach) and GM), this year is goalie, right?

[fanaticV3.0]

Bolded part first and then the second part.

First, fair question. This will sound like I'm contradicting myself (wouldn't be the first or last time) but for me it's not as much that they've gotten worse;a lot of it is that I don't think they've gotten as much better as some of the immediate competition around them. I think they'll keep it interesting and will be close to the end but ultimately fall short. Not tank. Just fall short.

The contradiction is that despite what I just said, I do feel like they won't be as good.

Everyone here knows I was never a big fan of Hartnell. I just read your (accurate IMO) description of Couturier and the same hot/cold thing could go for Hartnell, too. But whatever Hartnell was or wasn't, I don't think they've replaced it. They can window dress Umberger all they want but I view that deal solely as Hextall attempting to get out from Holmgren's salary idiocy.

Probably the most important player on the team this year (aside from Mason) in terms of performance will be Schenn. If he can fit in on the first line wing and produce then maybe we're okay. Call me skeptical. If not, we're back to too many centers (VLC) playing in silly roles.

The talk is moving Couturier to center the second line. I really like Simmonds. I don't like Couturier with Simmonds. A bunch of nice pieces that still don't go quite right together. IMO

All this to say the offense can probably hope to be mediocre or slightly above average. This might be sufficient in a team with a very good or even just good defense. The problem for me is that we're coming into the season just kind of praying things go well enough for the defense to be average (not optimistic).

Sum this up and then add a defense first guy who will shortchange offense in favor of defense when he doesn't really have a particularly good crew (not intended as a knock on the coach) and I see us as an also ran.

_________

Okay, Mason. Your assessment is pretty close I think. I like Mason and he's carried us in stretches but time will tell.

After all, last year was coach) and GM), this year is goalie, right?

 

As far as free agents or trades, I agree, they didn't go out and do anything that would (or theoretically should) make them noticeably better.

 

I also have to admit that I'm banking on them making the PO (and not doing much more than that) based on the fact that they did last year and have the same core players. It's based on them duplicated and possibly even growing (and not anything new, I agree). That could be an incorrect assumption.  If Schenn, Couturier, Simmonds, Voracek, and Mason struggle, they are absolutely ****ed. Now I'm sort of worried. Thanks a lot, ya big Richard (don't wanna get in trouble on my 2nd day back).

 

Couturier on the 2nd line?! That's madness imo. He is in no way, shape, or form offensively capable enough yet to play with someone who someone who can score 60 points a year (real second liners). Schenn and VLC, even with their struggles, are simply better suited for that position, given their skill set. Plus, him, Read, and Raffl are damn near perfect together imo.

 

If that is true, I don't have the faintest idea why they keep putting guys in positions not suited to them. They did that a lot last year. VLC on the wing, Raffl playing int he top 6, I hate crap like that. Aside from the very rare exceptions to the rule, play guys where they belong.

 

Hartnell/Umber.

 

I had my issues with Hartnell, particularly in the past, but I grew to accept him. He was stupid, but like you said, they haven't replaced what he brought; whatever that might be. I like Umberger. I always have. I love the way he used to "intercept" passes from the opposition when he was here before and could chip in a little offense. Neither are great players, but I don't mind having either on my roster either. Truth be told, I don't think replacing one with the other makes you a better team. They are both good at different things, but neither makes your team. Both of them together makes you deeper though. I would have liked to have had them both to be honest.

[Podein25]

He [Couturier] is in no way, shape, or form offensively capable enough yet to play with someone who can score 60 points a year (real second liners).

 

This statement is way too strong/overstated. 

[mojo1917]

This statement is way too strong/overstated. 

back to back 96 pt season in jr and the second was shortened because mono definitely says he has some offensive ability. He has not been relied upon nor expected to be a top scorer in the NHL to this point.  if he gets the right mindset he could definitely be a Ron Francis type player, I'd be fine with that.

[Podein25]

back to back 96 pt season in jr and the second was shortened because mono definitely says he has some offensive ability. He has not been relied upon nor expected to be a top scorer in the NHL to this point.  if he gets the right mindset he could definitely be a Ron Francis type player, I'd be fine with that.

 

Agreed. He hasn't even turned 22 yet. His shot could use some work and we know his skating still needs to improve, but the notion that he lacks the two or three other things that go into being "offensively capable" - vision/hockey IQ and passing/playmakiing - is absurd. He has them in spades. 

[fanaticV3.0]

This statement is way too strong/overstated. 

 

Like hell it is. He's proven nothing at the NHL level (offensively speaking). 13 goals, 39 points. This is not a 2nd line center material. Look at his game log. There's a lot of zeroes in that first column and it wasn't just from that one funk during the beginning of the season.

 

@mojo1917 his juniors stats mean nothing now.

[Podein25]

Like hell it is. He's proven nothing at the NHL level (offensively speaking)

 

But that wasn't your statement. Your statement was that he was :

in no way, shape, or form offensively capable enough

 

We're talking about his capability. He has been used almost exclusively as a checker against the game's top players, he plays top PK minutes and has seen hardly any PP time. What he is capable of, playing against lesser players, playing regular PP shifts, we don't actually know. But we know he scored 96 points as a 17/18 year old in the Q playing against 20/21 year olds. So yeah, it's an overstatement.

[mojo1917]

@mojo1917 his juniors stats mean nothing now.

 

I realize that 14 must do it (score) at the NHL level and to this point he has not.  that fact is not lost on me.

Having said that, the fact that he has scored at high levels playing against his peers makes me think that he has the acumen for offensive minded play.

the whole past performance predicting future results type thing is at work when I consider this, it is not unreasonable to think that Couturier has the tools to be a really good hockey player that can score when given the opportunity.  To this point in his NHL career he hasn't been given many opportunities to be that player. I wonder what kind of numbers he would have if he were given Brayden Schenn's offensive zone starts vs weaker opponents.  If given those kinds of opportunities I think we will see 14's offensive output increase, he is one of the better stickhandlers on the team and is learning to use his frame to his advantage.  I think he'll be a top 30 player in the league when he reaches his prime.

[jammer2]

Like hell it is. He's proven nothing at the NHL level (offensively speaking). 13 goals, 39 points. This is not a 2nd line center material. Look at his game log. There's a lot of zeroes in that first column and it wasn't just from that one funk during the beginning of the season.

 

@mojo1917 his juniors stats mean nothing now.

 

Like hell it is. He's proven nothing at the NHL level (offensively speaking). 13 goals, 39 points. This is not a 2nd line center material. Look at his game log. There's a lot of zeroes in that first column and it wasn't just from that one funk during the beginning of the season.

 

@mojo1917 his juniors stats mean nothing now.

 

 

 These statements will be proven wrong. He has an absolute boat load of untapped offensive potential. I think he gets in the mid 50's point wise and makes a run at the mid 60's the following year....and then there is still room for him to grow and evolve. He will eventually be very close to Patrice Bergeron in production and all round game. The points will come. When the points do come, the Flyers will have a noticeable advantage, because Cooter will have then earned more ice time....which will mean the other teams skilled players on the 2nd line will be effectively shutdown.

[aziz]

Agreed. He hasn't even turned 22 yet. His shot could use some work and we know his skating still needs to improve, but the notion that he lacks the two or three other things that go into being "offensively capable" - vision/hockey IQ and passing/playmakiing - is absurd. He has them in spades. 

 

sure, but turning those into NHL production is a whole other story.  imo, his skating requires that he stay goal side (defensive goal side, that is) of the puck at all times, and that is and will be a mill stone around the neck of his offensive contribution.  the exception being PP time, and i'd love to see him get more of that.  then again, he is a primary penalty killer, and i don't want that to lessen were his PP time to increase, so.....

 

i'm good with couturier being a defensive/possession specialist.  he does it better than most, and provides a ton of value to the team because of it.  if he tops out at 50 points, that's fine.  he has a very very important role to fill, and there are other guys who can rack up the points.

[ruxpin]

Agreed. He hasn't even turned 22 yet. His shot could use some work and we know his skating still needs to improve, but the notion that he lacks the two or three other things that go into being "offensively capable" - vision/hockey IQ and passing/playmakiing - is absurd. He has them in spades.

In fairness, fanatic also used the word "yet" He hasn't even turned 22 yet. Not that he is not capable period, ever, end of story, flush him. Just that he is not ready yet.

I haven't seen him since game seven against the Rangers. I don't know what he has or hasn't improved or worked on over the summer. But based on the skating, etc. we saw up to the end of last season, I don't think "not yet" is a bad statement. At 22,that doesn't have to mean "ever."

[Vanflyer]

Players like Couturier are worth their weight in gold for their ability to do things that unfortunately don’t earn points in fantasy leagues.

 

I put this on another post- and for the life of me, there was a quote by a veteran Flyer player that Coots is one of the smartest hockey players he has ever seen. 

[Vanflyer]

Sure, it would be nice if he was also a 50-goal scorer, but it would be nicer still if more forwards could match his shut-down defensive talents, or at least make the most of the protected minutes they enjoy by virtue of Couturier’s work neutralizing the league’s top lines.

 

He will never be a 50 goal scorer at the NHL level. But 25 is within reach. He has good offensive skills. The thing is that he is SOOO good as a shut down forward that the offense is not asked of him. I think you put it in your post, what he does off the score sheet is worth his weight in gold. 

 

The only think you forgot to mention is that he is only 21 years old. 

 

I would take 12 of him for my team every day of the week. 

[Vanflyer]

I completely agree with this, but was giving myself room to hedge my bets with the "he's still young" crowd.

He's not a kid anymore but does still have room to grow yet where you could justify the "give him time" argument.

 

JVR is 25. Just saying. 

[doom88]

JVR is 25. Just saying.

Reported

[flyercanuck]

JVR is 25. Just saying. 

 

JVR is 25. Just saying. 

 

 

Yip. And still disappearing when it counts. Mind you its not so noticeable when he's playing on an entire team of invisibility at crunch time.

[Podein25]

@aziz

I found your comment about Coots possibly having to remain goalside all the time due to his poor skating interesting.

But I don't think that's how it works. He's a smarter than average player with elite level instincts. These instincts are neither offensive or defensive in nature per se. They relate to getting the puck. He's going to be where he needs to be to get the puck, defend the puck, advance the puck etc

[doom88]

@aziz

I found your comment about Coots possibly having to remain goalside all the time due to his poor skating interesting.

But I don't think that's how it works. He's a smarter than average player with elite level instincts. These instincts are neither offensive or defensive in nature per se. They relate to getting the puck. He's going to be where he needs to be to get the puck, defend the puck, advance the puck etc

I think the point was, he's not fast enough to get back if caught even semi deep.

[aziz]

He's a smarter than average player with elite level instincts. These instincts are neither offensive or defensive in nature per se. They relate to getting the puck. He's going to be where he needs to be to get the puck, defend the puck, advance the puck etc

 

sure, but those instincts also involve being able to recover should he be unable to get the puck.  that's one of the impressive things about him: he seems to be able to keep multiple outcomes in mind and be prepared for all of them.  including positional coverage should the puck be turned over.

 

honestly, i don't know if it is couturier keeping himself in what he knows is a safe position or if berube has given him instructions.  i do know that he very rarely gets involved in a forecheck below the hashmarks.  i think that is a significant reason his offensive production isn't where we think it could be, but it also keeps him where he needs to be to not get caught should the play change direction.

 

if couturier chases the puck below the goalline and doesn't come out with it, that is an odd man break against.  every time.  nice thing is he very rarely does that.  watch him in a month, as the flyers enter the offensive zone, he curls off at the faceoff dots and provides high support from there.  it's a good thing, but it limits how directly he is involved in offensive creation.

 

he has elite instincts, i agree.  he also has a large scale flaw in well below average acceleration.  from there, he has a choice to make:  pursue offense at the risk of odd man rushes against, or sacrifice offense for safe and consistent defensive coverage.  his wheels simply don't allow him to do both.  i believe his instincts inform what appears to be his decision, at least so far in his career.  i'm not entirely sure i want him to revisit that.

[Podein25]

I think the point was, he's not fast enough to get back if caught even semi deep.

Yeah, I get that. But the notion that because of that he would never act on his (very good) offensive instincts, is silly. And that's not how hockey players think.

[doom88]

Yeah, I get that. But the notion that because of that he would never act on his (very good) offensive instincts, is silly. And that's not how hockey players think.

I'm not so sure. I think his role superceedes offensive instincts, but I do get what you mean.

[aziz]

Yeah, I get that. But the notion that because of that he would never act on his (very good) offensive instincts, is silly. And that's not how hockey players think.

Two things. One, I don't think it all that silly to think a player might take his weaknesses into account when deciding how to get involved in a play. In fact, i'd expect a player with strong instincts to weigh options based on factors like that more than the average guy. I can't figure out what "hockey players don't think like that means," unless you are implying they don't have any kind of risk/reward consideration as plays develop. Which strikes me as... silly.

Two, watch him. For what ever reason, couturier rarely ventures below the offensive zone faceoff dots. Whether it is because of the doesn't-want-to-get-caught thing I'm suggesting, or a fear of zamboni doors, I couldn't tell you. I'm leaning towards he knows his limitations and doesn't want to risk getting trapped. Could be wrong. Zamboni doors ARE intimidating.

[Vanflyer]

 i'm not entirely sure i want him to revisit that.

 

Shoen Podein says hello. 

[aziz]

Shoen Podein says hello.

Hi, shjon!

Didn't think he'd recognize me.